Greetings from Texas! Pud (7 1/2, skipped 2nd, in 3rd grade) had the WISC and WIAT a little over a year ago. The results are here: Pud's results.

His scores are confusing and the psychologist who did the testing wasn't able to explain much. His "comprehension" was a '9' (sorry to be repeating for all those who are familiar with this story). We were told that his "social judgement" was lacking. His WIAT scores are much higher than his WISC scores would indicate. About 3 months ago, he saw a different psychologist for behavioral issues. She said he tends to be obsessive/compulsive but not to the extent that it is a disorder and that he is behind his age level emotionally and socially. She didn't really have any recommendations for us. In March, at the suggestion of our regular doctor and some on this board, we had him assessed for Central Auditory Processing. All of his scores were at or above normal but his "pragmatic language skills" were just barely in the normal range and more than 2 standard deviations below the other scores. The speech pathologist suggested we have him assessed to rule out Asperger's Disorder (syndrome?). I've talked to 2 people in gifted education who both, after only briefly meeting my son, expressed the opinion that their first thought was Asperger's. There is no one in my area that is well-versed in both gifted children and Asperger's. There is only 1 person who deals a lot with gifted kids and she says she doesn't know much about Asperger's, other than that gifted can mask Asperger's and vice versa.

I met James Webb at a symposium recently and spoke briefly to him about all this. He recommended a full assessment by either Paul Beljan, Nadia Webb (his niece), or Ed Amend. I spoke to Dr. Amend yesterday and liked what I heard. He suggested a telephone consultation after reviewing all of our current testing and reports and information. And then decide about an assessment. The testing runs 7 - 12 hours over a 3 day period and is $160/hour. We'd have to travel to Kentucky for Dr. Amend or Phoenix or New Orleans for the others.

Part of me says we need to have him assessed by an expert. Part of me says it's not necessary, just treat him as if he has Asperger's and see if things change. I am curious how he would score on the WISC if it were given by someone knowledgeable about giftedness. My husband sees no reason to have him tested. (ahem, assessed)

We are in the process of moving to a school district with a better gifted program, after 2 disastrous (well, maybe that's stretching it a little, but not much) years of school, one in a public school and one in a private school.

It almost seems like I a chasing a diagnosis. I'm not - if there's nothing to diagnose then there's nothing to diagnose. However, if another assessment could help me understand this strange, quirky little person I have to raise, then maybe that would be beneficial. If another assessment would help me to understand him better and understand what behavior is due to giftedness, what to something else, what to personality, and what to bad parenting, that would be worth something.

So, what things would you think about when considering a second assessment? The school will do their own testing for entrance into their gifted program (I think it is the NNAT and the ITBS) but I don't think it will give me much information. Dr. Amend asked me if there was any urgency and I had to laugh and answer "yes and no". Would you do it to rule out Asperger's and other things? Would you do it to help understand your kids? It's a lot of money, especially with the travel, but we might could turn it into a family vacation (I've never been to Kentucky!).

Thanks again for all your support and thoughts.

ETA: sorry that got so long

Personally, I wouldn't do it if my gut feeling was that it was about ruling out autistic spectrum disorders, but I would if I thought I might be ruling one in, because I've seen a child with an ASD really benefit from a special communication class and other services to which he wouldn't have had access without such a diagnosis. OTOH, if in your area there's nothing like that (do you know?) then it might be just as good to read up on ASDs and, as you say, take that into account without worrying about a label.

I also think labels (including GT of course) are best thought of as approximate conveniences rather than as Platonic reality. That is, there may be no real "fact of the matter" about whether he has such-and-such syndrome, let alone about which of his behaviours are caused by what. He just is how he is, and your job is to find out how to bring him up best :-)

Anytime my gut feeling has nagged me as long as yours has nagged you I usually decide to investigate. I've never been sorry.

Good luck with this decision.

Neato

It's a good idea to investigate further, especially if you feel that he is struggling (or not thriving) in the current classroom environment that he is in.

