I am new to the forum and have a question about the National Merit Scholarship program. The entry quidelines seem pretty specific. I have trouble understanding how my DS would fit into this program. He is only 10 but is working at a 10th grade level. Obviously he has no plans to enter college full time in two years. But, if we waited until he was the age of a highschooler, he would no longer be doing high school work. Are there any other families with this type of situation and how do you go about fitting your child/ren into this and other programs. We contacted the Duke TIP program and were told that we could choose which talent search to do because he is the chronological age for a fifth grader, but is doing work well beyond that and would benefit more from taking the ACT over the Explore test. Help!

Corinna

Thanks Dottie.
I thought the sole benefit of the talent search was the opportunity to test at above grade levels. I'm sure I'm missing something. I'm so new to this. Are there any other benefits?

Corinna

Hi CSmith. You mentioned he is working at the 10th grade level but no intentions of entering college in two years. May I ask, what are your plans in two years?

Perhaps those options would be interesting to explore.

Ren

Ren, Definitely college expectations in two years - just not the "full time college" that I thought I understood from their website. Of course that could change. It's hard to think of a 12 year old with 15 credit hours (also because I'm not sure he would be comfortable on campus alone and I have four others younger than him to take care of).

Corinna

You certainly have your hands full. Is he a member of Davidson, can they help you with options? There was an article about the 10 year old from CA going off to some IVY school. They must have programs.

Some one mentioned that there are several US government programs for the PG. Since I have one 3 year old, it is not on the radar, but some people here must know.

Ren

Ren-
I am unaware of any government program for PG kids. I suppose if they existed, there wouldn't be as much need for a private organization like Davidson.

For the OP-
We let our kids set the pace and determine when they go away to school. Son number one went away at an age appropriate time with 50 college credits on his record. FWIW, many of the more competitive schools will use these classes as proof of a homeschoolers ability to perform, but they will not accept the credits. Son two (11) will be starting with a single college course in the next year, if we can get him in. He has a set of very competitive ACT scores, so I am hoping that we can avoid a real battle. He's thinking he may want to attend a service academy, which would mean that he would need to be at least 17.
A younger kid simply would not be up to the physical demands. We're keeping things open though, and trying to see where DS will really thrive.

I'm with Lorel--Davidson is the only program I know of for PG kids, and it's not a government program. If there are other programs, I'd love to hear about them!

I also second Lorel's approach to college. There are lots of things to do with a HSd child without sending him/her off to college at age 12. Distance-learning, studying unusual subjects that kids don't usually get exposure to, mentorships and internships to explore career options (since choosing one path can be a serious hardship for PG kids), volunteerism, and travel are all options to slow down the move to college. I would take advantage of any and all of these that interest the child before I'd start the "real" college process.

We certainly don't want to "push" our son into college. He has already shown some interest in taking some online courses at the University in our city. We have applied to Davidson and are hoping to hear good news next month. One concern I have is to have him finish formal high school studies and have little or no academic work going on for the next 7 years or so and then trying to apply for these programs. Does that make sense? Anyway, I'm thankful for the responses and discussion.

Corinna

Oh, of course you're not pushing! You're running along behind trying to keep up! I think everyone here recognizes that. Many people here are running right along with you!



Definitely, it does! Oh yes!

But I do think it's possible--albeit challenging--to balance some more unusual academic subjects with some more traditional ones or to dig more in depth into traditional subjects and slow things down a bit at the high school/college level. I think moderating speed through lateral thinking is harder to do at the elementary/junior high levels than it is to do as kids progress. Other than problem solving and word problems, how do you go deeper into addition and subtraction or handwriting? Speed is just about all you have to get past the "easy stuff" and finally get to work that requires real thought. But you can do more with calculus or science experiments or argumentative writing at the high school level. There are lots of books to read and papers and stories to write and mathematical and scientific puzzles to solve.

