My son will be starting kindergarten this fall at a gifted school, and I'm having second thoughts. He has an overall IQ of 122, which was a bit lower than we'd expected. This is probably because his working memory and processing speeds were average and high average, respectively. I know that gifted kids tend to score lower on those two parts of IQ tests, but I'm concerned that my son will be out of his element at the gifted school. He really shines at visual/spatial things, and LOVES LOVES LOVES science. However, he's not reading, though he knows his letters and letter sounds.

When others talk about their kids having relatively lower working memory/processing speeds, what kind of difference are they typically talking about? Do these scores still fall into the gifted range? And what is the cutoff for determining a kid might be 2E? I'm guessing that a kid who scores 130+ on all the other subtests but scores closer to 100 on working memory or processing speed might have a learning disorder, even though those scores are still within the "average" range, right?

Thanks for any input you may have. I just have the one kid, so I don't really know what's normal! Sometimes my son does things that make me think, wow, you are really clever, and sometimes I'm amazed he hasn't accidentally offed himself.

aeh is the expert, so I will defer to her...

Does your DS have a high GAI/reasoning ability? It sounds like he might.

BUT in terms of how things look on paper versus what we see in real life? DYS DD9 has a only slightly above-average WMI, but her PSI is in the gifted range. Her GAI is quite high. She is a quick thinker, who is extremely high achieving. She does have a bit of an "absent minded professor" quality, though.

DYS DS7 has a similar GAI, but a somewhat lower PSI. His WMI is in the gifted range, though. When a discrepancy analysis was performed with his WISC/WIAT, his performance was MUCH closer to his GAI than his FSIQ. He is also extremely high achieving (so far).

Again, my children are still young, but I think that high reasoning abilities are significant.

I don't think there is a single rule of thumb for how differences in processing vs. reasoning scores on an ability test relate to 2e, unless processing scores are below average perhaps.

I think a better indicator is comparing ability to achievement scores. If you suspect 2e, you should think about looking into WJ-III Achievement (or similar) to get that kind of comparison.

By the way, there are plenty of gifted kids who are not reading by the time they enter Kindergarten. I doubt you should worry about him being behind solely on the basis of that.

Is the gifted school private? If so, he presumably went through the admissions process and was accepted, so that is the school expressing confidence that he will do well and is not out of his league.

For older DD, PRI = VCI. WMI is much lower, above average but not gifted. Processing speed is 34%ile. Not the worst in the class, but certainly getting there. She's been diagnosed as 2E. As we see it, she thinks in a different language than the rest of us use, and the translation takes a while. More complex questions just don't take any longer to answer than very simple ones.

She had no problems in the *gifted* classroom; they were set up to support relative weaknesses while pushing high-level reasoning. (Plus, if the question is hard enough, she isn't so much slower than others - it really is a bigger problem with items that are supposed to be quick recall facts.).She needs accomodations in the *regular* classroom to show what she knows. A classroom set up for very high achievers would not have worked out without the special arrangements and understandings that we now have.

I wouldn't worry! At this point there isn't any evidence of a problem yet, and the school thinks they can handle him.

Is the gifted school public or private? It is my understanding that public schools help remediate learning disabilities, often with IEPs and 504s, and that private schools are not necessarily required to do so. Gifted schools (and gifted programs) can differ considerably in other ways as well. For example, some may support individualized curriculum and pacing, some may be lock-step one year ahead, some may be accelerated by several years.

If I recall, a score 2 standard deviations (30 points) lower than other scores is considered significant.

If it reassures you, my DYS daughter did not master reading until about 5 and a half. She then shot ahead - I wouldn't worry too much about reading at this stage.

My DYS daughter also learned to read about halfway through kindergarten. At 11, she is pretty much at an adult reading level. She finished (and loved) The Martian last week.

There is no hard and fast rule for how much of a GAI/CPI difference definitely constitutes a 2e, although there are base rates that indicate whether it is highly unusual or rare. I would be substantially more suspicious if either WMI or PSI were normatively low (below 85). But yes, it is quite possible that someone with VCI and PRI in the 130s, but WMI and PSI closer to 100, could have a second e.

Achievement was mentioned upthread. That is definitely where I would look next, especially since it's a key component of every model of learning disabilities out there. If you have them, are any of his achievement scores near or below 100? If you don't have them, and have functional concerns about his academic performance, then you might consider additional testing, preferably with the KTEA-3 or WJIV achievement.

And don't forget asynchrony!

My DYS DD could not read until she was 8. She was not interested in reading and I didn't push it. Once she became interested, she was off and running. She was reading Lord of the Rings by 10. This kiddo qualified based on her VCI (which was well above the cutoff, and so was her reading comprehension score on the achievement test).

