My son took the WPPSI III when he was 4.5. He has always been bright, seems to have a photographic memory, has been reading since 2, etc. Here are his scores. Note that he couldn't complete the coding section (and therefore doesn't get a full score) because he has weak fine motor skills (I guess this is common in gifted kids!) and is currently getting OT for it. Here are his scores:

Verbal IQ - 147 (99.9%) info - 17, vocab-18, word reasoning-18
Performance IQ - 144 (99.8%) block - 18, matrix- 15, picture concepts - 18
Processing Speed - symbol search - 15
Global Language Skills - receptive vocab - 13, picture naming - 19+

I know he doesn't meet the requirements for the program with these scores, however, once his fine motor skills are better, is it worth taking the WISC to see where we are again, or is he not likely to meet the requirements? I was just wondering your thoughts before I think about our next step. Thank you so much for your help! These boards are so great- it's so hard to find information on gifted kids!

How old is he right now? Is he very ahead academically? If he is reading well or doing very well with math; I would consider getting achievement testing done and then submitting the results for consideration for the YS program.

Some testers calculate the prorrated FSIQ w/o the coding section and I am pretty sure that number would be over the magic 150.

I would consider giving him the WISC when he is 6. My dd did not do very well in the WPPSI, but she had a very irregular testing experience. The academic gap from her to her peers only increased with time so we retested with WISC when she was ~7. That and qualifying AT (achievement testing) got her accepted.

My younger one tests very close to the DYS requirements in the WPPSI (like your son in the 99.9%)but we won't retest her unless/until she is much more ahead academically OR if we had reason to suspect some LD (learning disability).

Thank you for the reply! He will be 5 in June, so he is still very young. We had the test done this fall. He has been reading since before he was three, and is now currently reading around a fifth grade level. He LOVES science, and can devour "things that work" books about machines, flight, space, etc.- all non-fiction. He is also very good at math and reasoning. He had a tough time sitting still for the test, so I think when he's older and more focused, his scores may improve. We are in MA and trying to find a good Kindergarten program for him, but it's very challenging! Thank again!

I should have read your post before I posted my own, our kids sound very similar.

Did your child do better on the WPPSI than on the WISC? Why do you think that is? I thought the WPPSI was "easier?" thanks

Was that question for me? If so, my child did better at WISC, significantly so. We felt that WPPSI did not reflect what we were seeing at home and the issues with the testing experience casted doubts.

Yes, I was wondering about that. I thought the WPPSI was "easier" than the WISC. I think the WISC is a very long test (?). But you felt the WISC was a better test for your child than the WPPSI. Did you try a different tester?
I think some of these testers are great and others are just trying to push your child out the door.

I don't think it's so much that the WPPSI is "easier" but rather that there is a lot of instability in testing young kids. Some kids who do very well on the WPPSI score much lower on the WISC at an age where IQ results are somewhat more stable -- like 8 or 9. Some kids who do poorly on the WPPSI and better on the WISC. Some kids do great on both.

Given that the WPPSI is shorter and kids who are 4 are more squirmy, results don't necessarily predict what a kid will look like years later.

The instability is a big issue with the young kids just by nature of their age and uneven development. Also, you have more chances of the child goofing up, getting tired, wanting out, etc.

Another difference is that the WPPSI relies more on crystallized intelligence (that is knowledge already acquired) than the WISC. So a child who just by nurture has been exposed to more vocabulary and information will outperform similarly smart kids that have not. These smart kids will probably "catch up" in those areas in due time.

Neither test is too long, at least I don't think so. The number of sub-tests used in the wPPSI increases with age. WISC doesn't change in that sense.

We absolutely tried a different tester as I said, the first one did not handle things well from our perspective (was somewhat confrontational to my child while I was still in the room and they were building rapport).

The report from the first tester was somewhat generic or rather formulaic. Child is _ years and __ months old and lives with ____. She has attended preschool since ___. In many phrases it seemed like she was just filling the blanks. The second tester presented a more descriptive portrait of my child. She included many observations of how she handled the test, what she could see in personality, approaches to problems, etc.