Colorado and Maryland have a gifted twice exceptional handbook on how their school district will proceed in instructing 2E students. I think other larger school districts are developing their own proceedures and curriculum for twice exceptional.

My 2E (ADHD) son experienced disasters in his elementary years until we moved to a district that had a brilliant gifted coordinator who was able to inspire teachers to keep inspiring my son. Another parent I know has a 2E son (Aspie) in Florida and his IEP allowed him to have 1/2 of his courses with the regular language arts for 5th graders (with a learning assistant) and 1/2 modified insturction in Calculus and HS Biology.

I would advise you to know what direction you are wanting to take and what type of medical tests will allow you to get the IEP you feel your son is needing (and not recieving). This may save you some unnecessary expense.

We have a medical diagnosis of gifted aspergers for my DD9 from a pediatric psychologist from Children's Hospital. It has no effect whatsoever on the school district. They do not recognize it or any outside testing that my DD had.

We have fought long and hard to get appropriate testing for pragmatics into the school. (With traditional testing aspie's can pass and actually have a problem, with newer tests specific to actions vs. answers, they don't.) The new tests qualify my DD for an IEP with a speech and language delay in pragmatics and she now receives services. A medical diagnosis, no matter who from, will not in and of itself determine services, and isn't required, in most instances, for services to be granted.

Hope that helps.

Just FYI, although I saw the 2E stuff for Colorado on line at some point a while back, at my ds6's IEP meeting last month the psych told me that the state (we're in CO) was changing its criteria for special needs services, and would not be offering any services (with the exception of speech) unless a student was performing below grade level. I don't know when this supposed change is taking place, but I got the feeling it was very soon.

Regardless, although our district has had a full time gifted program, it does not seem to be appropriate for 2E kids, from the way I have read the handbook for the gifted program. It may all be moot because the district is about to execute some massive budget cuts.

I had a girl friend that was approached by our GT cordinator about having her son evaluated for Aspergers.

You may want to check that out, if your son attends public school they may be required to pay to have the evaluation done.

This is the first day I have ever been on this site so I haven't read your whole story. I have a few questions for you.

How is your child athleticly?
Is he clumbsy, bumps into things?
Does he understand when someone is joking or does he think they are being mean?
Did he teach himself how to read?
How is he socially, does he make friends?

I have 2 friend who have children with aspergers. I may think of some of the other things she told me later.

aaaaahhhhhhgggggg

Just a year ago 2E seemed to be sparking an interest and I hoped these two districts would be leading change for gifted curriculum. I really like the objectives and teaching methods suggested.

I think you are the third person I spoke to where speech services were going to be utilized for below grade level performance. I really dislike the way it feels like gifted children will do ok and fend for themselves in the regular classroom.

Back on topic... sorry...

Let me clarify - they will offer all the usual services if the student has below grade level performance. Speech is the only service they will offer if the student is performing at or above grade level (my ds's new IEP has only speech and he's now performing above grade level; we're fortunate that he no longer needs the other services, like the OT he used to get for fine motor).

At any rate, from what I could see, the stuff in that 2E on-line booklet wasn't really being implemented in our school district (which is supposedly among the handful of better districts in the state).

(sorry for going off-topic again)

Has the current school done any kind of speech and language eval? Again, yes with the standard CASTL testing, or equivalent, and also with something like the CSLI? The first being the answer these questions test that many gifties will still pass and the second being the skills inventory that the parents and teachers rate based on his actual actions. If Pud has aspergers this is where you will start to see the most common delay. It will become more noticable from year to year without intervention, and to a certain degree maybe even with intervention. My DD passed all the standard tests last year and still just makes the cut this year, but failed the CSLI by a good margin.

I would look into something like this before I went through an expensive redo of the WISC and WIAT. Just my two cents...

