My DS7's Kindergarten teacher last year insisted he was gifted. I had him tested and he got a 121 on the OLSAT ( the required is 132 in his district to move on to the Cogat).

I decided it wasn't worth the gamble so I wanted to skip testing this year but his 1st grade teacher insisted he's gifted and who cares what the test says.. just get him tested so he can get into the program. So, I did and he raised his score by 12 points on the OLSAT and just made the entry mark but missed on the Cogat-- he scored a 124 (required 132).

I truly feel he's in the 150+IQ range just on sheer performance.. He's not been guided by any means but just can figure out how to read, do higher grade level math, etc.. he's always been full of endless questions and "great guesses" amazing feats of memory since he was 2years old, etc.. I guess all the landmark signs.. But he just can't pass the darned tests!!

Our family has many gifted people and many who have been tested from moderately gifted(me and his dad) to highly gifted-- my brother, my sis-in-law, and my uncle.. and profoundly gifted-- my cousin who was a violin prodigy... and many other cousins whose numbers I don't specifically know but based on personality I would say moderately gifted(a niece who is at Harvard).. SO,,, should I test again next year and hope that he passes the Cogat? Or am I just spinning my wheels? I mean, I guess considering he was able to increase his score on the OLSAT without any prep or practice shows maybe he just needs some maturity?? I don't know.. has anyone had a similar experience?

I know someone with experience will chime in here soon, but I wanted to ask if your son's school will accept outside testing? That might make a difference if you're wanting to test just to see if he qualifies for the school's gifted program. Of course, if you're just looking to get information on how your son learns, then private testing could be well worth it.

Thanks for the responses mnmom23 and CFK. I do wonder if my son would perform differently on an individual test rather than a group test. I would like to at some point do an individual test and privately to see if I can get a more accurate result. For now I've asked his teacher if it was possible to retake the Cogat portion only since it seemed to do the trick with the Olsat (taking a 2nd time). I'm really just anxious to have closure. If he's not going to be in the program I'd rather tuck it away and just let it go.

CFK-- I'm sorry if I was brushing off an IQ of 130.. You are right, people in this range can perform very highly. And looking at people in my family they seem to have less issues with fear of failure, motivation and perfectionism. I guess I have poor perspective since I was considered "average" growing up among my family even though I was in my school's G&T program. I realize now reading more about the topic how I probably had strengths in other areas and not necessarily the same strengths as other people.

I look forward to hearing if someone has had similar issues. I know the teacher last year(Kindergarten)told me another student several years ago didn't pass the test the first time and did the second time and then was so advanced in math(he performed binomial equations in 1st or 2nd grade) that his parents had to move him onto another school to meet his needs. I guess for whatever reason things like that can happen. She also told me in her personal experience that her own gifted son didn't pass the first time but did the 2nd time. My concern is that this is the 2nd time for my DS. Do I still keep plugging away? I guess I just want an answer. It's really bugging me. The other thing is that when my DS came home from taking the Olsat he insisted it was so easy and he only got one wrong on one portion and zero wrong on the next day's portion. His score of 133 really doesn't reflect that. Then when he took the Cogat he said he got one or 2 wrong. And again, his score 124 doesn't seem to reflect that either. I don't know what to think.

I know we didn't have the OLsat or Cogat when I was in school (I'm 40 years old). I remember it was the IOWA skills test. Maybe there was another one that I just don't remember but I do remember the IOWA one which was administered in 2nd or 3rd grade. Am I better off just waiting to test at a later grade? Also, I felt my score and my brother's(149IQ) were both higher than my son's Olsat and Cogat score. I guess that's also where I'm not having the proper perspective on things. Were the scores from long ago over-inflated or on a different scale? My violin prodigy cousin said when she was tested she took several types of tests and scored 157IQ--she's now 32 years old. Also, she mentioned she knew our uncle was tested when he was young (he's now 59 years old) and his result was 148IQ. All these numbers and different skills people have-- it's all very confusing.

