Hello! My son's Wisc 4 shows he has subtest scores of 19 for digit span, 19 for block design and 19 for matrix resoning. Everything else was average or slightly below (8 for comprehension and coding).

I normallu hear of gifted kids having low working memory. Does anyone elses child here have a wmi that hit the ceiling?

The psych said he had never come accross such a difference in wmi and comprehension, infact it was found in 0% of the wisc reference group.

What does this mean! He has needs but no one can diagnose him with anything.

Hope you can shed some light.

Sorry I made a mistake. He got 19 in letter number sequencing, average in block design.

No they didnt do extended norms, the psych had never heard of extended norms!!

My son has comprehension issues but because he us average in comprehension they will not help him.

He has had autism tests but did not meet criteria. Could high wmi mask/compensate for a disability?

I don't know how old your son is, but those are the kinds of scores that may be associated with a strong (i.e. genius level) math ability.
We've just discovered through a variety of language tests (screened for 2e) that a gifted working memory doesn't translate to strong comprehension. My DS didn't hit the ceiling but he got an 18 in letter/number sequencing, and his language tests put him at the ceiling (19) for auditory recall.
Comprehension was good on the WISC (95th percentile) and much lower on more sensitive language testing.
Hmmm...and granted I may very well be projecting my own situation, but my DS was just diagnosed with an expressive/receptive language impairment. Has your DS had a thorough speech screening? I think this aspect of development was overlooked in my son because he has some extreme strengths. We're having a lot of lightbulb moments around here, as it becomes clear that he is 2e with average to low average social and abstract communication.
For what it's worth, my DS's PRI wasn't as strong as your DS's but still gifted. He far prefers math, and discrete challenging (non-wordy), tasks. Will solve math problems without batting an eye, years over grade level. Will have a toddler tantrum over age appropriate language homework.

I'd like to put in a gentle note saying that very high scores on segments of an IQ test don't equate to genius. Genius is a trait that's poorly understood, but it's certainly complex and not measurable with a simple set of tests.

I react a bit to this type of phrasing because it can end up putting a lot of the wrong kind of pressure on kids.




OP, did your son stop trying or get tired on the parts of the test where his scores were average? Does he have a learning disability?

Not the Wisc but both my kids had working memories above the 99.9th percentile.

I am replying to these but its not showing up?

What type of needs? Can you tell us a bit more about the types of things he struggles with (if there are things he struggles with).

Although not quite as large of a discrepancy, my dyslexic dd's strongest score (and it's super-strong) is working memory. Yet she has a challenge (and relatively low score on a different type of memory, measured on the WJ-III Cognitive - associative memory). She also has scores that bounce around all over the place on ability and achievement tests - and the best we've been able to figure out from the uneven scores that don't seem to mesh to mean anything is that the lower scores are tied to difficulty understanding the questions related back to her challenges with reading. For instance, she's very *very* good at math but doesn't test well on standardized tests. When she's doing math homework and has a question - 9 times out of 10 the question is due to not comprehending what the problem has asked, not a lack of understanding the math. That might not sound like it makes sense... unless you're parenting a child who struggles with reading

Best wishes,

polarbear

Testing you can see this?

Ok! So he is 8yo. He was tested for asd twice but did not meet criteria. His theory of mind score was high - which shocked us as he appears to lack social understanding. He was tested by a salt who said inference probs but not bad enough to be a disability.
He has been diagonsed with sensory processing issues & tic disorder. He is rigid, needs everything to be "just so" according to the rules in his head", anxious if things are not right, doesnt understand social etiquette, addicted to computers, delayed with imaginative play.

Top set at school in maths but went unrecognised for years. Seen as bright but not amazing by teachers..

Seeks praise from authority to the point where he gets angry if he doesnt get it, perfectionistic, overly critical of others, obsessed with dates & time

Doesnt know meaning of many words (although read at age 2). Examples- doesnt know meaning of 'contains' or 'scarlett' 'recognise".

Doesnt know meaning of many words (although read at age 2). Examples- doesnt know meaning of 'contains' or 'scarlett' 'recognise".

Doesnt know meaning of many words (although read at age 2). Examples- doesnt know meaning of 'contains' or 'scarlett' 'recognise".

I'd more trust the spiked results and find the overall results suspect.

Speculation:
With known perfectionism, I wonder if he answered the tester with frequent "I don't knows" which internally translated to "I'm only 98.32% confident in my answer."

IQ tests require a certain number of failures to discontinue a section, which is a nasty trap if someone tends to clam up once their confidence is undermined.

When my eight year gets into that kind of mindset, I have to ask very soft, open-ended probing questions. Like, "are you familiar with different meanings for the word 'contains'" vs. "What is the meaning of 'contains'?"

Obviously, I don't know if that is what you are facing.

lollymum, I can see it! I am guessing you are on moderation for a short period of time simply because you're a new poster.

I didn't see your reply earlier that mentioned issues with comprehension. That might fit with the ups and downs you are seeing on the various subtests of the WISC. Definitely an issue with my dd who has a reading challenge - it's not that she can't comprehend deeply, but taking information in via written word doesn't work well for her - at all. If it's reading comprehension you're wondering about, have you tried looking into how your ds does with audiobooks? If it's something else, ignore that suggestion!

