Hi all,

I could use some guidance here. We got my son's WISC IV scores today and they were really strong (as a caveat - I am travelling and my DH read me the scores and report - so hopefully I have everything straight). There are 13 subtests (is that usual?):

Similarities: 17
Vocab: 18
Comprehension: 13
Information: 17
Block Design: 16
Picture Concepts: 17
Matrix Reason.: 15
Picture Completion: 9
Digit Span: 11
Letter # Sequence: 15
Arithmetic: 19
Coding: 13
Symbol: 13

FSIQ: 136
GAI: 144

So that is all good - although obviously I am concerned about the picture completion with the 9 and the digit span. Do these suggest anything?

But the bigger concern and the thing that has me really upset is that in the report they spent the entire last 2 paragraphs talking about the social skill low score (I take that is the 13 in comprehension - am I correct? - which while low compared to the other stuff is still above average). They suggested that the low score could be due to my parenting (I think they call it over-functioning parenting) and claim that more testing is needed to exclude that as a cause. I think my son is a bit immature, but is there anything else that could cause that sort of a low number, is that a valid assumption? It is disturbing because I have to show this to the school and it seems like it just gives them ammunition to say my son is immature and try to deny a subject acceleration.

Could any of this suggest a mild autism spectrum issue. My son has a lot of friends in his class, and is quite social, but has very low frustration tolerance and as I said, is a bit immature in some ways, but not in others. In addition, when he was tested for OT, his OT found that he has a hard time reading facial expressions - would any of this concern you.

Anyway, what should have been a really nice day from his strong results has turned into making me feel very upset - I have always felt pretty confident about my parenting - and now what.

On a whole other topic - any suggestions on what other testing we might consider. The only other thing we have done is SCAT testing.

Thanks so much for listening. Cat

The reason the report has 13 subtest as opposed to 10, like many here post, is that he was given 3 optional subtests (Information, Picture Completion and Arithmetic). These optional subtests do not factor into the Full Scale score but they provide additional information. Many psychologists administer only the 10 required subtests in order to save time (after all, most neuropsychological testing also includes academic achievement tests as well).

It really bothers me that schools make such inane, unsubstantiated judgments about parenting from cognitive scores. "Comprehension" questions require open-ended verbal reasoning. Sample "Comprehension" questions are:
--Why should one keep away from bad company?
--Why are streets numbered in order?
--Why do we keep money in a bank?
--Why do we have laws?
--What does "a stitch in time saves nine" mean?
So your DS might just not make his reasoning completely explicit or provide passable but not perfect answers. Perhaps although his reasoning is perfectly lucid, he doesn't like to elaborate and is reserved. Wrong parenting is the last explanation that should be explored and don't let what the psychologist said make you feel guilty. Not all "professionals" are of equal quality; many are mediocre. If you can, I would ask the testing psychologist, what was wrong with his "Comprehension" responses: superficial and not reasoned out? reasoned out but not completely explicit? good response but spoiled at the end because goes on tangent? freezes and says he doesn't know and is afraid he won't be able to reason it out on the spot? etc. Knowing the specifics will give you a better idea of the areas to work on.

Given how strong he is across the board and that Letter-Number Sequencing is high, I don't think he has any neurological/LD issues that lowered Digit Span and Picture Completion. Digit Span was probably lower because it is a rote, not very intellectually demanding task and so he didn't put too much effort into it.

As for Picture Completion, fortunately it didn't factor into the full-scale. In this subtest, a child is shown a picture of a scene and asked "what's missing?". For example, a child may be shown a picture of a volleyball game where a net is missing and he has to identify that "what's missing is the net". Or he may be shown a clock which only has a long hand and no short hand and he has to say that "what's missing is the short hand". Poor environmental awareness, poor attention to detail and a degree of cognitive inflexibility may all cause a lower score. I took an adult version of this IQ test at age 20, and did absolutely atrociously on "Picture Completion", much lower than your DS--it was my lowest subtest. Unfortunately for me, it is a required subtest on WAIS III and factors into all composites.

This is something I've always vaguely wondered - are there versions of the WISCIV for different countries, or what? I know WISCIV is used in the UK, but our streets are *not* numbered in order (they have names, not numbers, because our towns and cities are in almost all cases emergent with irregular patterns of streets, not planned with a grid system), so this particular question would floor almost any UK child. Does the tester just omit the most obviously country-specific items, or is there a whole new set of questions, or what?