I'm just worried my son will be disappointed about "not passing". When I told him his teacher this year wanted him to take the same test from last year he said-- why? I already did great on it last year-- although he did tell me he got "5 wrong" when he came home from the test and I thought,,hmm. that doesn't sound good. Also, when he took the Olsat this time he was grouped with 7 other kids.. only he and his best friend moved onto the Cogat. If his friend gets in the program I worry if my son may be upset. He's strangely competitive. It's difficult to deal with especially when I'm such an "underachiever" type personality. I hope to find closure soon. Thanks!

Maybe you can read the LOG of Dr ruf, it will give you a brief idea about the level of giftness

IQ150 means intelligent over one and half time of his age, for example

7 year old's cognitive ability is about 10-11 years old

if you think your son is gifted, most like you are right

http://www.dirhody.com/discanner/levels.htm

Ahh, well, I guess I'm the big bummer here, because I've never been wild about Ruf's estimates. I find them to be too fuzzy in some places (example: the overlap in IQs in her five groups) and overly restrictive in others (the tooth fairy for example, and reading chapter books; I've heard people here report that their PG kids didn't start reading until five, but were on novels within a year). Honestly, and maybe it's just me, but I can never make head nor tail out of her groups. I think they're a good start...but incomplete.

I suspect that she was using more than IQ to define her groups, but I wish she'd been more explicit, had WAY more study subjects and had done some statistical analysis.

I've always thought it would be beneficial to adjust something like the Denver II Test for kids at either end of the bell curve. Denver II is the test that shows when, say, 25% and 50%, etc, of babies start banging blocks together, or talking or walking, or whatever. It would be extremely useful and interesting (to me anyway) to have something that tells you when 0.1%, 1%...98% and 99.9% of kids do something.

Eep!

Val

There are lot of dicussion about Ruf's LOG here

Most people think: it can not replace of IQ test, but will help you for the over the GT denied or HG+ denied
It will give you brief idea about what level gifted kids doing at certain age.

If you read the whole book, it give very detail information about the behaviours of many GT kids

Some other people like to use grade level

like MG: 1-2 grade ahead
HG 3-4,MG 5,PG 6....etc, just rough guid

Probably it is good to re-test, bu private tester use standard test

My dd did not pass into the gifted programs using the tests they adminster at school either. Every teacher thought she belonged in the Gifted program. The gifted program gave her their paperwork and stuff but would not allow her to attend... I am still fuming about it all. She has all the "signs and symptoms" One thing I do know about the testing was that some of it is multiple choice and she has a hard time with multiple choice. She reads too much into the question. We had her privately tested with better results but the test results were over three standard deviations in the different sub categories. We did not use a tester that knew anything about gifted. I changed her schools by lucky chance she got into this cohort in a charter school. Over half the class tested into the gifted program. Her closest friends were in the 99+ range. It changed her school experience. I think that although I would love to have test results that really confirmed her abilities and what I see.. all the other stuff does so in my mind I consider her gifted and work with her as such and it seems to work. It is hard though because she is not eligible for things that I think she should be eligible for... I don't think that she is the equavelent of 150 IQ but I would say around 133-134. I have wondered though if I had known more, and treated her more with the awareness of gifted would she have shown more ability? She had a horrible time in school until 4th grade. She can not handle a challenge very well now at all. I feel bad, but I really did blame her for her not fitting in at school etc. I did not trust my mommy gut. When we made the school move and I saw how it changed her into this happy bubbly excited to go to school child I had a lot of self forgiving to do. I struggled and still do with that her best friends all get into the programs that she does not. I also struggle with not wanting her to "fail" the test again.

As for the Ruf book I also find that it is really unclear how she is categorizing the children and she really uses the SBLM test rather than the more current IQ tests.... The one thing I can say about the book is that it helped me feel like my kids were normal or not alone and I love reading some of what the kids did and finding my kids in them. Her end of chapter synopsis of what the kids can do in the different levels seems very different than when you read the actually stories about the kids. Reading the posts on this board has really helped.

