DS just had the WJ Achievement as part of his IEP eval. He is 2e and the school refuses to subject accelerate him for math. (probably because of the second e and probably for other reasons, like not wanting to subject accelerate anyone anymore). Does anyone know if you can take the Standard Score and figure out a grade level? Would they know if I asked for more detail about grade level for each subject?
So for instance for math it says:
Broad Math Cluster SS: 155 >99.9 percentile
Calculation SS: 161 >99.9 percentile
Math Fluency SS: 127 97 (maybe this involved handwriting and that's why it's lower?)
Applied Problems SS: 141 99.7 percentile

So what grade level math is he proficient with? He is 6 in first grade. Is this scored based on his age or his grade? And for the standard scores of 161 and 155, is that similar to an IQ score of 161 or 155 in terms of percentile? I'd like to know how far above 99.9 percentile that is.

IEP meeting tomorrow. I'd like to try to advocate for DS in terms of differentiated work.

My son took the WJ-III Achievement test in December of 1st grade (age 6.5) and had similar scores to your DS. The report for DS states they used 'updated age-based norms' and his Grade Equivalent for Broad Math was in the mid 4th grade. My son had just finished EPGY's 3rd grade math curriculum, so IMO, the fact that your DS is scoring this high without receiving additional instruction in school clearly demonstrates how highly gifted he is in math. I sure hope the school provides differentiation in light of his scores.

The WJ-III scores have a mean of 100 and a standard deviation of 15, so the percentiles would be the same as for standard scores from an IQ test such as the WISC.

It should be age normed.
Here's a percentile chart
http://www.iqcomparisonsite.com/iqtable.aspx
Use the 15 SD Percentile column. I don't think the scores are as rare as the chart indicates, but those scores are still pretty rare. The "age equivalent" scores are probably a couple to several years older, though this doesn't necessarily indicate possession of higher grade knowledge.

I'm sure your kid could handle maybe 2 or 3 years acceleration. Ideally you want a way of moving quickly through the material to avoid gaps.

The scores should be age normed. The overall score would be 4th grade. Just a word of caution with the school - his calculation is impressive but the school might think he is simply hot-housed. Focus on Broad Math score which is overall math score. Applied problems really shows a kids math reasoning skills and while your son's is high, it is not greater than 99.9% If the school knows this, they might give you push back on more than one year acceleration. Again, this is just a note of caution on how to approach the school, not in any way intended to diminish your son's scores.

When DS took the WJ-III Ach. last spring, we received "age equivalents" (in year-month format). He wasn't 5 yet, so I don't think grade equivalents are typically provided, but it would seem as though they should be available for a child over 5.

I do not think that you can necessarily compare the SAS scores to IQ, unless they also take the Cognitive Battery. We never took that test, so perhaps someone whose DC did can chime in. Still, those are extremely high math scores and they certainly indicate a current high level of math achievement (many articles available about how this relates to "g"). I assumed that my DS's scores were subject to some inflation because he was young, but since your DS was older at the time he took these tests, those scores are likely more reliable.

This is the test that is timed, which is likely why it's a slightly lower score. From a note you mentioned in the other thread today about the other school, I think that your ds was given the option of oral responses rather than handwriting? Or did I interpret that incorrectly? I wouldn't worry too much about a 97th percentile vs 99th - both are great scores!


This is jmo, but I don't think there is any way to answer this question with this type of test - the # and types of problems he's been asked to do are too limited. The "Grade Level Equivalent" that is given simply means that the "average" 50th percentile student in grade X had the same score. The thing I would do to try to figure out what his grade level proficiency is to try to find your school district's curriculum standards for each grade - you can find them online in many school districts. Look through the standards for 1st, then 2nd, then 3rd etc grades and compare them to what you know your ds can do - this will give you a good idea of where he's at relative to which grade level. When you ask for acceleration, you can start by using the WJ-III data, but if the school balks at that, I'd take your list of what you know he knows vs grade level (from looking through the district curriculum standards) and then request end-of-grade level tests, or whatever achievement test they *will* accept.

