Hi,

I have an 8 year old daughter in 3rd grade who I wish to have IQ tested to determine if she is gifted or not.

I know that she is bright and suspect she may be gifted, I am finally ready to move forward and have her IQ tested. I went to Hoagies list and found two psychologists in my area and called them both.

One said that she would administer the WISC 4 test and it would take an hour and a half, she said she would meet with me alone for a 2nd consultation and go over all of the information and answer any questions I have for as long as it takes. This would cost $500.

The 2nd person said he would like to administer both the WISC 4 test and an Achievement Test. He seemed to place more emphasis on the achievement test even though I told him that I was more concerned about the intelligence testing. My daughter has taken the NWEA and scores in the highest percentiles 98/99, so I feel the achievement test would be redundant. What I don't know is her actual IQ score and areas of strength/weakness, which is why I wish to have the focus on the IQ test. He would charge $400 ($800 total) for each test but he does not do the follow up consultation, just a written report.

So, my gut is telling me to go with the first psychologist but I would like to know from experienced people if I would be doing any sort of disservice by not having the Achievement Testing done.

Any thoughts or opinions? Thanks!

I don't know but I'm bumping this up so maybe others will chime in. Welcome!

How about checking in with her school and school district? Many schools have gifted testing usually starts at 2nd grade.

And check local university/college. They may have PhD students who may do the complete testing for around $200.

Is this for admission to a gifted program? Something else? The testing needs to fit the need.

The advantage to doing paired IQ and achievement testing is that it can point out areas where performance is out of sync with ability.

Personally, I wouldn't test just to see where my kid is. It's expensive, time consuming, and can be quite stressful to the child. Testing is a means to an end.

I'd say go with the first option. If the second one was pushing achievement test over your concerns, then how well is he really listening? Since it seems you are mostly curious, then the first option also gives you a chance to discuss the results and understand them better.

Personally, I'd go with option 1. The follow-up visit might easily be worth the extra $100, and you have other options for achievement testing (and plenty of them that offer little to no follow-up).
-S.F.

If your child goes to public school in the US, you are likely entitled to the school testing her through one of their diagnosticians. Unless you think she is twice exceptional where the testing may need the nuanced experience of a private professional, I'd talk to the special ed director at your school and request the screening. If they push back, you can submit a request in writing. This starts a legal ticking clock where they have to respond to your request within a specific time frame.

We have used both school and private testing, and there are advantages and disadvantages to both. So I'd start out with free and then work from there depending on the results.

Thank you all for the warm welcome and the responses, truly appreciate it.

To answer some questions: My daughter goes to a public school in MI. We are a state with no gifted legislation or funding. Sadly, the elementary school won't even acknowledge that she is accelerated and from talking to other parents in our district, I have found out that there are no accelerated programs until high school.

I do not think my daughter has any LD (although I read a book that said many gifted children go undiagnosed with LD because they overcompensate academically, so I may be wrong). She seems to have some mild anxiety but nothing that interferes with the quality of her daily life, so we just deal with it as it arises and I don't make a big deal out of it.

The reason I am seeking testing may be selfish, so please don't judge, but I have her best interest at heart.

I feel like since she was born she has accomplished and surpassed milestones but I could never tell anyone or talk about them. I soon began to realize that the things that she did were not age appropriate and it made my peers uncomfortable, even though I was not bragging (just trying to join in on mom conversations type things). We did minimal preschool (for socialization purposes really) and when I put her in Kindergarten she quickly became labeled the teacher helper (by the teacher) and the teacher sat her with the slower students because the teacher said she could use my daughter's help. Thankfully Kindergarten was half day and I was able to enrich her at home. Her 1st/2nd grade teacher recognized that she was bored and gave her enrichment work at school to do, which I appreciated. Her 3rd grade teacher loves her and works well with her, but when I suggested that the curriculum was not challenging enough for her at conferences, I met with some resistance. We still do enrichment at home.