I also have a brother with an IQ 149 and often wonder if this is a different rating scale than what they use now. More because that means that I may actually have a higher IQ than I have ever thought myself to have due to how it runs in families... However I also know that he was incredibly intelligent and sharp and fast so I do suspect that his IQ was high.

Flower

Funny I just came back from a meeting at school with headmistress where she said he is not gifted. Everybody knows he's gifted. He was tested on Wisc as having a raw intelligence of a 17 to (he's 10). Doesn't show up at school

Is he gifted? Yup. Everyone he meets is blown away by him (aprt from his teachers).I dont care what the tests at school are saying. I am sympathetic tho' for people who desperately need a 'score' to get onto a program they desperately NEED!

What would I do? Assuming the program accepted an independent test - I would cram the kid so he passed the test then try and relax.

The education system, and all that goes with it, as you American's say, sucks!

You are comparing old IQ tests to modern tests. They are both based on very different criteria. The former is a ratio test, the latter is based on normal distribution. Unfortunately it's pretty much impossible to compare them. Today's test give much lower numbers.

150 is truly a high number. It would mean that your child scores in the 99.96 % which is without any doubt a very impressive number. 130 is 97.7%

http://www.iqcomparisonsite.com/IQtable.aspx
(SD 15)

Your best bet would be to take your son for and individual IQ test and see if you can get the school accept outside results.

It took a lot of charts for me to understand that you can't compare old IQ to new IQ numbers! I have my testing results as a child when I was admitted into a special program for early college entrance (goal was high school done by 14). And I have my son's IQ scores which are 30 points lower... or so I thought. Yet I have my parents saying repeatedly "oh you're in so much trouble, he's so much faster and more logical than you were at that age!"

Basically, you just have to realize you're comparing apples and pumpkins. Totally unrelated to eachother but they both make nice bread :-)

Wow...I've had a very similar experience! My IQ was in an average range, yet I was able to increase all of my MSA scores if they did need increasing, and I, too, truly feel that my IQ is higher than a 97, as do my mom's numerous friends. I also think your son is gifted, and in my opinion, IQ scores don't thoroughly test your child on a multitude of areas: they only seem to care about critical thinking. It's great that he improved, though! ^^

Well if you believe that he's at 150, but performing at 125, then obviously there's a performance gap.

With great strengths, there are great weaknesses and it seems to me that the weaknesses are dragging the feet.

How's the emotional and spiritual development? Does he look happy? Is there something that fires his heart?

In my study of successful people, intelligence means nothing. It all depends on one's meaning in life and the passions that ignites the heart.

Find what you love and be the best you can at it.

What does he cling to, what's the thing he can't get enough of, or is endlessly fascinated by? I bet you a million dollars, it ain't IQ tests.

Don't need a fancy shmancy school or program to provide for his passions. Sometimes, a simple set of glass/plastic lenses will do just nicely. Tight budget? Try a eyeglass shop for throw away or defective lenses. He'll probably reinvent optical physics in a few years.

I'll agree wholeheartedly with the second sentence but beg to differ on the first. I don't care for what I do, yet I am quite successful at it and make a decent living to boot. I could not solve the problems that I do without my brain.

your path to success requires the brain that you have.

My position is that one only needs enough brains to be functional. Even loosing exactly half of the brain qualifies as functional (there's a case study out there and BBC covered it).

However, there are other paths or definitions of success that requires minimal brain power and in some cases, none at all (some may call them just plain lucky).

The average definition of success requires the average stock of intelligence. Those on the fringes will need to reevaluate their measure of success.

Dave Thomas of Wendy's fast food created his success without a high school diploma. Ken Robinson wrote about how great people found their epiphany, some of whom were hopeless in school and yet made millions of dollars.

In the realm of success, intelligence is generally overrated and mis-characterized. It's not that having intelligence makes people successful, it's really about life long learning.