About the streets numbered in order, this was just an example. They try really hard to throw out any culturally biased items and this question probably wouldn't show up in WISC UK.

i join the others- am really shocked by the "over-functioning parent" thing. Where in the world did they GET that?? magazine psycho-babble at best (and i'm not talking a out Scientific American more like Good Housekeeping)..

Low comprehension can SOMETIMES indicate an autism spectrum disorder but it is not used as a diagnostic tool- the correlation is not that strong. My son got a really high score on it (18 or 19) and his school still thinks he has PDD. Also 13 is really a very good score.

the tester actually put it in the report? about the over-functioning parent thing??

Here's a magazine article that equates over functioning parent to overindulging. I'd be looking for a pretty good explanation from the tester about why that was included in the report.
http://www.overindulgence.info/Documents/Overindjulgent%20Parents,%20Under-Functioning%20Kids.pdf

I think the tester is on the warpath to diagnose something, and calling a 13 a weakness (possibly indicating a disability) is quite a stretch. My oldest is SN and you would be horrified if you could see what we have experienced, mainly test results which are widely different from each other (by different testers), each with its own conclusion which appears tailor made to the agency which did the eval. Depending on the agency or school district, within a period of 1 year, my ds had IQ scores varying by 40 points. It honestly sounds to me like they want some sort of diagnosis and maybe they hoped the comprehension score would be lower? Also that business about the OT saying he does not read facial expressions, that sounds highly subjective to me. In my experience OTs have been some of the worst at "creative diagnosis" if you know what I mean. GL to you. You have one very bright child there, and that is the only conclusion I would carry away from that test session and those high scores.

Can you talk to the tester and say that you have some questions about the report? Tell him that you were unsure about what exactly he meant by his comments. Listen to the explanation. Tell him your goals and what you plan to do with the report.

And then ask him in no uncertain terms to please REMOVE them from the official report and print you a new copy!

While he may be qualified to make editorial comments (no matter whether they are wrong or not) and they could be helpful in some way, you have a right, I believe, to ask for just the numbers he got on the tests along with a comment about whether the numbers were valid and perhaps a comment about what educational situation might be best for your child. Those things are data and clinical judgement but not editorializing.

Don't let this person make you doubt your parenting, your child, or your child's needs.

Un- @ing believeable!!!!

Seriously - I would want to have a phone consult with one of those 'top ten' testers to review 'what should we be doing with the information from scores like these?'

Look - all the kids here have special educational needs, and most of them have 'special needs' in the 'growing up' department too. Most of us who are 'with it' and care enough to post here could be accused as 'over-functioning parents' - if you believe the 'big lie' that all children develop along the average path, and that schools 'always' know what's best for kids, then we are all pathological by definition. Ohhh, it makes my blood boil!

Hasn't our society gone past the 'blame Mommy' business? I guess it pays the bills, but I don't like it one bit. I've only been able to handle this kind of 'flack' by saying 'in the privacy of my mind'

You think I'm over-functioning? Why don't we send this child to your house for the weekend, and see how YOU do.

As you might guess I get told that I'm over-involved, over-compensating, and over-indulging by various professionals and family members from time to time. Excuse me - if I'm the one who is 'getting my own needs met through parenting this child,' why as I the one who had to get the ball rolling for overnight camp, a private school that could provide more of a 'village' and now, boarding school?

Deep breaths.

I love the idea of getting home, reading the test, asking the tester to explain what they are talking about, and INSISTING that they prepare a version for the school that leaves out the last 2 paragraphs.

How does your child do in playdates with older kids? To me that speaks volumes, not just paragraphs.

Love and More Love,
GriMity

Exactly. How can the tester based it on one single score which 1 SD higher than the mean? Yes, it's lower than the rest of the scores but it's the very last subtest. Your child might have been done with the test by then.

I know you are all adults here and easily understand what the correct answer to the question about "why are streets numbered in order?" is but a good answer would be something like:

Streets are numbered in order so that one could tell how far they are from each other just from their names which one can't do if they are numbered randomly. In sum, they are numbered in order for people's convenience.

Why should one keep away from bad company?
One should keep away from bad company because he might get undeservingly accused of wrongdoing if the bad company does something bad just because he is associated with them, although he is completely innocent and uninvolved in their immoral or illicit activities.

Why do we keep money in a bank?
We keep money in a bank because there they accrue interest while keeping them at home doesn't increase their amount. Also, money may get lost at home while it is very unlikely to get lost in a bank.