Best wishes,

polarbear

ps - did your ds have any type of achievement testing along with the WISC, such as WIAT or WISC? If he did, were there a lot of highs and lows in the results? If so, it might help to look at the subtest scores grouped by the type of prompt (visual, reading, spoken) and type of response (written, oral), and was the subtest timed vs untimed. Sometimes patterns will pop out when you look at the subtests that way that will give you a clue re what's up.

OP, it sounds like your DS has some autism traits, not enough for a diagnosis. I would also say a lot anxiety traits.

I found with my DS that he had a lot of traits at an early age, and in a year or two it may be enough for an ADD or ASP disorder. Not so at a younger age, because it's mild. I notice more issues as he's aging. Kids are developing where he is not.

I think that you may keep in mind that ASP is a spectrum disorder. It's not a "yes" or a "no." It's possible that your DS may exhibit some of the characteristics and these may become more debilitating as he ages.

I would suggest (at least) some social skills therapy and then some group therapy to assist with social skills etiquette. This will at least help him interact with peers and may mitigate his need for approval. Executive skills therapy may help with the perfectionism and flexibility.

If you have a speech and language facility in your area, I would consider it. It's possible as other posters mentioned that there may be a variety of issues driving the scores. However, when you provide the comprehension score, the issues with social interactions, and inflexibility it's resonating as a language issue that may be tied to global traits of HFA. I don't know better than trained professionals, but I wouldn't necessarily delete it from your radar.

ASD, not ASP. Apologies.

My DD6 has a high working memory (141 on WISC IV) although not as high as your son's. However she had a very "unspiky" profile overall. She is very mathy even though her VCI and PRI were almost identical. She's intense and focused but socially very normal.

You are right. Ds does clam up & becomes anxious if he thinks he cant do it. This leads to him not being able to do it! However he can do things well when there is no pressure

Hi we are in the UK and the tester had not even heard of extended norms. What hope do we have

Hi he also has trouble with hearing stories & watching films- he cannot tell you what happened!

He didnt have achievement testing done, but I think I may try to get these done.

Its so frustrating. As a pre-schooler he was like a genius. Now, he is bright but also appears delayed. However the wisc shows he has the potential but for some reason he is not achieving it

Thank you. I know and my husband know that ds is on the spectrum but the medics say he is not. So hard to get help without a diagnosis. I was thinking private specialist SLT although its £100 an hour

My son also has traits, but not enough for a diagnosis. It's enough to cause below age level issues with social and abstract communication and adaptive emotional responses.

I don't know how it works where you are, but the key to a language diagnosis was not that the language scores were far below average. Many were average and even above average. It was the discrepancy with the WISC cognitive function. A three standard deviation difference between cognitive function and language understanding was convincing enough to diagnose a learning disability.

OP on a positive note-- my DS is putting his high auditory working memory and math skills to fantastic use learning to play the piano.

Does your DS enjoy music? I have no idea what constitutes "talent or genius" as pointed out earlier, but a gifted working memory and strong math skills may lend themselves to learning music. Chess may be a good option.

Piano is very soothing to my DS- chess triggered frustration and he wasn't patient enough, but that is his temperament.

My ds9 has an exceptional wm - but doesn't have some of the traits you have described now. He seems to comprehend everything, it seems. He has the perfectionism and anxiety on/off though. Also has the high math ability. We've been trying to encourage him to play the piano but so far no luck.

IQ testing is somewhat different than what Barry Scott Kaufman's article addresses and other research have done. Daniel Tammet is from the UK and you may have better luck with who has studied him than your average tester. I'd try to find an academic who studies kids with exceptional wm if I were you.

Dh is from the UK, but we're in the US now. We've been thinking on/off how glad we're not in the UK at the moment with this - but also how we may at some point move back for educational opportunities. We'll see.

My ds7 got 148 on WMI on the WISC. He might be a math genius, which is why I had him tested. He scored 19 on digit span and 18 on letter number sequencing. He scored 17 in block design and 19 in matrix reasoning. His VCI was 108. He does not have difficulty with comprehnesion, but his area of gifteness is definitely only math.

So are you saying a 3 standard deviation between WMI and verbal comprehension (as on my sons wisc).should be a good indication of disability?

Does he have a spikey profile?

Sorry who is Daniel Tammet x

Kind of. His PSI was 112. His PRI was 137 and it was the 12 in picture concepts that brought that down. Block design and matrix reasoning were high, 17 and 19. That is consistent for him, though. I think picture concepts is a more verbal skill. I don't think it belongs in the same category with block design and matrix reasoning. My ds7 is also an exceptional chess player, in addition to being very good at math. His chess skills are approaching adult level. He always beats me and has for over a year. Not that I'm awesome at chess, but I understand the game.

Daniel Tammet is a prodigious savant - http://www.danieltammet.net/. He's from the UK. He's been featured on TedX. Stephen Wiltshire (human camera) is another prodigious savant who you may have heard about or seen featured on TV.