A person with high IQ who stops learning after college will be quickly surpassed by a retard who persists in learning. Hard work and neuroplasticity generally take over. It's also interesting to note that neuroscience has determined that emotion is the activating agent for brain optimization and for strong memory. (the brain geeks out there can reference the BDNF gene)

The greatest memorizers in the world use the story method to attach some form of emotion to a huge pile of boring items to memorize.

After these foundations of success are in place, natural intelligence is a huge leverage. It's along the same lines as natural athletic ability.

The lack of a high school diploma isn't proof that a person isn't intelligent. It's only proof that a person didn't get a high school diploma.


Hmm. A lot of your message didn't make much sense to me. For example, I don't get this point at all.

Research has shown time and again that intelligence is the single most important predictor of success at almost anything. For example, the Armed Forces use an IQ test for recruits and places people by their scores. Even the NFL gives an IQ test called the Wonderlic test.



Okay...there's so much garbage in here, there's not much point in even trying to point out the misconceptions and outright false statements. Plus, the use of the word "retard" here is of dubious value at best.

Think I'll go plasticate my brain now; my BDNF needs polishing.

Val

Nowadays the military is testing for intelligence and this little thing they call perseverance - apparently these two factors tend to separate the successful from the less successful.

I also thought that the original iq-test guy, Terman, really was confounded by his test subjects - he followed them throughout their lives, many of them failed to live up to their 'numbers', and many scholars and scientists have puzzled over this ever since.

To answer the original question, no, no one can tell you what you should think.

HG+ kids are considered high risk in school for dropping out, depression, and drugs (to name a few). I find her argument valid in that most 'successful' people who really make a difference in this world are of above average intelligence but not in the HG+ range.

I'm not sure what you mean here. Are you saying that an HG child will be *working* 3-4 grade levels above grade by age or that they will *test* 3-4 grade levels ahead?

Hi Cocomom,
Would you mind sharing what makes you think this? I'd be interested to hear.

I realize that you aren't the one who came up with this estimation, but I'm really not comfortable with defining LOG like this. It is clear that a child who is working 5-6 yrs above grade level is probably quite bright, but I am not sure that all children who are 1-2 yrs above grade level are even MG. There are a lot of bright avg kids who could easily read or do math for a grade or two up. And my dd11, who is not EG or PG as far as I can tell, has easily read over 6 grades above her grade level consistently from 2nd-6th grade (when they stopped testing reading level) even with a grade skip.

Actually, I'd really hate to see a parent look at this guide and think that a kid who is reading 4 or 5 grades above level is HG+. Dd has friends who barely squeaked by into TAG programming with repeated tests of the CogAT, OLSAT, and WISC and finally got in with a lot of test prep and low to mid 90s on the verbal part of one of the group tests (but not even close on the WISC). These kids do test above grade level by 3-4 grades on reading.

Is Ruf referring to a composite score on an individual achievement test like the WIAT or WJ rather than being that far ahead in one subject? That would make more sense and probably be more accurate. My dd11, for instance, was about 3-4 grades above level on the composite score on the WJ in 2nd grade, which would line up with HG, where I believe she falls. Her scores ranged from barely at grade level on her weaker areas to a grade equivalency of 18+. I do believe that the spread would be less now a days as she has evened out somewhat and is above grade level in all subjects as well as being older so having an 18+ is less impressive in her strengths.

All of those kids would be in our GT program in the more liberal GT district locally. Any kid who is testing advanced on the NCLB tests and a few years above level on lexile is prepped with critical thinking pull out classes and practice tests and tested over and over on tests like the CogAT until they hit close to the mid 90s on the verbal part and are then deemed gifted and guaranteed placement in GT literacy classes through high school based upon that id.

I do believe that this is part of the reason dd11 wants to move back into the district to our north for high school. While the north district has its own set of problems with overidentifying high achievers and underindentifying gifted underachievers, they don't call more than, say, 20% of their kids gifted (still quite likely an overestimation) as opposed to 40%+ of kids in some of the schools in the south district. She feels that the level of instruction is higher in the north district as a result. When you have so many kids who are clearly not gifted in the GT classes, it does tend to modify what you can do & teach in those classes.