I would like to have her IQ determined so that I can find out once and for all if she is genuinely gifted or just a bright child. If she is a bright child, I can relax a little bit and just continue to nurture her strengths and support her academically as she achieves.

If she is genuinely gifted, I will at least have some evidence to present to the teacher/principal to try to advocate for a more challenging curriculum for her.

I will continue to enrich her curriculum at home, however, my main concern is that it won't be long before I am going to be outwitted by her and unable to teach her the level that she is going to be requiring.

Additionally, if she is genuinely gifted I would like to be able to review my education options for her and see if perhaps a private school might be a better fit.

And my last reason for wanting her tested is because I just want to know if this feeling of being overwhelmed and being crazy and not getting any support or encouragement for having a smart kid is valid or not. I just feel like I have no support system in place and no one to talk to. I tell my daughter she is smart but not to tell anyone how smart she is (sadly because the people around us do not support the gifted and of course they label me as *that parent*, even though I am not that parent).

I just want to advocate for my daughter if she is gifted or just let her be a very bright child, if she is not.

I am OK with whatever these tests results show, I think the results are going to bring me internal peace, it is the answer I need so I can move forward.

I think I am going to go with option 1. My reasoning is (as Zen Scanner mentioned) I am mostly curious and I agree that the conference will be nice to discuss things. I bet there are aspects of the results that I won't even be aware of and the psychologist can help clue me in.

I also agree that option 2 psychologist wasn't really listening to my needs and since my daughter has to take the NWEA every fall and spring in her public school, the Achievement portion would be extra testing time and stress that is redundant, IMHO.

I posted to be sure that this extra Achievement test would not be a component that I would regret not having done in hindsight and I think based on your replies that the IQ testing should be sufficient for what I am looking for.

Thanks again for the support!! I think I will wait until Feb to have her tested and will definitely look into college students as a less expensive option.

We used one of our state's top colleges to test our DD. We were very pleased with how much time they spent with her and the time they spent with us explaining what everything meant and answering our questions. Now that I know how much testing can cost, what we paid was very reasonable. I also agree with you that just not knowing what you are dealing with...is she really smart or truly gifted...is frustrating and once you find out it is a relief! If you do find out she is gifted a lot of things will start to make sense, however it also opens a whole new can of worms! I know I've said this before in other posts, but having DD tested was the absolute best thing we could have done because we needed answers and through the testing we got them. I'm so glad you found this forum! It is a great place to get information and find others who know exactly what you are talking about. Good Luck!

If you are in the Detroit area, Roeper School has a list of testers who evaluate gifted kids. If you download an application from their website it lists their names and locations. I think your price quotes are high for Michigan. There are some really active parent groups there, including Gifted in Michigan and Mensa Kids. If you are near FH, the Stepping Stones School for the Gifted might be able to recommend someone.

If you are on the West side of the state, it seems like there is a pretty active organization called the GT Resource Network. It is a group of parents and kids that get together once a month. They coordinate some advocacy, enrichment activities, and just social things. I bet they could recommend a tester. Or you could take a train to Chicago for testing at Northwestern CTD.

You should never have to feel like you have to justify reason for wanting to have her tested to anyone. For us it was the best thing we could have done as well. In our situation it was never a question weather he was gifted, but rather to what degree. I was so confused trying to understand my son. After finding out he was PG, it all made so much more sense and I feel I relate to him so much better. Being in the dark was hard.

It is not about a "number", it is about knowing where your kid is on the spectrum to be able to support his needs. Not just academic, but most importantly, his emotional needs. Good luck!

Your daughter seems bored and is ready for more. The school's achievement testing appears to back it up. Honestly, I'd start from there. Speak to the teacher again, and move up from there if you meet more resistance. If the school can't meet her needs and you start thinking about private school, then do so. You have evidence of achievement. I would start there -- IQ aside, the test scores should make it clear that she should be able to handle more and that grade-level instruction is not well suited to her needs.

I am in the metro Detroit area. The two psychologists I contacted were names from the Stepping Stones website. Option #1 said she used to work for Roeper and still does a lot of testing for Roeper. I will call Roeper directly, though and see if they provide testing for less money, because that certainly would be nice.