Hi Squirt,
It does sound like you are wanting more answers and help for him, which is clearly understandable. My thought is that it may be helpful to have him evaluated for Aspergers. I know that you say that there are not any that are experienced with gifted children separate from gifted AS kids, but even those experienced with AS should be able to tell if he meets the criteria for diagnosis or not. Also, most with AS are gifted or advanced...but it obviously doesn't always go the other way. Forgive me if I am repeating myself because I may have mentioned this to you before, but I would just see who your pediatrician recommends for assessing possible spectrum disorders. I am sure they have someone that they go through as this is not an uncommon disorder by any means.

My thoughts on going through the expert is that is a lot of time, money, etc. It could be helpful, but possibly not necessary if you already think you know what it is. If you get an evaluator who has worked with AS kids, they should know the difference. Once you get it, you get it. And even before I knew about gifted children I would still see kids that were quite smart and quirky with clear social issues, but that I was not comfortable diagnosing with AS. But if they met the criteria they were still able to receive a diagnosis of PDD-NOS, and receive counseling services and support to work on those social skills that were needed. And in evaluating for AS, the testing scores may be somewhat helpful, but I can't see how reassessing thorough IQ or achievement tests would at all be helpful in an evaluation. It sounds completely unneccesary IMPHO (I added professional, you like that? LOL).

Thanks all for your feedback. I'll try to address all your thoughts but it may take a couple of posts.The current school doesn't offer any testing (it's a private school and doesn't have to). His school last year refused to do any testing because he was not below grade level in anything. He had the speech-language eval through an independent speech pathologist and she used the Clinical Evaluation of Language Fundamentals (CELF-4), Test of Auditory Processing Skills (TAPS-3), Test of Pragmatic Language (TOPL-2, where he showed the weakest score, 86, with 18 Percentile rank), and Listening Comprehension. My DH and I filled out the Listening Inventory which is the behavioral observation rating and the Children's Auditory Performance Scale (CHAPS). We rated him in the "at risk" range in every category (frustrated parents or true insight?). Are either of these like the CSLI?

I talked to a couple of local people who diagnose Aspergers (recommended by the speech pathologist). Both of them do the full WISC and WIAT anyway. If I'm going to have to pay someone to do those, I might as well do the travel and have Dr. Amend do it.


Someone asked these questions:
How is your child athleticly? about average, he's tall and leggy and somewhat awkward but seems to have been helped by karate
Is he clumbsy, bumps into things no ?
Does he understand when someone is joking or does he think they are being mean sometimes he understands joking; sometimes he thinks people are being mean but more often he thinks they're being "unfair" ?
Did he teach himself how to read I started teaching him to read at about 3 3/4 yo because he was in tears because he didn't know what the words meant. I bought a book "Teach Your Child to Read in 100 Easy Lessons" and he had the concept after about 20 lessons. We still went through the book but he really could have done it on his own. I guess that means no but I think he could have. ?
How is he socially, does he make friends he dosen't make friends and has trouble fitting in with agemates (like at soccer or baseball), he makes up these long complex games that others can't follow, he seems to mostly be on the "outside" ?

And, you're right, Neato, my gut has bothered me with this for a long time. I guess one option would be to wait until we move and see if the new school district will do any of this testing. I'm guessing they won't but I will check. The thing about seeing Dr. Amend that appeals to me is that it's like "one-stop shopping". Maybe he could clear up a whole bunch of things and we wouldn't have to go here and there and hither and yon for this testing and that testing.

I'm rambling now and don't think I'm getting anywhere. My DH did agree to call Dr. Amend and talk to him to get a better understanding of why an assessment might be a good idea. Maybe that's a start and then we send him all our information and do the telephone consult and then decide. I got a book yesterday at the library about Asperger's, so maybe that will help me understand it and what the treatment or modifications are. I'll mull it over some more. More comments and thoughts are welcome. And, thanks, again.

Please, please look up resources for gifted aspergers. I know that many kids with aspergers are above average IQ but there is definately a difference of symptoms with gifted aspergers. We spent two years saying no, she doesn't have aspergers until we read about the differences. Then the light bulb really went on and we had our DD tested. Same thing with family until they read up on the different presentations.