Sorry for taking your thread OT! Back to the regularly scheduled discussion ...

I don't mean to sound like a GT elitist, but it drives me NUTS when GATE programs let in more than 8-10% of the student body. By doing so, they dilute the programs for the HG/PG kids who truly NEED the program, and it does nothing for them.

We all know that there's a huge difference between a child in the 97th% and one in the 99.9th. The former can still generally get what they need in a regular classroom; the latter can't. I've completely given up on it anyhow, though. From everything I've heard, it's not nearly enough. Plus, of course, it doesn't start until 3rd grade. (We can get into YS but not into GATE?!?) That, and our public budgets are so depleted that there's nothing left to the program. In our old elementary school of 740 children, there was only $3500 left for GATE. (Plenty for the lower spectrum special needs, of course.) Grrr...

I'm sorry....I'm having a cranky morning and know I'm coming across crabby!!

Dottie, please don't get me wrong. I'd like to see every child get what they need, and everyone other than the very middle could use some kind of differentiation plan. I just can't help but jump on the bandwagon now for the special needs of our DSs because the schools are not providing them the education they need. While we are SO fortunate with our family situation and with where we live, so many parents have no help for their HG/PG. If I went back to work, or if we were back in Ohio where HS is not nearly as supported, I have no idea what we'd do. There are no HG schools in our area, and none for less than $20k a year where we used to live. If schools can integrate the special needs of the very bottom of the spectrum (and I do support those children's needs too), it begs the question as why there isn't something to help the very top, as well. *sigh* I know I'm preaching to the choir here!!

Lest Ohio get a bad name, some parts of Ohio are *really* good for homeschooling. Our area offers a (private) school for homeschoolers that is set up much like a college situation--kids choose a wide variety of classes as they like and pay only for what they use, as little as 30 minutes per week or as much as 4 days a week with before- and after-care. The school has lots of playtime and small classes, and though it is not specifically a gifted school, many of the teachers have experience and training in working with gifted kids. It's an amazing resource. Other schools (some private, some public) offer part-time homeschooling, too.

We start our fourth year of homeschooling this year, and I am regularly amazed at how many secular homeschoolers are here, and how many programs and classes and co-ops and homeschooling groups that work for them are offered in our area.

I realize this isn't the point of this thread, but I had to stick up for Ohio. It's been great for us!

There are so many great points, here. Even our *gripe* posts really get me thinking about different things. It's a wonderful dialogue!

Kriston, I'll PM you separately, if that's okay. We moved when DS was 4 so we didn't look much into HSing, but I have many friends who are considering it and don't know where to look.

Absolutely! Happy to help if I can.

Wow, Kriston, where are you? That school sounds amazing.

DeeDee

It is a really great arrangement for my kids, certainly.

For safety's sake, I don't usually share more about my location than I have already shared. I hope you understand.

I'd be happy to tell you more about the school though, if you want details. PM me, or we can start a new thread if others want more info.

I don't know....while I absolutely agree that performance should determine next instructional topics/skills regardless of IQ indicators, I think that that should be cross spectrum and considered outside of GT programming. I would argue that the kids who need GT programming are the kids who--regardless of current acheivement levels--are highly unusual in their ability to synthesize/analyze/create/invent. Acheivement based measures speak to the next appropriate content. Alternate instructional approaches may not be necessary as long as the content provided is appropriate (e.g. fifth grade math standards have been mastered, sixth grade math standards are appropriate). In contrast, I think that gifted students--regardless of acheivement outcomes--often need (but don't get) a markedly different approach/instructional arrangement. I would agree that gifted students with high achievement outcomes should be served separately from gifted students who are underachieving for the sake of both groups, but a student who is at the 99.8 percentile at age 8 and only ready for fifth grade math probably isn't recieving, and probably has not been recieving, what he/she needs. Performance can be depressed by what is/isn't offered; the learning climate; the instructional approach. High achievers who are ready for fifth grade math will probably move at a predictable pace. Gifted students who are in fifth grade math AND are given instruction in a format that taps/reinforces the qualities that put them at 99.8th percentile are more likely to leapfrog through that content in less predictable ways.