I guess what we're planning to do when we're in your shoes (and I thank my lucky stars that we're not there yet!) is to seek out ways to broaden and deepen our child's educational experience. I think it's easy to get into the "This is what you study in high school and then you're done" mode of thought, when that's not necessarily required, just traditional. Thinking creatively about other academic topics or disciplines or uses of his time than "the usual suspects" might keep your child moving forward without having to go off to college too soon.

I'm on my first cup of coffee today, so I'm not sure I'm making sense... Does that follow?

I don't know if you can do much lateral, once you are doing applied calculus and get into college level physics. You can slide with Enlgish and Shakespeare and head into languages, but once you get to a certain level in the sciences, you have to keep going.

How many times can you talk about Bernoulli's theorum. And you need resources to head into chemistry. I would not want to mix hydrocloric acid at home to do lab work.

There was another poster who talked about his son pushing the agenda and just getting to college at 12 and it sounds like this child is pushing his agenda to learn.

As much as we may want to choose his pace, perhaps sometimes you can't. And I think you have to be open to the fact that this child is just motivated to push to take those courses now. Not that you push him, but maybe he just needs it.

Ren

But it sounds like you're still thinking "biology, chemisty, physics," Wren, and my point is to suggest going beyond that narrow framework, while still attending to academic subjects.

That's what I mean about lateral thinking.

Instead of spending just a week on plate tectonics and a week on volcanoes or whatever, spend more time going in depth with sciences that get little attention like geology or astronomy--heck, discover some new asteroid or something!--or dig into soft sciences like psychology. Or what about something like archaeology that usually gets *no* attention in high school, but is a very interesting subject with lots of great resources available?

There's an awful lot of information in the world. It's hard for me to believe that you can run out by age 12, no matter how fast the kid can plow through it!

I do think there are kids who are driven to know that next level of something like math or science to the point that it makes sense to go to the college level to feed that drive. And if you have the ability to do that and the kid wants it, that sounds fine to me.

But I agree with Kriston that there are tons of things that are really cool that are never taught in typical K-12 or even most colleges. If you have a kid who is ahead in the typical academic subjects, then there is way more flexibility to explore those things. I know of a camp that teaches animal tracking and outdoor survival skills. I know of several tall ships programs that teach kids how to climb masts, rig sails, and generally become sailors. There are achaeology programs that let kids go on digs. In a couple years, we plan to send DS to Central America to stay with Spanish speaking friends where he will go to school and help with the family's small store. All of these programs allow kids to actually use some of their school knowledge, but put it in a context that makes it "real world" applicable and gets them connected with a broader range of other kids. For our family , it makes more sense to explore these things than to forge quickly ahead into college level material.

But I have a relative who graduated college at 18. He is brilliant, successful, and happy. For him, early college was clearly the right choice--he just had to know about physics and college was the best place for him to get the answers he craved. It all comes back to knowing your kids and knowing your options.

Wow! I love those ideas, acs! I'd love to get more info about those programs you mention! They are exactly the sorts of things I'd love to give to DS7 as options to delay early college for us. Would you PM me if you're not comfortable sharing the details publically? I'd be grateful.

DS7 is an outdoorsman and a natural tracker. His woodsman/hunter grandfather marveled at his ability to spot tracks that the "pro" didn't see. All those hours spent with "I Spy" books had some practical use, I guess. LOL! But DS7 be in heaven at the tracking/survival camp, I'm sure of it!

And just for the record, I don't oppose early college. I agree completely that it's the right choice for some kids. But I also got the impression that the OP felt like there was no other option but early college, though she wasn't 100% sold on it for a 12yo and perhaps hadn't considered other approaches to delay that inevitability a couple of years to make it more palatable. I know that the idea of my DS7 on campus full-time in 5 years makes me break out in hives, so I'm going to do everything in my power to not have to go there so soon, provided that "everything" still stimulates him intellectually.

Here are a couple that some of my friend's kids have done. I am sure they wouldn't mind the free advertsing!

http://www.wolfjourney.com/youthcamps/resindex.html

http://www.historicalseaport.org/web/education.html

Fantabulous! Thanks!