Sorry, I know I'm repeating myself again.

Do you have any resources for gifted aspergers? I haven't come across anything that deals with it except the book "Misdiagnosis and Dual Diagnosis". Thanks, and you're not repeating yourself. Even if you were, it's worth repeating.

I would suggest you spend a little time with a search engine and then calling places about getting an ASD assessment. I put in Texas Autism Programs in Google and got back The University of Texas Autism Program and a bunch of private resources.

There are several checklist type screening assessments for ASD that any good psychologist or neuropsych can give you that will help you discern whether additional ASD assessment might be helpful.

I guess it's not clear to me (I'm new though so perhaps you've made it clear in the past) what exactly you are wanting. Help to make an appropriate school placement? Qualification for special ed? Speech/language services paid for by the school? Support for your family as you struggle to cope with behavioral issues? What you want/need will help drive your process.

AS for the school district where you live refusing to assess your son, that is ... well the nice word would be manure. If there is a suspected disability (in this case speech/language) then IDEA requires that they assess him, even if he's in private school and even if he's getting OK grades. If you request an assessment in writing, listing your concerns, they must either offer a plan for assessment or give you a written response detailing their reasons for declining to assess. You then have the option to challenge their decision if they refuse.

That said, asking your pediatrician for an ASD assessment referral would also be appropriate. As others have said, it is not unusual for children on the spectrum to have normal to gifted IQ's.

I feel fairly certain that you can find a good assessment in Texas. Whether you will have to pay privately is hard to say. I f it were me, I'd start with the pediatrician and then consider the school.

Good luck,

Patricia

I have linked this before:
http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/eric/fact/asperger.pdf
and I still like it because of the comparison tables. It also has the diagnosis criteria listed for asperger's.

This is a good article:
http://www.davidsongifted.org/db/Articles_id_10167.aspx
It also has a good table, the set up for it is a little more clear than the above article. It goes through the individual criteria and distinctions between ordinary gifted and gifted children with asperger's. It goes into sensory issues, and lists a ton of good references that were used to compile it.

I will pull out my file and look for more.

The test of pragmatic language (TOPL-2)gives situations and asks the participant what their response would be. It is shown to be a good starting point in differentiating pragmatic language problems in children with ASD's. The PLSI is an inventory of pragmatic language skills that is scored on a scale system by parents, teachers, and those familiar with your child. It determines what skills the child actually demonstrates. My DD9 may know what she should do or what the response should be in the sense that she was taught those things but she does not apply them to herself, she doesn't demonstrate those skills.

What were you told about your sons score on the TOPL-2? I can't find the reference table.

I think you need to stop trying to prove to the world that he is gifted and needs to be in a gifted program.

IF as you believe he has Aspergers then you should focus on that first. I would suggest you accept that Aspergers and gifted are not related. Assume the Aspergers is like bad eyesight... you wouldn't run around trying to find a gifted test that he could pass with poor eyesight you would start by getting him glasses. Get him help with the Aspergers and then worry about the rest.

What you've been saying and describing would make me think he has Aspergers... maybe not as severe as some but enough that it is causing some problems.

As for traveling and paying 160/hour for a 8 hour test... well frankly I think they are just trying to make a bit more profit from you than they should. Any decent child psychologist should be able to recognize Aspergers and it shouldn't take 8 hours and 2 days of testing to do it.

Well, I know for a fact that Dr. Amend is so busy that he could easily turn away clients and suffer no ill effects to his business, so I feel very confident in saying that his interaction with Squirt is not some money-making scheme on his part.

Dr. Amend is VERY well-respected--a leader in the field of GT testing and counseling. He is just about the furthest thing from a snake-oil salesman that you're going to find!

I agree that it's possible that Dr. Amend could be more expert than is called for in this case, especially given the distance involved. (I don't have any idea if he *is* more than what's needed or not, but I can see that it might be possible.) But please, DrH, don't make sweeping negative judgements about a specific professional without having some idea who he is and what he does. I hate to see a good person's reputation smeared unfairly...