All the kids are different. Don't worry what's typical for other kids. I would say go with your gut. You sense the IQ score is not matching what you see. I would give the gifted school a shot and see how it goes.

I have a lot of thoughts on this I have 2 2e kids. My EG ds has Developmental Coordination Disorder and Dysgraphia, and his PSI score from his most recent testing (at age 11) was just above 100. He is a kid with a very definite challenge (fine motor, handwriting, and expressive language), as well as very clear intellectual strengths. He is in a gifted program at school and does very well when he receives support for the areas he has challenges in (support can mean accommodations or remediation, depending on the challenge, the age, the expectations etc). My youngest dd is also 2e, but with a very *high* PSI score.


How did he get into the school? Did he test in? Did you push for it or was there no question that he was accepted in? If the school feels he will be a good fit, then I wouldn't worry too much about it. Did the school do the WISC or was that done separately from the school's admission process?

I'd also consider what bar is set for admission to the school? Not all gifted schools have the same requirements - there can be a huge difference between a program that requires 99% on an ability test vs a program that requires 90%.

And... one last thought on worries over school... each school year is only one school year. Chances are that you'll probably have some year at some school somewhere that won't work the best or won't be ideal. If it happens, don't beat yourself up over it, make a correction and move on.


Was there any split in his PRI/VCI scores? Or were they both above 130? I'm not quite sure why his FSIQ was so low if both PRI/VCI were above 130, but I'm not a professional, I'm just a mom looking at my ds' test scores, who had an "average" psi and not-so-high WM either... so most likely you should ignore me


I think you'll see a lot of posts *here* from parents who's kids have that type of a split and also have challenges - but keep in mind, the people who are posting are probably more often the people who have a reason to post, which is typically some type of challenge. I think this type of split is not typical, but it also isn't necessarily meaningful (in terms of some type of challenge), unless you are seeing other things indicating your child has a challenge - and at 5, not having attended school yet or attempted typical academics, it's really early and you might not notice if he does have some type of challenge.

It's also possible age plays a part in the test scores - I've heard that IQ scores aren't necessarily stable/reliable until 8-10 years old, and when my ds was first tested at 5, and a gap between VCI/PRI and PSI was noted, the psychologist assumed the lower PSI score was due to perfectionism and not understanding (at 5) the importance of working quickly on a timed test.

[quoteHe really shines at visual/spatial things, and LOVES LOVES LOVES science. However, he's not reading, though he knows his letters and letter sounds.[/quote]

My ds wasn't reading at 5 either (as far as I knew). Within a few months of starting kindergarten, he was reading light-years above grade level. All kids are different with re to when they start reading, and I wouldn't necessarily see not reading yet as meaningful. Once he's in school, receiving regular instruction, if he's not progressing *then* I'd look for meaning in the WISC scores.


There isn't a cut-off, because being "2E" means there is more going on than just a gap in test scores - there have to be other things happening that are observable and quantifiable - in my ds' case, for instance, the clues were in refusal to do schoolwork, handwriting characteristics, not meeting developmental milestones etc. When a learning disability/etc is diagnosed, there is usually a thorough evaluation that includes IQ/ability tests, achievement testing, observations, parent/teacher interviews etc. You can't just look at a set of test scores, see a gap, and assume a child is going to have a struggle in school.


The key word is "might".

Have you noticed anything else outside of the test scores that makes you think your ds possibly has a struggle with learning?


Sounds pretty typical to me At least in my family lol!

Best wishes,

polarbear

sounds familiar.

this is a wonderful description, something we've seen but haven't been able to put into words in the past (re: our ds).

I have a kid with a huge gap between VCI/PRI and WMI (memory) and PSI (processing). The difference between his VCI and PSI is more than 4 SD (>60 points) and for WMI it is a 3 SD diff. In his case he is 2e. Then again I am one of the parents that is here because it hasn't been smooth sailing as polarbear wisely highlights above. This is a kid where very few things have ever been smooth

TBH his 2nd e wasn't really obvious until grade 1 when they had to write more but there were some signs that in retrospect had us thinking *something* was up. The biggest thing I've learned is to take things day by day and year to year. It is usually harder to switch into a gifted program than it is to opt out. Give it a try, see if it is a good fit, keep your mommy/daddy radar set on high and be proactive if there are issues, if not then enjoy!

Being able to read early really is overrated. Look at my DD4 who was an early reader.

What is on her summer reading list?

Minecraft for Dummies

Most of students entering K at her GT school (soft cutoff is around 98 percentile) are non-readers or emergent readers. By second grade, reading levels vary widely but they accommodate the range.

If your son loves learning and is passionate about science, I don't see why he won't do well at a gifted school.

Thank you all so much for your thoughts. We're travelling, so I'm just now revisiting this thread.


