Hello,
My DS took the Stanford-Binet5 when he was 5yrs,3months. His FS IQ was 147 (141 non-ver, 149 verbal). After doing some research on the highly gifted and talking with a few professionals, we believed mainstream elementary school would not be a good fit (working 2-3 years ahead, etc.). We ended up at a well respected Montessori school. He was pretty happy the first couple years, but now his 3rd year in Lower El. has not been good. We decided to re-test to try for a special gifted school for next year. He just took the Stanford-Binet again (same psychol.), at 8ys, 2 months his FSIQ is 131 (122 non-ver, 138 verbal). Has anyone seen a drop like this? The psychologist said that the test does get much harder for 8-9 year old level. We're frustrated and confused. Any insight would be very much appreciated!
Thank you

This happened to us, but we used different testers.

After thinking about his reading level and comparing his abilities with his consistently 140+ scoring brother and other family members, we tested for a 3rd time using the SB-V (prior testing had been with the WISC). His score with that was the highest of the 3, but in the same neighborhood as his earlier high score. He does have somewhat uneven abilities but I don't have any doubt that his thinking skills relative to his peers are consistent with the higher scores.

I think one of your biggest clues would be the psychologist's attempts to reconcile the two scores. What did he/she say about this? With that kind of difference one of the test results is "wrong" and for what you probably paid each time you should have gotten some feedback on the discrepancy. I'm not saying it's anyone's fault, or that anything was done incorrectly, but the situation is a little sticky and I think it's reasonable to expect to be walked through it.

Hi NCmom,
It does seem that his current school situation might need a change. Does the Montessori school go up a few more grade levels? Might they be willing to put your son into the next classroom now? Even though the difference in scores is confusing, the main point is that 'gifted kids need special educational accomadations.' What specifically leads you to the conclusion that the current situation is bad, and how does the teacher, principal react when you talk about those observations?

Were the new scores high enough for the special gifted school? The school might be willing to look at both sets of scores to make their decision, maybe.

Best Wishes,
Grinity

We saw a similar drop with the WISC-IV over the course of one year. At 7.5 dd10 was around 148, if I recall correctly. At 8.5, she was around 128. We used different testers and the second one essentially told us that dd's abilities were "fluctuating." She also noted anxiety as a possible reason for the drop.

We had the WIAT-II achievement test done at the same time as the second test and a counselor dd is seeing now tells me that the WIAT scores are more in line with the first IQ than the second. The current counselor is leaning more toward, like Dottie said, the idea that the "truth" may be somewhere in between but she tends to think that dd is closer to the first score. I think that part of what is leading her that way is that, even with the big drop, dd had ceiling scores (18s, 19) on parts and she feels that moderately gifted kids usually score more in the 14-15 range.

In her instance, her scores qualify for a GT id at school either way b/c all they look at is the verbal index on the WISC for a reading/language arts id. She was at the 99th the second time and at the 99.7th the first on that index. Other tests are used for math and other ids and they won't consider full scale IQ or GAI for an id for some reason.

I just really feel that it is difficult to test the top of IQ. I never feel that these scores are as accurate as lower scores.

I believe that the test makers agree with you Ellipses
G

I think it might be more accurate to say, "Higher IQs don't mean as much as lower ones", since an IQ is actually just a score on a test and not a person's actual thinking ability.

If wishes were horses I'd beg them to let parents just chose which classes to put their kids in. If they earn a failing, oh well. They tried. And if they didn't try, oh well. That happens anyway. I don't think too many parents would keep their kid struggling where they don't belong. That's a better free education. It even reflects and aligns iself better with real life. But me sitting here complaining and criticizing ain't as useful as advice. The squeaky wheel gets oiled. Go down to that school and start talking to people there. Tell everyone who will listen about your circumstances. Tell them also what it is that you love about the school And exactly the reasons why you prefer your child to go there. Red tape and bureaucracies cuss cuss, it's always a real person making the decision in the end. Good thing too, because an algorythm or formula can't really judge a situation like this where the numbers are questionable and there's a unique human being's educational history to consider. Good luck finding a good place. Wishing you the best of luck. Ps and with test scores like that, you're not asking for a university teaching position, you're asking for a better elementary education. How advanced is this gifted program that you need a 150+ iq to be worthy of a chance to try. I doubt it. Scratch that, it was condescending, rude, and it's not like I'm trying harder than your local school is to provide your community with a gifted program. I'm just a keyboard commando putting 2+2 togeather that parents are saying the gifted programs aren't geared right for the 150 iq's and now you're telling me they're turning away 130 iq's, which is the perfect optimal gifted level and who would greatly benefit from their program.

I agree totally. Trying new classes and subjects is what makes a person a good employee and a great college student. In work, I have been thrown into places where I had to learn a new computer language or access method or application and we had to learn quickly. So many jobs are like this now. Give them a chance.

By the way, where are you from La Texican. I am originally from central and south Texas.

The problem with this is that, like you mention at the end of your post, the gifted programming winds up becoming something that doesn't even meet the needs of the "optimally" gifted in instances where it is essentially parental pressure that gets kids in. It seems that, rather than putting things together such that the standards in the accelerated classes remain high and kids who shouldn't be there fail, the standards change when they start getting filled with a different class of students. They are no longer gifted classes b/c the majority of the kids they are serving don't need that. They either become regular ed classes or they become faster/high achiever classes that move through the same curriculum more quickly but don't meet the divergent/different instruction needs of some of the gifted kids.

BTW, I just wanted to mention on a separate topic that I don't know what the "duplicate finder" link in the quote of mine above is in that I didn't put anything like that in my original post.

