Hi! I am new and have questions about applying to DYS (mainly :)).

We are missing the cutoff for Verbal by a tad on the WPPSI for DYS. What would you all advise? I know he must be 5 to apply.

Should we wait until he can take a WISC so we can get a more realistic number for those subtests where we had ceiling issues? Should we retest next year with another WPPSI? I'm unsure of what we would include in a portfolio to go that route.

On the otherhand are his scores just too low on the IQ test meaning he is likely not PG and we should enjoy the other resources like the Forums here instead?

He is our first child and it has been difficult to know what we have and how to handle situations that keep coming up already (like teachers complaining he's distracted and him complaining he is bored and doesn't want to be there).

We have only begun taking "gifted programs" this summer and already I am feeling that even in this identified population we still don't quite seem to fit and he sometimes gets bored.

Glad for any advice or words of wisdom from you more experienced parents.

He's way too young for you to draw the conclusion that he's not PG. You have a couple of data points for a young child, that's it. I honestly have no idea what DYS is, though.

DYS is the Davidson Young Scholars program. It is run by the Davidson Institute for Talent Development, the same folks who bring you this forum.

Go ahead and apply. The worst they can say (and probably what they *will* say) is "need more info."

My ds was tested at 5y5m and was just short on his WPPSI (148 FS) but had qualifying WIAT reading and math. They asked for more info. I sent in a pretty strong portfolio a few months later, and he was accepted with that.

I included a few work samples (not crazy advanced); a few pictures he'd drawn with odd things in them (a landing spot labeled "surface," a hurricane with the eye and eye-wall labeled, a few photos, and two videos: one of him talking about tornados, his erst-while obsession, and one of him talking through a math worksheet. The math one wasn't crazy advanced, but his fluent reading of the word problems and his enthusiasm both showed. Send me a PM if you want to see what I did.

Good luck! No harm in applying.

Thanks! And Mia, I may take you up on that offer.I'm wondering if it matters that our testing was done at 4 (instead of 5 or later). It seems hard with the little ones to know what to submit or really even to mentally differentiate between the gifted levels. When I was a kid you were either gifted or not.

My child scores highly on IQ math but just avg on the achievement
side of math. He is crazy verbal and loves to build and invent "tools" to accomplish tasks. On the other side his fine motor skills are lagging which is what makes work products most difficult for a portfolio.

Entering the program at 5.5 what aspects of the DYS services have been most useful to you?

This is a frustrating situation, and the reason why nowadays we don't talke about 'gifted or not' anymore. LOG (level of giftedness) makes such a difference.

Did any of the gifted schools look good?

I would encourage you to apply, and to send the 'raw data' along with the scores - that 19 could be 'barely 19 or an 'way way better' than 19' and could count extra.

Don't worry about fine motor skill and the portfolio - in the old days one had to be 'across the board' gifted to be 'gifted' but nowadays there is a much deeper understanding that some areas might be 'age appropriate' or even a bit below. Send in what you have - video of your child chattering away usually is impressive and fairly painless to get.

If your child isn't PG by DYS standards, then he is certianly HG, which is high enough to be bored by a 'regular G' curriculum (in my mind that is the definition of HG, actually)

What are you going to do with him from now until kindy?

Love and More Love,
Grinity

I am so happy to have your responses. Grinity you are a wise woman and excellent at getting to the point with all of this.I have enjoyed reading your posts in other threads.

I started to videotape him today. He read the magic school bus book about Climate (i.e. global warming)and then called his grandparents to "teach" them about making changes to emit less C02 "Greenhouse Gasses". I have three months till he's 5 so I've got some time to work on this.

That is good to know about the raw data! From what I had read on the site, I was afraid our score was just too low and we'd have to try again with an extended scale when he was older.

I like the idea of a 3 day program...Asynchronous Development really is difficult to work with at this age - it does get easier as our children grow (I think)

Is the 45 minute program the same 'JrK' ? It's ok that it might take them 6 to 8 weeks so see your son in detail, as long as he is happy and behaving.

I was clueless when my son was this age - I was working, he was in daycare and that was that! Sure the teachers would complain about strange behaviors, but he was there as part of my plan to 'make him regular and less like mama' - ha HA on me! I'm so grateful that he taught me exactly why I felt so 'wrong' in everyday life. And he may have learned some valuable lessons - who knows?

Anyway - the point is that when I look back and ask myself - if I knew then what I know now, what would I have done with him? And my mind draws a total blank!!!

So Flexibility is Key - and you are showing a lot of flexibility here - so you are on the right path.

Look up 'handwriting without tears' on the Internet and buy some of their stuff and keep plugging away. Think of it as a chance to practice 'calm assertive leadership' if you can't make it fun. Already at 3 my son was showing perfectionistic behavior about his handwriting skills, and begging me to 'draw a picture' for him - and I did, because I had no idea what I was seeing and he seemed so unhappy!

I also liked the Ed Emberly stick figure drawing books.

Stick around and write more books - those words are 'better out than in,' yes?