Corinna,

In the book Genius Denied (and several others, I just happen to have Genius Denied at my fingertips) they have a chapter entitled School Solutions: "I Do Not See Boredom Here", and a subheading called "Early College: I Didn't Miss a Thing". They mention a program for girls at Mary Baldwin College in Staunton, Virginia that looks interesting. (i.e. I would love to find something similar for boys!!)

They have an early college program for young girls (looks like age 12 or so) with the Program for the Exceptionally Gifted (PEG). PEG allows the girls to compact the four years of high school into a year or so, and then allows them to start taking college classes. The kids are given a lot of adult guidance and support and live in a dorm arrangement with other PEG kids. It says that the kids can still go to events and mixers with the high school students in the area as long as they return by curfew. Just something to keep in mind. They mention several other programs at universities, so it might be worth investigating.

I agree with the previous posts that there are tons of things that you can learn without packing the bags for college. Even in the hard sciences, you can explore fascinating topics like astrophysics and cosmology (no lab space required for big bang theories, string theories, or gravitational waves!), electronic circuit design, optics, nano-technology, quantum mechanics (wave/particle duality and Schroedinger's Cat), artificial intelligence, computer languages and programing, physical chemistry (electron shell theory), genetic mutations and DNA sequencing... just to name a few. A kid could go off on one of these tangents and be completely happy for months at a time. Even if your library doesn't have books on these topics, there are plenty of college kids willing to sell their books for next to nothing at the end of the semester when they are trying to move out. I would suggest looking on a bulletin board outside a large lecture hall, but today's kids are probably posting their used books electronically. Amazon has tons of these books too. I read a paperback book called In Search of Schroedinger's Cat when I was 18, and I could easily have read it at 14 or so. (all conceptual with no math, if I remember correctly) And most gifted kids love reading about these abstract concepts. They may sound intimidating, but if an average 18 or 19 year old can grasp them, then a gifted kid would have no trouble. Science is one of those topics that has endless avenues to explore and you can find the material presented on many different levels of understanding.

Sorry... I got a little carried away there. I do love science. But I'm sure there are equally entertaining options in other fields.

We may be in your shoes in a few years. We have an eight year old son now who will graduate-with no further grade skips- at 16. But he will probably run out of science classes long before then. Our current plan (HA! How many times will that change in the next 6-8 years!) is to let him start taking classes early at a local university while in high school... Just for fun if he wants... to explore different topics and help determine a major. Then he can transfer to a school of his choice later.

I want to come over and play at your house, ebeth. I'm a recovering English major and that all sounds fascinating!

I'd add genetics to the list. I attended a conference when I was in high school, and it almost made me switch majors. (Almost.)Fascinating developments happening every day there, and a science-loving kid could easily get lost in it.

Wow! I am loving this conversation. The reason we really think early college is because that is the "normal" progression when done with 12th grade. Also, like I mentioned before, DS is showing interest in taking some online courses (French!) that I feel would be good experience for him. And, yes, Biology has been interesting at home. So, in my search for opportunities as far as scholarships go, I came across the NMS and was put off by the "full time" requirement that they mentioned. We'll get it all figured out eventually. That's why the "plans" are flexible!

Corinna

acs,
Those programs look wonderful! Too far away for us though!

Corinna

ebeth - I'll come over and play as well! I'm sure one day we'll have a sterile hood in the basement for cell culture, a centrifuge, a -20C freezer for storing samples, etc. I should probably start finishing the basement to get ready!!!!

Hey, the more the merrier! And I was about to write an apology for my long science rant. Most people walk away quickly when you start babbling on about science and all the cool things you can get lost in. Well, quickly being a relative term, once the glazed expression goes away. I'm so very happy to have found this place!

Dazey: I think cell cultures and centrifuges sound pretty cool too. Where exactly do you get a cheap centrifuge, BTW? Enquiring minds want to know!