Geofizz, I am beating a dead horse at her school. I took in her NWEA results to the conference. It took me 4 years to come to the conclusion that we are on our own in the public school system. That is where I am at today, just starting this journey on my own. I thought that when she got to 3rd grade they would start acknowledging the huge achievement gap between her and the other kids within our district, but they seem to only want to use the NWEA results to identify the children who are falling behind. That is fine, I just need to figure out where my daughter really stands as far as giftedness so that I can move forward on her behalf, even if that means switching to a private school that acknowledges the gifted kids. I figure if I can get her giftedness level determined (or lack of giftedness if it ends up being that way) then I can combine the IQ results and the NWEA scores and approach a private school with more eggs in my basket.

If you have the money to spare, I don't see anything wrong with getting an IQ test. GT and bright kids seem to enjoy it, although you did mention something about anxiety. If the anxiety comes with testing, then that might be something to consider. I would recommend telling her that you are going to do some tests to see how her brain works and how she thinks.

I can relate to several of your comments. I remember before I found this discussion board, I had stopped talking about my kiddo's achievements to other parents. It is very isolating to not have anyone to talk with, and I hope you feel comfortable sharing anything you want here. Many of us probably share your experiences.

Also, I remember wondering what in the world I was doing testing my then-4yo, but DH and I felt like we didn't want him to have the same kind of school experience we had when we were kids, and DS seemed even more advanced than we were. It turned out that we have been able to use the scores and the report to advocate for our DS and help us decide what type of school situation would be best for him. (By the way, I recommend option 1 with the report/meeting).

But as others have said, even without an IQ test, I think it is a good idea to use what you have -- the MAP scores and other info showing what your DD can do -- to try to advocate for more challenging materials. Since the teacher is not receptive, it may be good to try to gather samples from advanced stuff your DD does at home to show what she is capable of. If you give specific examples of areas where you think your DD needs more on another thread, folks here can probably give some helpful suggestions (sometimes just sending in different worksheets is a quick and easy fix).

ETA: posted this before seeing your response above -- if your school is completely nonresponsive, then my suggestions re: advocacy may not help....

I think you already know what you need to know... your daughter is significantly ahead of her age-peers, and she's not learning anything in school. Since the state has no requirements to provide learning opportunities to gifted kids, and since it appears your local district has not volunteered to provide them anyway, it's pretty clear at this point that some solution that does not include public school is required. Whether she's gifted or "just bright" (not sure that's even a useful distinction), you already know that something has to change.

I do think testing first, and inquiring with private schools later, is a bit of putting the cart before the horse, for the simple reason that they may have totally different requirements. For example, you don't feel like you need achievement testing, but the school of your dreams might... in which case, you're going back to option 2, and spending even more time and money.

I'm not saying don't test... I'm just saying it may be worth your while to explore your educational options further before deciding how to test.

Now that MON mentions it, I forgot to mention the price. We paid over $1000 for testing and a report, and it was worth every penny. You have some great deals to consider.

A PTC is the wrong place to talk about something like this. The teacher has an agenda to get through and there's not enough time to consider. Now is a good time of year -- classrooms are rolling along and the teacher isn't thinking about report cards. Make an appointment to talk. Read up around here about good ways to run this conversation. I have had good luck with questions like "what are your goals for DD this year?" "What is happening in the classroom so that DD makes a year's worth of progress?"

If the conversation comes up bupkiss, then move up to the principal. Ask for a meeting and lay out the test scores, report cards, and frustration with getting an appropriate education for your child. If the right solution is a grade skip or a subject acceleration, then more testing might be necessary, but the school should do it. Either way, and acceleration will require the principal's involvement.

Part of the reason I'm advocating against getting the IQ test is that I'm a little concerned about your approach in using whether or not she's actually above some IQ level to advocate for her needs. She's got needs and I think they are clear to you and they clearly show on the test results.