Scott Barry Kaufman did an interview series with him and on savant syndrome - http://www.creativitypost.com/artic..._daniel_tammet_part_i_embracing_the_wide

Simon Baron Cohen, I think, diagnosed Tammet's asperger's - http://www.autismresearchcentre.com/people_baron-cohen

Dr. Darold Treffert is the world's authority on savant syndrome and was a consultant on the movie Rain Man - https://www.wisconsinmedicalsociety.org/professional/savant-syndrome/faqs/

Davidson article on extreme precocity: prodigies, savants, and children of extraordinary high IQ - http://www.davidsongifted.org/db/Articles_id_10467.aspx

Joanne Ruthsatz's study on prodigies (which I think includes Jake Barnett who is another Aspie prodigious savant and has been featured on TedX) - http://www.smartplanet.com/blog/pur...z-on-the-common-trait-of-all-prodigies/. Kristin Barnett wrote a book, The Spark, on her son Jake. She mentions Dr. Ruthsatz's study in the book as well as about Jake's traits and autism.

DS7 had 19s on the working memory wisc subtests. His comprehension was slightly lower but still quite high. He absolutely has social issues that affect him on a daily basis, so I wouldn't say that all kids with ASD issues would score poorly on comprehension. The nature of the wisc comprehension subtest is to answer about the practical or usual course of action is in a specific situation. For example, "why do you wash your hands".

One reason to score less than amazingly is just being concise. For example you could answer with, "I do it to keep my hands clean" and then not follow up with any additional explanation. Or someone could go into detail about the demands of living in a community, or over-population induced epidemics, or bacteria, or all of those things. (And while the first statement may be really a summary of the second, the second answer likely garners more points). This is how I think my DS must have achieved a higher end score on comprehension, just going on and on until the tester told him it was time to please stop. Because it certainly was not from some intuitive (or learned either) grasp of social convention.

Not appearing amazing in math to everyone at this age is not too surprising and can be a reflection of schools' focus on operations. When I think of math ability it's the ability to juggle symbols and infer relations and follow a line of logic, think dimensionally, and so on. Very different from school math at age 7 or 8, which is more about quickly adding and subtracting small sums, maybe multiplying which is just more adding, possibly dividing which is more subtracting, etc.

Thank you. Very useful insight into the comprehension part of the wisc. Do you know that for sure or is it just an educated guess x

Brill thanks!!

How frustrating.

I personally wouldn't bother with extended norms. You have useful information right here, and since your goal is for a diagnosis and not for the highest possible score, the extended norms won't tell you much more than what you know: WM was way ahead of the other areas, and you have ongoing language issues. Anxiety very much can affect these scores.

My family practices a model of "symptom whack-a-mole." You've noted a couple of overarching issues. I'd find a way to treat those issues and then reassess from there based on progress or lack thereof.

Have you consulted with a speech therapist? I've found them to be rather flexible and able to treat the child in front of them with incomplete testing information.

At the same time, I would look into ways to address the anxiety. Depending on the child, it could be cognitive behavior therapy, a huge amount of exercise, a trial of meds, or social groups (which you'll find through a speech therapist).

Not all of them are as practical as "why do you wash your hands", but they do speak of the rules of social conventions, which quite a lot of kids on the spectrum can articulate. This is a completely different skill from being able to recognize and apply social reasoning skills in live situations. Most of the time, overly concise responses will be queried (by a skilled evaluator), which should pull out sufficient additional information in a child who actually knows more. But it is true that some taciturn examinees artificially lower their scores by the brevity of their responses.

Other reasons for scoring poorly on Comprehension include expressive language disorders, and cultural differences. In one of my other posts (sorry, now I can't remember where I put it!) recently, I mentioned that picture concepts also has a certain amount of verbal loading, so that the PRI may not be representative of his true nonverbal reasoning ability. Block design is also affected by processing speed and fine-motor skills. I'd be interested to see how his motor-free visual-spatial skills are (OTs test this, and there are some measures on the WJIII and the new WISC-V, among others).

I have not seen the wisc itself. I was curious when DS took the wisc and read "Essentials of WISC assessment" which offered a lot of insight into the test, and into uneven profiles. The sample question was online somewhere, can't recall where. Another sample question (which is likely made up, not from the real test) I saw was, "why should you tell the truth?"

Comprehension is one of the subtests that offers points for answer completeness. Vocabulary is another. It makes me feel like a tester who says, "can you tell me more", if they don't have a good rapport with the child or they say their query phrase in the wrong tone or while looking the other direction, it's possible for that to affect how much more the child feels like offering up, especially for the younger kids or those who may not really care minute to minute about the points aspect.

The use of the term "comprehension" for that subtest is pretty different from a more common educational use of the word, which might more be whether one can distill a story or line of thought to its essential parts.

You had also mentioned a low score on coding. My DS had this also, similar number, 8 or 9, can't recall. I think of coding and symbol search as "output speed". DSs slowness really affects his school experience: he experiences frustration at getting his thoughts down on paper no matter the subject matter.