Melmichigan,

I sent you a pm about his scores.

Kriston, well put.

Touche' Kriston!!

I've been told the same thing about Dr Silverman. $1500. is alot of money but it's all about perspective. Just how important is your child? Would you pay 1500 for surgery? In my mind this is diagnostics, same as you would have done for a physical problem. As far as having it done cheaper somewhere else? Maybe it is a little on the "overkill" side but isn't it better to get it done once and get it done right?

Just BTW, I don't think money has to equate to a good testing experience or a cheaper tester to a bad one. We actually had a better testing experience with a less experienced psychologist than Dr. Amend. But I also don't think that greater expense necessarily equals snake-oil salesman.

It's a pretty variable industry cost-wise, at least from what I've seen.

Stating that someone appears to be pushing for more testing than would likely be necessary isn't smearing anyone unfairly. Frankly I do not know Dr. Amend. So the question is what do you know about him that you hold him in such high regard? Unless you have a professional working relationship with him or any other doctor you really don't have a clue as to how good or bad a doctor is.

I'm quite sure that investors putting money in Mr. Madoff's investment fund thought he was an excellent fund manager... yet we know where that ended. If someone is charging $1,000 to change the oil in your car it doesn't mean they aren't doing a good job of changing the oil. They might do a fine job, but it doesn't mean that they aren't trying to make money and it doesn't mean that they aren't trying to charge as much as they can.

The only thing about Dr. Amend that would give me pause to use him would be his website. I would wonder why he has two offices in two different cities. I would wonder if he was actually doing all the testing and work or if he was having other do work for him. But if you believe he is a good doctor you have the right to that opinion. I don't know his work, so I can only say that it sounds like a rather excessive amount of testing and expense.

The goal is always to get it done right... but you appear to be assuming that the price has any relationship to the quality of the service. Does a Rolex keep better time than a Seiko watch? No, in fact a Seiko would be capable of more accurate time... Smart money would look at the average rate for a procedure, and then look at other factors to decide which doctor to use. Just going out and saying I want the most expensive doctor isn't going to insure you get quality care.

Most people would pay price when it comes to their children, that fact is also known and used by some people to charge excessive fees.

So no one who is not also in the business can know if a person has a lot of business? I know that he has a long waitlist for appointments because I know other parents of GT kids who are trying to get their kids in to see him. He is not out scraping up work.

I know he is well-regarded because my son was tested by him and I live in the area he serves. He's a national expert. Seriously. His books are highly regarded by parents, educators and other psychologists. He is a proponent of serving the needs of GT kids. If you are the parent of a GT child, you tend to learn these things.

Again, I am not saying that the child in question requires that much testing. I have no idea if it's necessary or worth the money. It's a lot of money.

I *am* saying that you don't know that the child *doesn't* need it, and I'm saying that there are better ways to ask if that much testing is necessary than to smear Dr. Amend's reputation without even knowing him as you did.

P.S. He is doing the testing himself for that price. He does have assistants, but he charges less if you see one of them. I know because we saw him.

I didn't say you had to know him professionally to know whether he has a lot of business. I said you would have to know him and work with him professionally to know if he was a good doctor. You used him and were happy with the results. So you assume he is a good doctor. What about the parents that used him and didn't like the results, I'm pretty sure they would simply assume that he was a bad doctor. In any event, neither parent is really going to know if he is a good doctor or not.

You should reread what you wrote... "I know he is well-regarded because my son was tested by him and I live in the area he serves." Do you really think because a doctor performs a test and live in your area that he is "well-regarded"?

I must say that considering how you assume anyone even mentioning that his prices are high or that he seems to want to do a lot of testing is smearing his name, makes me wonder if you are maybe his wife or mother.

I'm fairly new to these forums so perhaps someone could explain the rules to me - are there rules against flaming here? Both the Madoff and the wife and mother comment should be considered way over the line in my opinion.