I just think you should be allowed to try stuff. And in this case there's already an unusual education history. If the mother thinks he can handle the class and she knows the school he's leaving has higher standards than the plain public school. She might be right. She might be wrong. Especially in this case because Montessori is self paced and gifted classes aren't, private schools have lower teacher:students and public schools don't. He really might sink in a public gifted class environment. The mother thinks the quantity of information in the public class won't be enough. Montessori does overkill in the amount. The gifted class could feed that sized appetite. She really needs to go talk to live people. This time it isn't just a test score it's culture shock to consider.
To me she doesn't sound like the pushy parent who would abandon here kid into a gifted class and tell the world to change for him. She sounds to me like she'd pull him out if she turned out wrong on this. She's probably one of those parents that, "the child's needs comes first.". And she'd pull him out and homeschool him somehow, if worse come to worse. Or move to a third world country and live without water if that was somehow best for the kid. But he has unusual educational needs, an alternative education history. There is no cut and dry place for him at this point. No easy answers. She already said she's worried. This is an enigmatic choice. (did I use that word right?). Oh, Lady, if you're going to go down there. Tell them what you can about how he did in the Montessori. Was his pace fast or meticulous? (aggression and precision are both nice, which way does his scale tip?) How does he surprise you and other adults with the things he comes up with at home?
I really like judging people and making up scenarios about them. I have an active imagination.

Oh. Dottie. I hope I didn't sound argumentative or make anyone feel bad. You are actually more knowelegable and experienced in these things than me is. I just wanted to say what I think the mother meant so maybe it would help her get her words togeather and verbalize her thoughts. I think even if I'm wrong maybe I help people a little by talking about what I think I hear them saying. But I have so many opinions I can't help but enjoy putting them into the conversation too. I liked your post. I never see much about your kid's since you're always so busy helping other people. I like your comments on your dd's classes.
Cricket too. I'm not saying anyone's opinion's wrong. I just said what I thought about it. I have so many opinions and they always change. They can't all be right. Is anyone else reading the wizard of quarks from the quantum physics thread? Opinions are like amplitudes. They're all valid. <3

NCmom -- there are so many posts over the years that ask this same question. For your individual situation, only you can judge which score seems most accurate. However, this is so common and so many kids score so ridiculously high on the SBV at 4 or 5 years old that I wonder whether the norms for the younger ages are just a bit off. I'm much more impressed with a 140+ score for a kid at 8 than I am for a 150+ score for a kid at 4 or 5. I think even if the norms were perfect, there is much variability still occurring and reshuffling of order that leads to big changes for many kids. IQ scores are not stable for 4 or 5 yo on any test and the SBV seems particularly unstable in that age group. Some kids who score 150 at 5 will also score 150 at 8, but many will not which leads to confusion and frustration for parents.

I like Dottie's idea that time and multiple sources of evidence reveals the most about a kid rather than any one particular score. Achievement testing might help you get a better sense. If the scores are 130-140ish, then the "truth" might be somewhere in the middle or closer to the later score. If the AT scores are wildly PG, then maybe the first test is more accurate. If what you see every day is obviously PG, then maybe the first test is more accurate.

It helps to remember that scores are quite fallible and personality and drive may determine academic needs more than test scores. A kid may test wildly PG and not require dramatic educational changes while another kid may test more moderately and need radical acceleration. If your son needs a different educational environment, then I'd address that need no matter what the test says.

I think it is a bit of a myth that there are "many kids" who are 4 or 5 and scoring 150 plus on SB5. My dd was tested by one of the best known testers of gifted kids in the US, she only uses SB5 for IQ testing and she had at that time, precisely 2 kids score in the 150s on SB5. My dd did scored in the 150s on SB5 at 5 and whilst I am no testing expert, the score seems to fit the kid that I deal with.

Back to the OP, I think you need to decide what score feels right to you. Was your DC having a good day? Did he rush the test? What did the tester say?

First, thank you so very much for all your feedback. I'm very thankful there is a forum like this.

His 131 score doesn't allow him to enter the special gifted school lottery. And with less than wonderful results this year from our current school that we can barely afford, we're looking at other options.

DS was recovering from Strep when taking the test and Dr. was rushing out the door to another appt. after the test...although, I don't think that accounted for such a change. He is probably somewhere in between the two scores. The Dr. said that test for 8 yr. olds is just that much less forgiving than for 5 yr.olds. With all that said, we (DH, I, and Dr.) decided to try another test (WISC?) next week. It will statify our minds at the very least. I'm not overly concerned about "the number", but realize it helps when trying to get accomodations.

Whatever the outcome, we will do all we can to be sure he gets an education that supports him intellectually and emotionally No need to rush him through any curriculum, just want him to be an environment that's right for him (a really smart, kinda lazy kid...but that's another post!

Hello,
Just wanted to follow up from my original post...looks like there have been a lot of views and wanted to follow up should our experience help someone out there

My DS took the WISC IV last week and ended up with 147 FSIQ (Verbal Comp 155, Percep Reas 139, Working memory 129, processing speed 121). Compared to the 131 on the SB V, the tester mentioned she doesn't see this difference often. A couple of areas on the SBV that aren't covered on the WISC may have contributed to the difference. He also took the WIAT III and are awaiting final report, but said he aced language/reading and got about 93% on math. We are now in the lottery for the gifted charter school And at the very least, be able to participate in the gifted program in the public school. Homeschool of some sort is also on the table.

Just a side note about Montessori. It has many wonderful aspects...but be careful about the "move ahead at their own pace" claim. To an extent it's true, but when you have 29 kids in a class, you still have to wait your turn for the next lesson...usually much longer than necessary for a gifted kid that doesn't need weeks of follow up time.