I see what you mean.
My son has been in a Montessori preschool/kindergarten for 2 years. It is 100% Montessori, private school. He does very little reading and writing there; we have worked with him at home to get him reading, which he is doing well at.
However, I do think his Montessori is not very good at verbal things, getting kids to read, etc. At least half of the kindergartners finish that year unable to read. He did great on the nonverbal part of the test and good but not great on the verbal. I'm wondering if that is related to the school background.

My child has and IQ of 90 and Adaptive Behavior Composite score of 65. What do these numbers tell me?

You might want to start a separate thread to get more specific information regarding your situation. Why did you have your child tested, how old is s/he, and do you have any information other than those numbers (subtest scores, the tests used, etc.)?

In general, an IQ of 90 would be in the low average area -- somewhere around the 40th percentile. I don't know much about the Adaptive Behavior score and what that means.

Sunshiny,
I would apply with those IQ scores if you have achievement scores that are at qualifying level. YSP doesn't require good fine motor skill, but there isn't anthing like a GAI (general abilities index) for WPPSI as there is for WISC. GAI takes Verbal and Performance IQ together, and IF WPPSI had such a score, you son's would undoubtably be over the 150 mark.

Obviously I can't guarantee that YSP will see it that way, but with supporting Achievement Data, I think your kid is a shoe in. (Dottie has more experience with actual numbers, so if she disagrees then I back down.) The whole point is to find kids who 'test so high that the tests can't really measure it' and that's what I see when I look at your son's test scores.

Do you have achievement test scores?
Smiles,
Grinity

And I have no basis for saying this other than my personal opinion, but I'd totally agree with Grinity especially given the achievement level you are describing. That sounds like a solidly PG kid to me.

Yep. The way I see it you could do a couple of things. Get your video camera ready and start saving everything he is doing so that you can start working on a portfolio. Or, you could do achievement testing which would most likely be at the >145 level and then send those two together.

The worse thing that can happen is for them to say that they need more information.

Thank you all for your replies! Grinity - We haven't done any achievement testing. Do you think this is something that we should do now, or wait a little bit? I don't know much about this kind of testing! I have read before that if your child has many 17, 18 or 19 subset scores on the WPPSI, that they would probably get a higher score with the Stanford Binet L-M. Do you have any experience with this test? Is this something we should consider? Thank you again!

The GDC in Colorado is one of the few places where the SB-LM is still in use. It is an outdated test and its continued use is not withouth controversies. I remember reading a lot about the advantages of it when we tested for the first time a few years ago.

I think achievement testing (regardless of the application) is a nice complement to the IQ test. It is also something that schools might understand better than the IQ scores, particularly people who still have the sense of the older tests with the higher ceilings.

The most widely used AT are the WJ-III and the WIAT (I think they are in version III now?).

My dd loved doing AT.

I'd argue no on the considering the SB-LM. The SBLM will likely give you some really impressive numbers. Unfortunately, they are on an outdated test last normed in 1972, often available on ebay for private purchase. I really cannot figure out why any practice still uses this. The SBLM uses a different model of intelligence without valid current norms. It can generate big numbers for parents, but has no real purpose otherwise. In my experience, schools have a hard time understanding valid current tests, let alone controversial ones.

The whole point of IQ tests is to compare one child's performance to another's in order to give you a sense of "where is this kid?" (unless looking for LD, etc.). If there are no current norms, you are comparing your child's performance to children from 1972. Needless to say, some changes have happened since then. K is the new 1st grade and much more academic. Vocabulary, different social mores, computers, etc., have changed the cultural and intellectual landscape. What good does a comparison do to kids from the 1970s? How can that help you figure out what educational needs your child has in 2011?

If you are looking at DYS, the LM also won't do you much good. It isn't a test they take. They will, of course, be happy to have any data you submit but I don't think that a super high LM number would increase his odds of getting in. You could do the SB-5, the current version, and that could be of use in a DYS application.