I agree wholeheartedly with this. If you haven't gone beyond a parent-teacher conference so far with advocacy. Teachers have a certain amount of information they plan to discuss, and there is no time for additional discussion. I do not remember your story of who you've spoken with so far.

Thank you for all of the support and feedback,it has given me a lot to consider and I appreciate the input. I can relate to the stories shared and that is reassuring.

Regarding PTC not being the time or place, I agree. I have also met with the teachers outside of PTC and the response does not vary. I did speak to the principal once (awhile ago) and got much the same response. I do need to speak to the principal again but I want to make sure that I have all of my information in hand. They seem to not take parent observation as reputable authority and when they look at her NWEA score they tell me she is smart and does well, but remind me it is just an achievement score and not an indicator of actual intelligence.

I am moving forward with the testing. It is the first time I feel really confident in a decision that I am making regarding her education. Intuitively I know that this step is necessary right now. I am not worried about her taking the actual test as she loves taking the tests at school (she thinks they are fun) and only has anxiety afterwards (over how she thinks she did on them) which I reassure her that I am happy as long as she gave it her best effort.

The curriculum at her school is very competitive to other schools I have researched, but there does not seem to be room for exception. I would like to be able to explore all of my options and find out what is available for her and I guess I simply feel I can't honestly do this without figuring out where she falls on the spectrum first.

As far as what she is actually capable of doing right now, it is difficult for me to say since she is locked into the same curriculum as every other 3rd grader in her school. Her reading level is high, she can read long chapter books (like Harry Potter) and comprehend them. They are currently learning multiplication/division in class and she can do her math facts quickly and accurately. She loves geometry and measurements. We are working on fractions at home, as well as reviewing multiplication/division. She loves story problems/logic problems. I purchased a math workbook that is 3rd grade math for the gifted student and the night I first gave it to her she couldn't stop working on it, she did 20 pages in one night and loved it. Her writing and language usage is very good (probably her strong point). I have read through a lot of the posts on this board and bookmarked many helpful resource pages to worksheets or videos or math blogs. She enjoys extra stuff like that and it helps fulfill a math requirement for school (doing extra math at home).

Kelly,

From my experience with schools, most of them don't really understand or acknowledge IQ scores. They certainly don't understand when a child is several standard deviations beyond the 100 IQ mean. They seem to mostly look at achievement tests. I'm not familiar with the NWEA, so I don't know if it gives beyond grade level testing, which is what the second psychologist is recommending. There are different kinds of achievement test. Some stay within grade level (but will report higher grade level scores, such as "If a 5th grader took a 2nd grade test, he would get this score), and some truly go beyond grade level. It is possible that your school doesn't understand this difference either.

The most effective way of communicating my son's needs with his school was to have his teacher give him the end of year assessments or tests for each subject when he was in second grade, around the beginning of October. If you can show that your child has nothing new to learn in that particular grade, then you have a case for the school to take action. Each child deserves the right to be appropriately challenged in school.

Please note that they will try to insist that your child must get a 100% on every test to show mastery. This is incorrect. Most school require about an 80% on end of year tests to show mastery of the material. If you child passes this level, you can then ask for the teacher to administer the end of year tests for the next grade up. That should give them an idea about the appropriate placing of your child in their school with their curriculum. Plus, it is free!

But the only reason to start pushing along this path is if you really want the school to take action. Usually parents will request subject acceleration or a full grade acceleration if they show that their child is not fully challenged at school. The best thing about this is that it does not require any form of gifted funding at your school. If your school is willing, they can give your child an appropriate education by just allowing her to be in the appropriate grade, even if it is just for a single subject like math or reading. It requires no extra work or money on their part. But that is a pretty big IF.

This is just one more perspective on a very difficult problem that has many different solutions. I hope this helps?
Ebeth

Thank you for sharing all of this, it is really really helpful insight.

I believe that the NWEA goes beyond grade level. As I understand it, it is a computerized test where the questions become more difficult as the student gets them correct (and easier if they miss questions) and after the student misses a certain # of questions the test ends. Therefore, each individual student could potentially be taking a unique test according to their proficiency in specific areas (Math, Language Usage, Reading, Science, Concepts and Processes).