Good luck at your meeting tomorrow - I hope it goes well!

polarbear

On Aleks he's about 40 percent proficient for third grade math but only did it for about 5 days and hasn't done it in a couple months. It was too hard for him because some of the calculations involved copying on scratch paper. I've been doing 3rd grade Singapore Math with him for the last couple weeks (once I realized the school's not going to do anything) and he did fluency on Big Brainz over the summer but otherwise I've done very little at home with him. If I asked him what the perimeter of something is or "what is a rhombus?" I don't know if he'd know what i'm talking about. So it sounds like WJ is mostly about number operations, fluency, and word problems rather than concepts or "standards"?

polarbear, he said he had to write for the math test, so I assume they did it the "correct" way. I'm not sure how they were able to read his writing though! On the very brief report I have it says for the calculation and applied problems sections he did not show his work and did everything in his head (wonder if he was "supposed" to show his work, and just refused, or what?)

Strangely on the writing section his lowest score was 80th percentile for writing fluency. Luckily the OT also did other handwriting assessments and saw how awkward he is with writing, how illegible it is, he has hand tremors, and forms most of the letters incorrectly.

For reading he was overall 96th percentile with a 96 in comprehension and 96 in fluency. He was 99th percentile in fluency for CBM's (his speech is slow/dysfluent due to dyspraxia and he tends to read aloud at the same slow speed no matter what level he is reading). His teacher is making him read Level L books (second grade?) saying his comprehension is poor. Last year in Kindergarten he was at an O and the teacher said he had no problem comprehending. Does a 96th percentile for fluency/comprehension indicate being only 1 year ahead?

My son had almost the same WJ-III broad math score at the end of 1st grade. His age equivalent score was 10-1 (10 years 1 month), meaning that his raw score was the same as a 10 year old at the 50th percentile. A 10 year old at the 50th percentile has *not* mastered 4th grade math. At the time my son took the test, he had just finished Primary Mathematics 2B, and I would say that he had mastered 2nd grade material but no more.

Go back to your tester. Our WJIII (v2.0) results provided both Age Equivalency *and* Grade Equivalency.

-- -- --

I took a very purposeful route with the school's group considering the skip for DS. They weren't too keen on a skip at the outset... but when faced with my mind-blowing logic, they were cowed into submission.

Basically, it went like this.

Me: "Yeah, his scores are absolutely off the charts... Wowsers! Why, my 8yo ended up with Grade Equivalencies of 12.8 - 13.0 across the board!!!!"

Me: "Of course, it would be patently ridiculous to even consider putting DS in the 12th grade, right? Even considering those amazing scores, no one would suggest for a minute that he's ready for 12th grade or beyond."

Them: "Yeah, that would be totally unreasonable."

Me: "BUT -- I have to believe a reasonable person would look at this and be able to determine that, based on those same scores, he is not likely in an ideal placement currently, right?"

Them: "Ummm..."

Me: "In other words, just as it would be absurd to look at the results and suggest 12th grade, it's equally absurd (to me) to look at the scores and suggest leaving him where he is (4th)."

That's good!
I am for sure going to ask how they plan to accommodate DS's obvious advanced math ability when his writing looks like chicken scratches. On the WJ he apparently did everything in his head. Is that what they want him to do going forward or are they going to figure out a way for him to both learn math and show that he knows it?

If you can go back to your tester and also ask what grade level his scores would place him at the 90-95th percentile, that will give you a better idea of what appropriate placement would be. For example, if he were to place at the 90-95th percentile for students at the end of 2nd grade, then 3rd grade math would be a good place to start.

As for handwriting, aside from the "showing what you know" thing, from a practical standpoint, he'll need to write things down when he can no longer hold everything in mind. For many kids this happens as numbers get larger in 4th grade or so. It happens again when problems get more complicated in algebra and again when writing geometry proofs (which is more showing your thought process than not being able to hold everything in mind).

Yes, I'm very curious to know what kinds of problems he was even answering in his head. Other than math fluency questions, I've never asked him to do that. On the report it says he was off by a couple numbers a couple times, doing it in his head. If he could write, his score would probably be even higher.