Dr. H doesn't seem particularly well informed about the complexity of gifted+Asperger's concerns. It isn't as simply as just get Asperger's diagnosed and boom you are done. We started with an evaluation from a perfectly competent psychologist who didn't know anything about giftedness and we learned very little that was actually helpful to us. The autistic spectrum is huge and simply saying "aha that kid is on it" doesn't really help a whole lot. Especially HG and PG kids can look very much like they have Asperger's when they don't and misdiagnosis is something that happens quite a bit. Obviously, you can't really help a kid if you don't define the special need accurately in the first place.

And, even if a parent gets an accurate diagnosis of Asperger's knowing how to approach that in a gifted child may be different because there may be a question of how to fit special services in with needed academic acceleration. Social and emotional considerations may also be different when the child is both gifted and has Asperger's. Understanding the child's intellectual strengths may help in creating an effective plan to address some of their challenges.

I don't think every parent who wants to get their child evaluated for giftedness needs to hire a national expert like Dr. Webb or Dr. Amend. However, if you've exhausted local options and you are dealing with a child who is likely not just gifted but disabled, I believe it makes sense to consult with someone who has actually treated a sizable number of kids with similar challenges. Just like if your child needed heart surgery. If no one in your area was very familiar with the particulars of their condition you'd hopefully seek help from someone more experienced. People who have actually parented a 2e child know that really understanding their child's challenges and having a plan to address them is every bit as important.

As far as Dr. Amend being well regarded, that is simply a fact. He is nationally known as an expert in gifted children and in 2e children especially gifted kids with Asperger's. He's written well received books and is involved in top gifted organizations like SENG and the Davidson Institute. He was recommended to the poster for a reason. I am glad to hear she's getting a consultation and I hope she finds it helpful in sorting out what her child needs. I've been in her shoes and it is not an easy place to be. Getting further evaluations made all the difference for our child.

Now that's a bit much. We tend to shy away from personal attacks on our boards, DrH.

Kriston, like me and *many* posters on this board, have done a lot of research on GT issues and testers. When a newbie joins the board and starts blasting people with statements that seem largely based on assumptions without posting an intro or any reason they're here, it raises the suspicion of regular posters who are, as a rule, very well-informed.

I'd trust Kriston's assessment of Dr. Amend, OP.

No, you asked how I knew he was well-regarded unless I am in the business. My response was that I know because a) he tested my son, so I have some personal experience with him, and b) because he serves my local area, and so I know MANY people who have used him as a tester. He has also spoken to a group of parents of GT kids that I have attended (and to other groups in the area that I have not attended, but know about). If he were a snake-oil salesman, I think I'd have some sense of it by now...as would the entire rest of the gifted community at large!

That he is nationally recognized as an expert is, as Mia and passthepotatoes have noted, simply a fact. Do your research. Check the titles of books that people praise. His books are there. Check the speakers at national GT conferences. He is there as a speaker.

Again, I will reiterate that his eminence in the field does NOT necessarily mean that Squirt should spend the money to take her child to KY to see him. I agree with you that higher cost does not necessarily equal better value, and I have stated that repeatedly. But you made specific claims about a specific person. I found that to be problematic, and so I defended his professional status.

For the record, I am not his wife or connected to him or his business in any way. I just don't like to see aspersions cast on a good person who is not around to defend himself.

And now I feel I have defended my position on this sufficiently. Moving on...

Thanks for the laugh, Dr H. I have met both Dr. Amend and Kriston, and I can assure you that they are not married to each other! They're both lovely people though, so they do have that in common.

You appear to believe that I made my choice based on price. Not true, but then again you wouldn't know since you don't know me or my son. I've done my homework, I made the choice based on that homework. What research have you done that you can come on here full of assumptions about people and situations you know nothing about?

I'm smelling a troll!

You are correct, flaming is not encouraged here.

Did you get enough help here, Squirt?

Reposting the original question to get us back on track:

I'm not sure, Kriston. I'm still reading and looking at the info Melmichigan posted. I may have more questions after that.