It's a private gifted school, and we went through the admissions process when we started noticing he wasn't quite like his preschool classmates (e.g., asking really complicated questions like what did we evolve from; doing 60 piece puzzles at 3; recommendation of testing from a teacher). The admissions process included the WPPSI-IV. There was also a class visit in which the potential students underwent additional testing (which my son thought was great fun). I am guessing they wouldn't have admitted him if they didn't think he was capable, but I can't quiet the voice in the back of my mind that he is going to feel inadequate and/or that they admitted him because they didn't have enough students to fill the class this year (there are still openings). The school does not post minimum IQ scores, though the tester we used tests a lot of kids seeking admission to this school. She noted that while there certainly would be students with higher scores in the school, he had a good chance of admission.

His VSI was above 130, but his FRI and VCI were in the 120s.

This is what I keep trying to tell myself! I know it's just kindergarten, but he really loves learning, and I don't want to quench his fire for it.

So if I am summarizing correctly, his VSI was in the 130s, FRI and VCI in the 120s, PSI in the 110s, and WMI in the 100s. That is likely to generate, not only an FSIQ in the 120s (as you reported), but a GAI in the 120s as well (possibly unless the 120s index scores are high 120s). Unless VSI is well above 130 (approaching or exceeding 140), this most likely does not constitute a significant split among the GAI index scores (VCI, VSI, FRI). A PSI in the 110s is not all that unusual among the GT population, with or without a second exceptionality. A WMI in the 100s may or may not be functionally significant.

I mentioned upthread the question of actual functional concerns. Do you have any, other than not being a reader at the moment? (Which others have addressed.)

To answer the original question, DD has a larger split, her PRI was 147 and PSI was 94. She scored even lower on some of the fluency measures on the Woodcock Johnson (like math). One can easily see the effects of this gap in real life. For whatever reason, her working memory on the WISC was in the 96th percentile but I see other aspects of memory where she struggles. DS also has a gap but it's not as big. He was also in the 140's for PRI, but working memory and processing speed were around 110-115. He was able to run circles around DD in terms of learning multiplication, even though his overall GAI was a lot lower. He is also not nearly as slow and spacey. I do think the gap does have a small effect with him, but it's not something that concerns me the way the gap does with DD. DD also has more obvious ADHD.

I'd ask about the retention rate at the school. If people stick around, it's likely that they can accommodate kids with a wider range of abilities. There's also more to success in school than numbers on an IQ test, so don't automatically assume that he'll be one of the low performers.

Personally I'd rather my child be at the towards the bottom/middle in a challenging and interesting environment that at the top of a class that is not challenging. Others might have different opinions and want their child to be number 1.

If they accept say the top 10% then your son will fit in better than those in the 99.9 percentile. As long as the programme is good, well run and developmentally appropriate he should have a good year. Relax.

This is beginning to sound like a child in the Optimum Intelligence and socially optimal intelligence range.

I don't have near the level of giftedness or 2e as others here but wanted to let you know that I too have a kid who's scores were scattered and lower than expected. DD8 was also doing puzzles at 3 that stumped 8-9 yo but reading didn't really take off until she was in 1st grade.
Anyway, we also struggled with the decision to send her to the gifted program and decided to do so despite not yet knowing what is going on. I am now convinced she'll be able to let her strengths grow and bring her confidence up in addition to perhaps having better odds of finding kindred spirits of other smart, quirky, anxious, kind kids while we support her challenges. It was reassuring to have the asst. principle and a former teacher both say (fully knowledgable of her challenges) that if anyone should go to the gifted program, it's DD.
Go with your gut...

I have a child (DS12) who had a 30+ difference between GAI and PSI on the only FSIQ for which we have scores (he recently had neuropsych eval, awaiting results). He has always tested well on state achievement, and seemed fairly remarkable in his "regular ed" classroom since very young age.

Our district handles gifted ed somewhat uniquely, I think, bc the program tests the children and doesn't assess the performance part--identification/service is based 100% on GAI (I think 133 is the current cut-off. My son is in 135-145 range, until PSI is included).

This works really well for the elementary program--gifted services are one day a week, in a standalone site, non-graded, exploratory, depth and complexity is the model.

As an aside: DS pretty much tanked in his first year of "rigor," in middle school--I think bc 2e stuff really began to matter. The MS program is essentially acceleration, amounted to a 1-2 year grade skip. He could handle the content but not the format. I suspect he'd have the same troubles at any MS, but that is conjecture.

My point: there is a lot of disparity when it comes to programs, services, delivery. If you place a child in an environment that is a good fit, it's likely the performance piece of IQ won't be a big deal, especially at such a young age. I encourage you to investigate the educational philosophy of the program you are considering.