Smiles,
Grinity

Thanks! Yes it is great to get the words out in an understanding place. And I hope you are right that the Asynch improves over time somewhat.

Oh...? I'm not sure which thing you are referring to with 45 min program Grinity.

Handwriting without tears is such a GREAT program! Our Psychologist (who has been a wonderful resource to help me realize just what I am working with in my son and suggest some of our better options) said the handwriting was virtually non-existant and we possibly had a 2E kid on our hands. She recommended OT for him.

She got through to me...I immediately (as in calling the next day) enrolled him in an OT handwriting class and I ordered some HWT materials for home. The OT class showed us he loved mazes! (I had to find really complicated ones to keep him happy.) It didn't do much to improve the HW though.

However HWT was amazing! Night and Day difference that his Preschool teacher (at a church based regular preschool)was floored by. I went on the next month to take the full two day instructor training and I currently lack one course (in evaluation of handwriting issues)to being certified by HWT. I've started tutoring other children on the side.

My son can now write and draw recognizable things. It's still not his favorite thing to do but before he would simply refuse and say "I don't color" and writing was only scribbled out mess before. (Yes perfectionism was a MAJOR part of this for him too. He was able to tell me this when asked. He explained that he was trying to hide his writing/drawing with scribbles b/c it just didn't look good.)

I don't believe we would have figured out our son was so unusual had we not been getting information from my MIL and husband's aunt (both well educated teachers). At 5wks when they first met our son, they started telling us we were going to have trouble with school. (Of course my husband was doing Pre-Algebra in 1st grade so his mom had some experience with unusual children.)

So how did HW work out for you from that 3yr old moment where perfectionism held your son back? And how did you come to realize your son was so exceptional?

Does anyone know how many of the DYS kids are accepted at 5? It seems most start with this at an older age? Part of me says "don't rush things" and the other part says "the more we know now, the better we can support and prevent educational crises".

In regards to building a portfolio...Does anyone have suggestions on how do you make sure that videotaped items are understandable? Sometimes it's hard to catch what my son is saying on recordings.

I meant the school that was 45 minutes away - sorry!

It think it's great that you are taking the HWT training - there is a huge need to do handwriting practice with gifted kids! I bought 'The print tool' and have had success with 2 gifted kids in having them analyse their own handwriting using it's tools. I wonder if you can eventually do this over skype and be availible to all gifted kids with handwriting issues everywhere?

DS15 wasn't generally have many perfectionistic behavior - the writing and drawing was an exception. With him is was 'behavior issues' that signaled by 2nd grade that 'something had to be done.'

I don't think that there is a downside to applying to DYS at age 5 - I think most families don't do it because it's hard to realize that the child's issues are connected to high LOG giftedness at such a young age. Easier now with the Internet, if one is looking.

When I was growing up, giftedness was assumed in our family. I didn't understand that LOG could make such a difference.

Best Wishes,
Grinity

Hi!
I'm in the same exact boat, so I'll tell you our story.

My DS is also 4.5 and scored very similar to yours. He also got a 147 on the wppsi verbal, but his full scale was a couple points lower. Our gifted school is also quite a drive, but it would be the only option besides homeschooling. He was accepted for early kindergarten there, which is all day, 5 days a week. He would still need acceleration or differentiation there, as his strength is reading, and he is at least at a 4th grade level now.

We also have the added issue of many food allergies. This, along with the long days, plus a long commute are causing me to lean towards homeschooling, at least for k. We have a week left to decide, still not sure what to do.


Hopefully your school will grade skip your DS to k once they see him in action.



As far as DYS, we have achievement numbers but not the iq numbers, that pesky 150! Anyways, we are going to wait until 6 and test with the wisc, and apply then if the numbers are there. If not, we'll see how much we have for a portfolio, as we have nothing concrete right now. Mine also doesn't write well, and is in OT.


I'm not sure this was is any way helpful, but at least we can commiserate. Lol!

Hi Amber!

It is GREAT to hear about your DS and yes ...commiserate! I am really active in our MOMS Club here and it's hard not being able to talk to all our IRL friends about the struggles they don't understand.

Waiting on the WISC has been where I've been toying with things for DYS... I need to see how school goes to know if I need help NOW ...we haven't really done school yet (I don't count preschool as the purpose was mostly social). When I started thinking about it, I do have some things for a portfolio--like when he was asked to draw a person and he drew a woman with 3 "baby sacks" and babies inside her tummy and lines for the "blood paths". This was as a young 4.

We did have MAJOR handwriting problems. He wasn't writing ANY letters except O and X for most of the year. I ordered Handwriting Without Tears and in a month he was making recognizable letters. It was beautiful! I was so amazed, I took the HWT instructor workshops and started tutoring other kids too. His teacher was blown away by the change and encouraged me to order business cards to share with her other parents.

OT wasn't very helpful for us. I hope you have seen better results from yours. Does your son have a physical issue such as muscle weakness?