In addition to what kaibab said above, if you aren't familiar with the Flynn effect, you might also want to google that. It will give you more info on why the use of such an outdated test doesn't tend to provide useful, accurate info.

My guess is that you were told that about the Stanford Binet V (five), which would have been a better choice for your child in the first place, but fewer tester are certified to perform it.

I think that the scores you have show a child who is 'mighty unusual' so I wouldn't recommend either SB-LM, or SB-V at this moment, perhaps around age 7 or if a reason comes up. If you are looking at the overall scores and not believing me that your kiddo is 'mighty unusual' ask the tester how often they have seen either score for verbal or performance, then ask how often they've seen a kid with both. Mighty unusual would be my guess.

I like the idea of getting the camcorder out, and I would suggest you go ahead and schedule the achievement test. It doesn't really give info on grade placement, but it's the go-to test to answer the question: 'pinch me - is what I'm seeing on the IQ test really true?' Which given your child's scores it the 'correct' reaction to be having. If you pick an achievement test that will also qualify for DYS, that's a great side benefit, and if you are going to apply, you may as well get it over with and done, before the IQ tests are old and out of date. Trust me, time flies and it's easy for these kinds of concerns to drift back into denial. Not that the behaviors or needs go away, it's just that we sort of forget that we already know the answer, often because the implications are so yucky - it means we have to tell all the local experts that they are just plain in the dark about our kid - yuck!

Yes, just spend the money, get the achievement test, and pray that 'whatever's best' will be the case. If the camcorder idea seems onerous, don't bother, but if it seems like what you'd be doing anyway - go ahead. Afterall, you owe it to your child to have some thing to share when the grandchildren start acting outside the norms, and the grown children what to know 'where did this come from? Have you ever seen a kid like this, Ma?'

Love and More Love,
Grinity

Thank you again for all the great replies! I'm going to call our psych. and see if I can get the achievement tests started. So even though he got a 147 and 144 on the verbal and performance, I thought this was only in the highly gifted level, not the PG or EG? Is this because he scored so high/hit the ceiling on the subtests? You also mentioned that if they just took those two scores, you think he would be over 150. How can he be over 150 if none of his scores are over 150? So sorry for all the questions, but there is so much to learn! THANK YOU!

Ok - imagine that one in a hundred people in a room are wearing red shoes. And that One in a hundred people in that same room have purple hats. How many people would you expect to have BOTH red shoes and a purple hat? None!

How many rooms of people with the same dressing habits would you expect to have to look through before you found the room with the person who was wearing BOTH the red shoes and the purple hat? Quite a few, right?

That's why those two unusually high scores are even rarer when found together.

Actually - you aren't asking a bad question. After all - if it really were possible to give a single number that compared the intelligence of a Einstien and Shakespeare, then a perfect IQ test would reflect that 'true intelligence' (called little g or 'g') and so would each of it's subtests! All the subtests would always be the same. But realistically - would you like to rank Albert Einstien vs. William Shakespeare? Not me! So we have variations on the idea of multiple areas where intelligence can be noted.

Hope that helps,
Grinity

It's so interesting how different Montessori schools are. The one my ds goes to has all the kids reading by the end of the kindergarten year, it's very rare they aren't. Have you talked to the teacher about his academic needs?

I have talked to the teacher and she keeps saying how great he is doing! We supplement afterschool with Singapore math and other workbooks, having him read out loud to us. I've been unimpressed with much of the Montessori system, except for math.

I know it really depends on the school. Does your son say he likes school? Mine does not. I think he's still dealing with a little seperation anxiety, and getting over having twins enter the family after he spent almost 4 years as an only child. We are trying to figure out what to do with him next year. He is a November baby so we have the K cut off to get around.

A note to the original question -- my ds-now-8 had very similar WPPSI scores at 5.5y, and qualifying+ achievement testing. When we applied to DYS the first time, they told us they needed more information since the IQ was close, but not quite.

I put together an admittedly very strong portfolio, with several videos of ds talking about his ertswhile passion -- severe weather -- and doing some math just for fun, along with a few written samples. That did the trick! Try the portfolio route with the scores you've got!