I am sure there are other programs that are just as cool scattered all around the country. These just happen to be two that I have reason to believe are reputable. I think I saw that the wolf camp actually arranges airport pick-up if your kid flies out by him/herself.

I started a camp discussion under "resources" hoping that other people might add more outside-the-academic-box learning ideas to my very short list.

There's the Early Entrance Program at the University of Washington...

http://depts.washington.edu/cscy/programs/earlyentrance/

I'm enjoying the conversation too. Learning does not have to happen in a formal setting for it to be useful or meaningful. My kids have learned far more in their own private pursuits than in any formal lessons I have given.

My comments about science and math were because the Davidson scholars profiled in an article were about 19/20 science and math oriented. It seemed a natural tangent.

And I agree you can read so many things, but I think lab work makes science so much more intereting. And many of the topics mentioned are really things you would take at a college so why not take them at the local school where they have facilities?

DH went to Chile during a HS year and learned Spanish (still speaks compared to moi who took French in Canada forever and it takes 2 weeks in France or Morocco to remember).

I think some of those camps sound wonderful but they are geared to the summer and then what? Pick a country to spend the year.

And a logistical question. If you do spend a few years like this, how do you apply for college re: transcripts?

Just debating post.

Ren

Well, I know that the tall ships take volunteers any time of the year (but I don't know at what age since I doubt this particular activity is in our DS's futute). My friend's kid went to the summer camp at maybe 15 or so, then did a 2 week volunteer stint, and then was hired on for the year after graduating HS. Colleges loved her experience and that she wasn't just like every other smart applicant with the same-old activities. I think most schools appreciate an applicant who has followed a passion that is outside of the mainstream. Many homeschool kids do their 2 weeks volunteering on the ship during the school year and some decide to stay on as paid crew if there is a good fit.

I know our local theater company has homeschool acting classes during the school year. There must be tons of these kinds of programs if you just know where to look. It is really the availability of these amazing opportunities that makes homeschooling appealing to me (rather than any problems with our PS). We are compromising by working toward a gap year in 8th grade...

There are plenty of sources to help homeschoolers create transcripts--websites, books, even college planning experts. We're not there yet, so I don't have a list to share. Maybe Lorel or someone else does? But it's not a big deal. It's just like compiling a resume from a varied work background. People do it all the time.

Nontraditional avenues of study are pretty common among homeschoolers, especially HG+ homeschoolers, and evidence indicates that colleges are becoming increasingly interested in kids who pursue their own passions with gusto, rather than simply following the typical school path at home. I mean, it makes sense. If you go out of your way to do MORE than other kids, and do it with creativity and passion, what school wouldn't want that? It shows a self-starter, someone who loves to learn, someone who can contribute something to the university community rather than merely filling a seat. The percentage of universities that have procedures on the books for admitting homeschoolers has skyrocketed in the past 10-20 years, which means they recognize the talent pool and want to grab some of it. I read an article that detailed the numbers, but I'm too lazy to look it up. If you doubt me or want to know more, I could dig for it.

Why not take those subjects at college? Well, if there were a local school that were a good fit for a 12yo, I might send my child there. But I'd be nervous about it. Wouldn't you? I mean, 12 is pretty young to be on campus full-time. And I got the sense that we were not discussing just picking up a class here or there at a neighborhood place, but sending the child *off* to college. That I'm pretty sure I wouldn't do unless it were a special program for youngsters like the one Cathy suggested. I'd rent lab space and hire an expert tutor before I'd place a 12yo in that sort of situation, I think.

That's just me, and I never like to judge the decisions of others. This job is hard enough without someone else telling us what a mess we're making of it. We're all doing our best and every kid is different. But I personally wouldn't feel comfortable with full-time college away from home for a 12yo without some sorts of protections in place.