Another reference point that might be useful is that when my other son was 9 years old, his grade equivalent score was post high school level for math. That equated to being able to solve problems like x+3=27. Seriously.

Grade equivalents are not that useful on the WJ for deciding where the child should be placed. I would use scores like this to motivate a curriculum-based assessment to determine placement.

As a heads up, though, writing can present difficulties in math out of level. If your child is having difficulties with the pencil and paper production, then this does need to be brought to the discussion. DS doesn't have any documented writing disability, but a 7 year old's handwriting just can't fit into the space provided for 5th grade math. He's required some accommodations there, as well as flexibility from the teacher on his written explanations. As it is, he's not really placed at a level where he's learning much math, but he is finally at a level where he's learning to show his work and explain it. These are important foundational skills.

So what kinds of accommodations can you get for the handwriting being the wrong size for the math paper? We have the same issue. I suggested blowing up the math sheets on a copier but the teacher didn't say anything. Plus he doesn't always line up his numbers into columns. He doesn't even use spacing between words when he writes so how would he be able to line up small numbers.

I don't know what the solution is. He may NEVER have decent writing but he still will need to do math and math ability is probably his greatest strength. What happens if a kid does not have hands or they are paralyzed and can't write or type at all? They still need to learn math.

DS has 1/2" graph paper for lining things up, and for tests, the teacher (or an aide, I assume) is actually cutting and pasting to give DS enough space. Since she discovered a lot of kids needed something like that, all have the graph paper and expanded tests now. He gets nagging for explaining his work.

I see a huge amount of grey area on how much math DS "deserves" to learn as limited by his significantly younger age. DS has no documented disability in this area, and age is not a disability. (He does have documented disabilities which I think certainly affect this, but I have no ground to stand on here because the folks that wrote the diagnosis report didn't think so.)

Certain skills really need to be in place before he hits algebra. Even if cognitively he's ready, if the rest of the student isn't, then our position is to scratch the math itch another way and work to get the rest of the skills in place. YMMV.

DS7 uses graph paper to help him keep numbers lined up, and we have made it bigger squares to help with hand fatigue from trying to write smaller then he is ready for. I will sometimes write out the original problem for him if it needs to be copied out of the book and so will his EL teacher just to cut out some of the writing. This has helped him keep going on his 5th grade homework and not need as many breaks.

Went to the meeting. The special ed guy that tested DS said he was amazed and has never seen anything like that (guess he doesn't get too many 2e kids, although he's also been a general ed teacher). Everyone was laughing about the "Very Superior" categorizations. He said DS was solving word problems with several steps in his head without writing anything down. He said that DS was solving problems he himself would find challenging (what?!). Anyway, he said it's a huge problem that DS does not show work and he has to be able to write stuff down. I said that I agree but DS is going to need to learn math, not just writing, and if it's all about writing, he is going to hate math. I asked what their solution is. No one said anything. The whole meeting was about how they are going to pull him out for this, that and the other thing (even adapted PE), but they didn't talk at all about accommodations in the classroom. The whole focus is going to be on getting him to write legibly and proficient with other motor skills.
What if he is never going to write well? I asked if there is a way for him to do math without writing (for instance ipad or computer) and no one knew of anything and acted like I'm just trying to get him off the hook and he's not going to learn if he never writes. That's not what I meant--just that there's a limit to how much he can write. We did talk about graph paper, but whether it will actually be used in the classroom, who knows.

So while I'm glad they are going to give him services, I don't know if they understand that this is a disability and he's probably always going to struggle. It's not a delay. Sigh. The special ed director was there and he seemed to understand what I was getting at about needing modifications, so once I get the draft of the IEP I will probably call him.

They also completely ignored the fact that he's so far ahead in math (and reading as well)--it didn't even cross their minds that it's bizarre for him to be doing 1st grade math, and I didn't feel like getting into it with 10 people there. I might schedule a meeting with just the principal, and if that doesn't work, send DS's test results to the district psych.