It seems likely to me that the reason that so many kids are being called "gifted" by the schools is that within the typical range, kids from advantaged backgrounds are being contrasted with kids from less advantaged backgrounds (I use the term advantaged loosely--not necessarily in economic terms, but in terms of resources/supports that provide some children with a head start). If the curriculum and standards are designed to hit some "middle", then of course there will be a large portion of children who are acheiving well above those standards. That doesn't make those children gifted, it makes them high achieving. Deserving of appropriate content based on what they already know? Yes. Gifted? The performance level isn't enough to say one way or the other.

Although I know that it isn't a popular viewpoint, I continue to see gifted children in the same way in which I see children with disabilities. These are children who cannot be adequately served without specialized instruction and supplementary aids and services. That specialized instruction and those supplementary aids and services aren't going to match the specialized instruction, aids and services of a child with a disability (although for 2E there will be some overlaps), but it is also going to be qualitatively different than it is for high achievers who are not gifted. Our failure to identify and serve gifted students differently than we identify and serve high achievers in the typical cognitive range is probably why we see the problem of underacheivement within the gifted population, as well as the underidentification of gifted students in populations that are in some way disadvantaged.

Climbing off my soapbox now I've enjoyed reading this discussion--lots of interesting perspectives here!

I have a kiddo who does not test gifted but otherwise has the signs and symptoms... We moved schools and she got skipped up 2 years in math. For a while she knew none of the material because she had not been taught.... It was great to see her work and enjoy it and she loved the teacher...but we also knew that the pace would sooner or later disolve into something that did not work for her...She came into the class mid year and ended up the top in the class and flying through the material.... We were lucky with her placement at the school as they let the kids work at their own level but could not adjust for pace.... I am not sure why she does not get the scores she needs and I agree that instruction needs to be tempered according to some criteria I just do not agree that an IQ test should be the sole criteria. I know that there needs to be cut-offs and ways to deal with the funding etc. My kiddo is not PG by anymeans but she sure needed something more akin to a gifted student than a high achiever student.

She doesn't sound like she's just a high acheiver though....I would doubt that a non-gifted high achiever, placed two years above, could start behind the other students and in less than a year outpace all of them.

I don't believe that a single (type of) test score should rule out anything, btw. Too many variables. And it sounds like between the pitfalls of group administered tests and the problem of individual testers who lack experience with gifted kids, there are lots of ways for giftedness to get missed.

You make me reconsider my earlier thoughts though. I was thinking about performance from an achievement test perspective, but I also subscribe to an RTI kind of approach. Given material that is appropriate to begin with (at actual level vs. at grade level), a child can demonstrate a need for gifted services based on an unusually deep or rapid acquisition of the material (as you've described). A child who is a high achiever but not gifted might demonstrate that kind of acquisition with grade level material, but probably wouldn't if placed in a situation where the content was all new. Of course, given the range of giftedness, there is going to be a significant range in rate and depth even with the gifted population. Certainly not all gifted children need the same thing. I just think that there is a difference between what gifted children of all levels need when compared to children within the range of typical cognitive abilities.

Taminy
Some great insights
Thanks

Thanks for all the input. It was very helpful. I'm very new at this because he's my firstborn. I did refer to the Ruf's list and that was very helpful. As someone mentioned the overlaps are kinda fuzzy..so I can see he's more of a level 3 and level 4 mix.
However, the IQ correlations are so different from the numbers of my family from over 20 years ago. Again, I got very useful info from many parents commenting that numbers are now very different from the past assessments so thanks very much for all the insight!

I'm still not sure what to do. I guess I will wait to hear from the teacher and take it from there. My friend who was a former school teacher and also insists my son is gifted says I really need to be aggressive about advocating for my son.

Any tips on what to say or how to speak to the principal or director of the G&t program?