I agree Kriston. We are not comfortable sending him off to college full time even though we live <10 miles from a major university campus. I also am nervous about sending him to some of these 3+ week long summer camps on campuses around the country. 1 - we can't afford the program/airfare and 2 - we are not in the habit of sending our kids off with people we don't know. I guess what I'm hoping for is to have him apply for these gifted programs that give him access to scholarships etc and then have him admitted to the local university to begin studies - but not full time. Some online courses and maybe 1 on campus class. Something like that. He most likely will not make it through college in 4 years because he wouldn't be full time. I guess I lean toward the normal progression from high school to college because, like Ren mentioned, the gap in studies makes me nervous.

I hear you. But if I may continue to butt in whether wanted or not ( )...I'd recommend that you at least look into other options.

You may well decide not to take them. That's certainly a valid choice. But I don't think you have to be scared to follow something other than the traditional progression. The big deal about going "off-road", I think, is that it's harder on you because you have to be more creative, more free-thinking about what to do next. You have to hunt down opportunities, even inventing opportunities that have never existed by networking with people, and it's a lot of hard work. It's definitely easier to follow the usual path, where you know what comes next. But given the givens, I think it might be more beneficial to your child--not to mention your own peace of mind!--to do things a little differently.

Don't get me wrong. I don't mean to discourage you from giving him college-level work. Not at all! Online courses are a great solution. And even one or two on-campus classes that you drive him to seems like the sort of thing that wouldn't send me into hysterics if I were in your shoes. But that still leaves education time to fill, you know?

It might be a good time to explore career options. HG+ kids often have trouble figuring out what to be when they grow up because they have so many options. Unlike kids in traditional schools, he's got the time and the freedom to intern or job-shadow. Why not take advantage? And that sort of experience looks AMAZING on a transcript! Seriously, colleges go nuts for that sort of thing!

I promise to shut up if I'm annoying you. But I really think you can slow things down without slowing HIM down, if that makes any sense, while still giving him a transcript of which to be very, very proud. I'd suggest that you at least look into it.

There are books all about assembling transcripts for homeschoolers.
Cafi Cohen has written several on homeschooling teens and creating homebrewed transcripts. One of her kids was accepted at multiple service academies, and ended up going to the Air Force academy. He'd done a lot with the Civil Air Patrol and a personal fitness program, as well as the usual academic courses.

I spoke to a Yale admissions officer a few months ago, in preparation for a talk I was giving. He said that they were very happy with the way homeschoolers fit in there, and that a higher percentage of homeschoolers were admitted than traditional students. He was very enthusiastic about what homeschoolers could bring to thee table, though he did say that the expectation is that they will have made good use of their freedom to pursue out of the box endeavors.

My kids have done some work with mentors, and I really can't say enough for caring adults who take time to share their expertise. Mentoring is one way for kids to go deep into a subject, without a lot of cost and the awkwardness of being 8 or 10 years younger than most other students in a college classroom. Artemis had an email relationship with an entomologist when she was about five. Hector has worked with two different geologists and now has a math mentor.

I just read a report that talked about ACT and SAT correlations with college readiness, and apparently my son would have been ready several years ago, according to the charts. But I don't think he would have enjoyed the experience at eight, and I am not convinced that his intellectual capacity should ever overrule his social and emotional needs. I think we've done the right thing by him, by waiting, and he's growing into a confident and well adjusted young man. Perhaps he could have succeeded in college at eight, but FOR HIM, it looks like twelve is going to be the right time to start. And it will certainly not be full time...

Thanks, Lorel. I knew you'd know oh so much more about this than I would!

I think you make an excellent point about colleges expecting homeschooled HG+ kids to make use of their "extra" time. I would think that would be true. It's hard to think that they would expect kids as young as 12 to be on the same path as a student of 18 at the same point in the educational cycle. You've got 6 years on the average college student--why wouldn't you do something unusual? It seems pretty logical. Unavoidable, even.

It's all about balance, isn't it.