He is borderline low muscle tone. I don't think I've seen much improvement with the ot, but he didn't really "qualify" he tested at the low end of normal, so I'm wonder if I'm expecting too much of a change?

IMHO for the money they need to produce some results. For the OT experience we had, I wished they had done pre- and post-testing to show they were accomplishing something. For the cost of it, I generally felt it was worthless. (Not to say it is this way for everyone but it wasn't really working for us.)

When I did HWT, I just ordered some items off the hwtears.com website--pretty affordable prices. I could kick myself for money wasted on OT that really wasn't needed in our case. After I did HWT with him just a few times, I realized that for my son it was really more conceptual and muscle memory that he needed. He'd been taught poorly, in a non-developmentally appropriate format and in a way that made him feel like a failure. When I did HWT w him, he made the letter successfully (even to his perfectionistic eyes) several times before he wrote it the first time... it set him up for success and it was fun--he would even ask to do lessons. He loved it and was so proud of what he could do.

Hopefully I'm not beating a dead horse here but it was such a wonderful thing for my kiddo that I get really excited talking about it. If you feel the same about your OT, you might check it out. I'd say for less than an OT session you might be able to "cure" him with HWT.

Grinity,

I missed replying here. I think HWT for Gifted is a great niche and Skype is a very cool idea! I still like one on one the best though. What I get out of it is their joy over their success and the lightbulbs going off when they get it. That means the world to me. I guess it might not "feel" the same long distance. I just generally wish Jan Olsen had come up with HWT when I was little because I spent years and years struggling unnecessarily. The least I can do is share it with others. Handwriting doesn't have to be the awful ordeal some have experienced.

Thanks for all your help with my questions! We have such a long way to go till 15... Always fabulous to hear about the paths others have taken. I know it flies by too fast.

Me too. Between that and spelling, it was easy for me to fool myself into believing that I was 'dumb.' I think that for females, having messy handwriting is very 'role-dissonant.'

Keep enjoying what you are doing! Put in a few adverts at state gifted events, and see what arises.

Smiles,
Grinity

Ok crazy question. Would HWT help me improve my handwriting as an adult? I probably actually do need OT... My handwriting was always appalling, I now know that I have low tone and should have had OT as a child. But I didn't, and on top of that my handwriting devolved even further during my last pregnancy and has just not bounced back at all. It's really quite mortifying writing notes to my children's teachers some days.

Not a crazy question at all! I can't promise what HWT could do for an adult but I can tell you how it helped me.

I was the daughter of an Elementary School Teacher with PERFECT teacher handwriting and I was a "hopeless" case. I always held my pencil wrong. I was put in Special Ed in Elementary school to "help my handwriting". They tortured me with every possible device to correct my grip (which was "fisted" in 1st grade). I still remember getting straight C's in 5th grade for "handwriting" which I felt was so unfair since it was not taught and no assignments given and I had no chance to improve. All else were A's in my gifted program.

I spent 2 days at a handwriting workshop to train HWT instructors to learn how to help my son and other children. Day one was PreK, Day two K-5. On day two, I called my mother nearly in tears... the way they taught... I GOT IT! I had written PERFECT cursive in a practice we did (it was combinations like "or" and "ar", "wo", etc). It had been impossible for me my whole life and in a few hours, I COULD DO IT!! I handwrote a cursive letter to my mom that night. She could not believe it. Now I practice a little here and there so it is becoming more natural and less thinking... but with their methods and materials even I can have that clear and pretty handwriting I wished for as a kid.

Grinity-- you hit the nail on the head! It is TOUGH to be a GIRL with LOUSY handwriting. My mom, a MAJOR perfectionist, would unfortunately remind me how my handwriting "made me look stupid." Which was an extra help... She jokingly asked who I got to write the letter for me since she could not believe I wrote it. I'm one of 8 kids and the one with the truly atrocious handwriting... or was the one. I do need to get more involved in the Gifted World in my area. I expect to start having more of those opportunities now that my son is identified and old enough to begin participating in programs.

MumOfThree-- I hope that answers your question. It would be a pretty cheap option to try HWT. I know it has transformed me and my son. The books are inexpensive (like $7.50 US for a workbook) and you wouldn't need all the "extras" which make it fun for kids since you have your own motivation to do it. (Unless of course you have a child that could use it too b/c then you can get the extras and do it together! :)) It's written by an OT but loads more affordable than OT services.

We actually have HWT! I haven't fully jumped into it yet, since it's summer and all, but I think I'll get it out. We are 99% sure we will be homeschooling anyways, so there's no time like the present, right?

I have the chalkboards and books. I didn't get the wooden letter sets, are these necessary?

BTDT - I got lots of help from HWT, but before that I'd make 'teacher note pads' on my computer with check boxs - as in:

Dear Ms. (This year's teacher name),

_ will be picking up child early
_ wanted to check and see if child is turning in his homework
_ wanted to check and see if child is behaving himself
_ wanted to thank you for __________________

Sincerely,
Child's Mom

Yikes!
G