Cocomom,
Since your son was group tested, perhaps you could print off some information about gifted kids and group testing (an example: http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/tests_tell_us.htm ). You might then either write a letter or request a meeting and present this as something that was shared with you. Then raise the question as to whether this might be a factor for your--now twice--teacher referred child. Perhaps request that the administrator/gate keeper gather a bit more information from the referring teachers regarding your child's demonstrated need for something beyond the typical curriculum. You might even take the approach like: "I understand that this program has set criteria. I guess I'm wondering what the instructional plan will be in place of his admittance to the program. I'm concerned that both of his teachers felt that there was a need not being fully met by the general classroom/curriculum. If the program isn't an option, I'm wondering what the plan will be for meeting his needs in the coming year. I want my son to continue enjoying/benefitting from school, and I have a lot of respect for his previous teachers' and their observations". Or something like that Given that both referrals originated with the teachers rather than with you the parent, you probably have a leg up on those of us who have to come in and challenge the perceptions' of our childrens' teachers. You might also take the approach of asking for the administrator's experience. "I'm obviously pretty new to this. Have you had kids in the past who didn't test well but then participated in the program and performed well? If so, would you be willing to let my son give it a try?".

A final question for you to consider: is this a good program? Will it give your child something that he will really benefit from? How much you advocate could have a lot to do with the answer to that question. If this is about an hour of enrichment a week, then waiting another year and accumulating more evidence of the mismatch between curriculum and need is probably not a problem. If this is a matter of subject acceleration, however, it will be more important to advocate because so many tests are impacted by what a child gets exposed to instructionally. If a year from now he is going to have his scores evaluated in comparison to same age peers who have recieved above-level instruction for a solid year, then this testing outcome is more likely to repeat itself. It concerns me that so few tests seem to have a way to incorporate exposure to material in their scoring. It seems to me that even where tests are not achievement based, outcomes are still likely to impacted by the variety of experiences a child has. After all, content is not just content: it is also opportunity to think about and analyze information. I would tend to think that the greater a child's range of experiences, the more developed those abilities should become. My DS, for instance, was given a math test in K that was supposed to be "ability" not "acheivement" based. He did poorly on it and his K teacher was distressed when she talked to me about it because she felt that she hadn't exposed him to some of the material he would have needed in order to understand what was being asked. He was slated for a great 1st grade teacher, and there is no real "program" here, so I just let it stand. This year, his second grade teacher requested evaluation based on classroom performance, and lo and behold, he tested at the 99th on the regular scale and the at the 97th on the gifted scale on the same test. It's my belief that maturity played some role, but I also strongly suspect that by the time he retook this test, he had a broader,stronger store of knowledge to draw from and apply to the novel tasks and problems he was given.

AGAIN, THANKS SO MUCH for all the great comments and advice.

@Taminy-- I will definitely use the article on group testing and your advice on how to approach the teachers/directors. I made the decision to appeal the decision.

Also, in reading other posts and such I don't think my son is a high achiever because he really doesn't care to do what he's supposed to. It's more about acquiring "new" material for him.
I'm worried that will be a problem for him in the later years. Doing what is required is fine and he'll do it well but then he doesn't want to do what's extra--or practice anything. His bright friend/classmate is always bringing home extra homework to do. When I ask my son he says, "we don't have to do it..only if we want to." To him those homework sheets are considered "practice" which he hates to do. When I ask him to "practice" or show me what he learned..he says, "but I already know it-- why do I have to practice?" Is that normal or is he just lazy?

I know the example that Taminy gave for her DS and less exposure to some material was a factor for my son in taking the test. I think that's why he was able to pass the OLSAT the 2nd time around without any prep or practice ( I still have no idea what kind of questions are on that exam). I'm hoping the same will happen if they allow him to retest on the COGAT. Best case they'll totally agree with my appeal and just allow him into the program!! HAHA-- wishful thinking!!! Wish me luck!!