Thanks for all the info. I know they profiled a girl in the news that graduated from Stoney brook at 14. But it was the local school. She lived at home and that is what I was talking about, just taking courses with no end in mind. But in these cases, many of them just graduate. I am just posting the practical side from someone who is really removed with a 3 year old.

And I totally get what you said Kriston about colleges wanting the unusual, self starter. Bill Gates did donate a huge amount of money to Harvard, despite not graduating. Tangent...

But the kind of kid that takes off early, like that kid who wants to get the record for sailing around the world at 16, is homeschooled, is doing his studies on computer while sailing. If DD told me she was sailing around the world at 16, I would lock her in a room.

Ren

Lorel - how did you find these mentors?

I am getting bogged down by the dreaded Box (I refer to the traditional, one-size-fits-all Box of public education). I want to think creatively, but am having trouble with high school graduation requirements idiocy. Do those of you whose kids enroll in college courses forego a high school diploma? Do you get permission from the high school to take the courses if you're trying to get dual credit? Or are you blowing off high school bureaucrats entirely and just enroll in what your kid wants regardless of how many credits they need, blah, blah, blah?

I certainly know of people who have gone on to college without a high school diploma. I think my niece is planning this by just getting her associated degree instead, but I don't really know the details.

Dazed-

I found contact information on geology profs at local colleges and inquired for my son. I have heard that it is better for the child to initiate contact, but I felt more comfortable doing the introductory part for him. A friend here PMed me with a suggestion when I said I wished for DS to have a math mentor. She told me to look at private schools. It was only when I started browsing a local boarding school's web site that I realized that I had met one of the math teachers before- she had homeschooled her son for a period several years ago! So I contacted her, and ds just met with her for the first time.

Here's an article on the subject: http://www.bellaonline.com/articles/art42217.asp


Homeschooling parents can award their own high school diplomas. I purchased a gorgeous one online for my son, and it doesn't matter to any of the schools he applied to that it wasn't accredited. Some parents DO get scared at not having an "official" diploma, and they may pay hundreds or thousands to an umbrella school in order to have that stamp of approval. They just feel safer that way. I didn't feel it was that important.

http://www.homeschooldiploma.com/

The problem I see with matriculating at a 2 year school and actually getting a degree is that you lower your chances of getting into a prestigious four year school. Colleges accept far fewer transfer students than freshman, and with the current application situation, I feel it is better to rack up credits without matriculating. If you are not looking at very competitive schools, that's fine, but if you are, then in a bizarre twist, accomplishing more gets you in trouble! Schools like MIT regularly admit kids with MANY college credits, as long as they never entered a degree program.

Just to confuse you and make this reply even longer, here's MIT data points on admission. Unfortunately, I couldn't find any stats on transfers, but I have seen them before and they were very low numbers. http://www.mitadmissions.org/topics/apply/admissions_statistics/index.shtml

My 11 yo son scored in the second tier on their ACT chart for incoming freshman.

Thanks Lorel!

Lorel,

Thank you for explanations. I feel like a dog chasing his tail with the high school credits/diploma/early entrance stuff.

If a child has done original research prior to admissions to a top tier school ( MIT, Caltech, Harvey Mudd ) then this places them above their peers.

Most kids are not capable of devoting time every day to a project that will span years.

Just something to keep in mind for HS kids - they do have the time to do this.

I have no idea, again debating post, but I am wondering about the increasing competitiveness to get into these schools, especially the technical ones, MIT, Caltech. I heard so many Chinese students are applying it is getting harder to get noticed. They have advanced math etc.

There was a child profiled in the news this year, came from Poland at 9, didn't know English, got into every school he applied, from Harvard to Stanford. Only school who turned him down was MIT, though I am not sure why he applied he wanted political science.

The scrapper that can prove himself/herself, who is willing to work for success. That is a hard profile to show.

My point, if there is one, is the child that can prove he/she is hungry to make something of themselves. I think that is the most attractive quality to a school now. They want the next Bill Gates who donates 150 million every few years. It pays for the upkeep and academic staff to keep being a high profile school.

Ren