Why do we have laws?
We have laws so as to prevent people from doing harm to themselves or others. Since laws demand behavior that's beneficial to society and mandate consequences for violations, people have a strong dissentive to violate them and thus laws serve to prevent people from causing harm to others.

My dd6 also had a 13 in the Comprehension subset (her FSIQ was 140 with extended norms)... the psychologist did not take note of it at all!

Yeah, what Grinity said!! I think this struck such a nerve because the remark implies dysfunctional parenting when, with gifties, it's more often a case of high functioning parents. Not that we're necessarily such great parents by nature but the demands of dealing with these children requires us to step up to the challenge.

I wonder if the "diagnosis" was made based upon a separate screening test? It seems very odd to make that claim based upon these scores.

Also, PLEASE don't share test questions here!

Ultimately YOU know your child best. Don't accept a diagnosis that doesn't fit what you see everyday.

Hi Everyone,

Thank you so much for all of your responses - they have really helped me feel better (getting home from my travels and seeing my kids helped too ). I did a ton of searching on the internet last night and was unable to find anything that related the comprehension score to "over-functioning parenting" (or really much at all about "over-functioning parenting).

We will definitely do as advised and speak to the tester to try to clarify the responses. My DS seems fine with older kids - he is pretty much fine with kids of all ages and his teacher has said he is a class leader, so I am not really concerned with the social issues (just panicked by the numbers I think - but when I think about it there really shouldn't be a concern).

Dottie, we will be doing full achievement testing once we meet with the school to see what (if any) sorts of tests they are willing to look at and consider for subject acc. etc.

As for DYS, it would def. be nice to have the help of a consultant, etc. but I can't imagine asking them to recalculate it - heh. And you know, honestly, I think the help I find on this board is so useful, it doesn't make much difference, it just makes me so grateful for everyone's assistance, and makes me think hats off to those of you parenting those really incredibly wild high scoring kids, because I have my hands full with this kiddo, and I can't imagine it being more intense (wow, that was some run-on sentence)!

Cat

Both my DH and I are pretty bad in this area as well - I once had a secretary who got really upset with me because she had completely redone her hair (cut, color, etc.) and she said, "so what do you think?" and I couldn't figure out what she had done differently

Thanks so much for posting this. While we certainly fit maybe 10% of what is discussed (my DS is in 2nd grade and I do make sure he has done his homework and put it back in his backpack), none of the rest would apply, so it def helped put my mind at ease.

((beaming))
I'm so glad you've found this board useful. I love all the care that we share here. I love that it's public. I love that we 'self-select' and don't have any credentials to be here. I love that this board exists.

Griniity

LOL! I'm with you there! If you get a chance to hear Josh Shane talk about 'Non-linear Thinkers' go listen. Lots of us Gifties experience the world as 'Forest' and miss some of the 'Trees.' It's part of what confuses us about our own intelligence: 'if we are so smart, then why did we walk around all day with our fly unzipped?'

I wish I had a nickel for every time we arrive at the vacation destination to see that my DH has a black shoe paired with a brown shoe.

((wink))
Grinity

Oh yes! My husband has learned to compensate by double and triple checking when he packs. My DS has both the lack of attention to detail and some poor sensory processing (can't tell which finger is being touched, etc), so his shirt is always half tucked in, underwear hanging out or shirt tucked into underwear etc. I have to fix his clothes (oh no, now I am guilty of over-functioning parent syndrome ). I wore plaids and polka dots together well into my early teens - I just didn't notice they didn't go together until my older sister pointed it out (I was probably embarrassing her).

Exactly!

Way back when, I tried to avoid dressing DS in ways that require shirt tucked in, except for special occasions.

Ahhhhhhhhhh! Finally some sign that I am not just a space puppy...or we are all space puppies. My little sister and I always joke that if we worked at the local 7-11 and got robbed we would tell the police...Ummmm it was a guy, I guess, with ummmmmmm hair? Maybe? But we would remember exactly how we felt and an overall "vibe" or impression on the robbers state of being.

That would be so me. I would have no idea. I can spend a few hours with a person and not remember how she looked like. I am a visual learner so I don't really understand how that's possible.

I think we may perceive more then we give ourselves credit for. I honestly think that somehow, our brain is able to perceive that which is of import vs. that which is not, so while we may not remember sill y details, we do remember that which is important (maybe why our kids don't remember rote while they do remember conceptual?).

Cat