Sounds like my DD, so "normal for our house," if that helps. Although my DD is currently in a "I can't get my own drink of water without whining" phase, so I wouldn't rule out lazy in her case.


My notes from DD's 1st grade OLSAT say: Parts 1 and 2 got done on Monday, and were apparently "which one doesn't belong" and analogies ("There was a picture of a flower and a flower petal, then a picture of a tree, and we had to pick what went with the tree"). Part 3 was today, and involved the teacher reading a problem, which they had to solve in their heads ("KidName had two friends, and 9 stickers. Everyone got the same number of stickers. How many stickers did each person get?").

We got verbal, non-verbal, and composite scores, plus the standard error of measurement, which was 5.3. I don't know that the SEM varies much between test versions.

FWIW, our school district uses composite + SEM in determining whether kids make the cutoff.

I ask myself this question (about me!) every.day!

Hi Again to all you very helpful and supportive people who helped me back in May....My DS is in 2nd grade now. He was nominated by his 1st grade teacher for testing into the G&T program. He passed the required 132 on the OLSAT but scored under the required(132) on the COGAT-- he scored 124 last spring. He retested just last week and his results came in at 128. So, he improved his score but still didn't meet the required 132 to get an "EALP"(exceptionally able learning program). However, his consolation prize is the "math club" which basically is a pullout math program offered to a few kids who are way above grade level.

Now, do I take out the big guns? A neighborhood friend is a G&T teacher in a neighboring more progressive district. They do test but not Olsat nor Cogat and they don't rest everything on the results of these tests. She heard my cries for help. I really only wanted her opinion of how I should approach the school. It turns out that she has helped prep 3 other kids from our neighborhood to pass our districts requirements for tests by working with them and "prepping them". She volunteered to do the same with my son but I declined because I felt bad taking time away from her kids (they are 2 and 3yrs).

She did however sit with him to evaluate him. She gave him the interview sheet that she uses to screen kids in her district. She said they are 10 G&T problems and it usually takes 15mins to complete but he completed them with her in 2 mins. Okay, so I'm not crazy and he should be working on stuff like this. She said he doesn't even write stuff down..just looks up and figures it all out in his head. She was surprised. So, she ended up working with him on 3rd grade G&T level questions and he still was able to solve them.

Anyway, what do I do now? Keep asking to restest? Do I stop and take a break?? I would really like to figure out what stumps him on the tests..Is it the same type of question? My friends are all telling me to demand a sit-down..does it work that way?

I'm mostly venting today because I just got the news. Thanks. Would appreciate any feedback.

Would they accept a test from a private testing provider (i.e. school psychologist) in your area? Our school system requires minimum standards on testing but you can have the testing done on your own; I think sometimes that some of the school psychologists who work for the system have a vested interest in not necessarily finding gifted kids (i.e. they then have to provide services, which are expensive). A private provider might be able to provide insight into why he doesn't test higher (certainly sounds as though he should). I also don't know if there might be other tests which would give you a better perspective on his strengths and weaknesses (e.g. KeyMath3).

Good luck. Sounds frustrating!

Hi Susandj,
Thanks for your input. I actually got a neighborhood friend who tested him with the evaluation that her district uses to screen gifted candidates. She runs the G&T program in a neighboring district. She said from it she can see he is very "pensive" and a perfectionist. Also, she was able to assess what type of learner he is. When she heard he missed the school's required test (COGAT) by 4 points she insisted she wants to write a letter to my school district's G&T head to tell them of her assessment and make recommendation to allow him to work under a trial period because he needs it and can definitely perform. I'm just worried if that would be a turn off to them or if I should go for it.

The evaluation involved 10 G&T questions which usually takes 15 mins but he completed it in 2 mins. He's in 2nd grade now but he kept answering the questions correctly so she moved him up to 3rd grade level G&T questions. She said he doesn't write anything down and just looks off and figures out calculations, etc. She was surprised.

Now I feel much better that someone else has documented how he performs and I hope my school will be open to her recommendations. Has anyone else had a similar situation?

Thanks so much!