The assessment testing is a great idea, although I thought that the NWEA was supposed to help in that regard, maybe I misunderstand the proper usage of this test.

I an uncertain the exact direction I would like to take with whatever the test results show, which is why I also think having the hour long consultation after the testing would be beneficial (to help me sort out my options). It just seems like I am unable to persue any direction without evidence to support my decision.

I really like your suggestions and appreciate your input, it is very helpful.

I believe you are discussing the NWEA MAP test, which is in fact a computerized, grade-blind achievement test. The question bank for the MAP is the same for at least K-5, and possibly K-12. Look for the grade level where your child's score corresponds to the 90th percentile or more; remember that the average 3rd grader may not have fully mastered the 3rd grade curriculum. I will go look for the data table link now. You need to go far far down the document, like to page 50, and look at one of the appendices.

I agree with geofizz on this. I appreciate having the IQ data for my children, and it's been useful in dealing with 2e issues, and having as data when a specific program needs an ability score above a certain number for admission... but that's really the extent of how it's been meaningful or useful in a real sense.

My feeling is that first and foremost you follow the needs of your child - what you see by observing them, knowing them, listening to them. Your dd has very high achievement scores, so regardless of her IQ, if she's asking for more challenge, advocate for more challenge.

On the flip side, if you were to find out through the testing that she's off-the-charts sky-high in IQ, it's also not going to change fundamentally who the child is that you've been raising so far - if she's motivated, she's motivated. If she's passionate about science, she'll still be passionate about science. If she's intense, she's intense. If she's motivated by a great empathy, she'll still be motivated by the same things. I think most of us parents of high IQ kids know in our gut feelings that our kids are "out there" somewhere and we see whatever their high IQ needs might be (more challenge, more structure, freedom to create, whatever) with or without an IQ number. So I'm not sure I understand why a test is needed to know whether or not you need to do more... does that make sense?

Please know I'm not saying don't test! But fwiw, I would first really think through what your dd needs from school and what your school options are locally then be sure the testing you're paying for is the testing you really need for advocating.

Also on the achievement tests - I would think the schools would be more interested in NWEA type tests than WJ-III achievement tests when you advocate. That's been our experience - the WJ-III achievement tests are very specific, short, and not tied or directly mappable to a wide swath of school district curriculum.

Good luck! It's very frustrating to want more for our kids and not have many options available.

polarbear

A quick, glossy brochure. Look for you score to be in the top or second row, then see what grade that is:
http://www.nwea.org/sites/www.nwea.org/files/resources/NWEA_Comparative_Data.pdf

The full description of the MAP score norming data. Look at the percentiles by grade in appendix B, starting on page 51:
http://www.nwea.org/sites/www.nwea.org/files/resources/NWEA_2011_RIT_Scale_Norms.pdf

Polarbear, thank you for sharing all of that with me, I appreciate the insight.

Master of None, that is exactly how I feel (or rather how my brain is programmed). I think it is going to help me to better help her to know for sure.

ljoy, thank you so much for the NWEA information, I have been looking high & low for current data and could not find any. Appreciate it!!

We would not have "seen" our HG+ child for what she is. There were lots of reasons why that aren't really relevant here but if we had not had her off to the OT to check for problems like those we overlooked in her older sister, and then had him send us to a psychologist we very possibly would not have found for much longer, if ever. Part of that is that she's 2e (mildly compared to her older sister but still 2e) and partly it's that so far she's not that academically driven, she'd rather navel gaze and dress up. BUT even when not that academically driven she's still infinitely better off grade skipped than she was in her age appropriate class and she'll likely need another before too long. Given how spectacularly we and her teachers were missing what was in front of us I really don't know that she ever would have been "seen" without the IQ testing.

I would echo MumOfThree's statement as our summary of the value of an IQ test for our family: "We would not have 'seen' our HG+ child for what she is."

In our case, it was a crisis during DD9's 2nd grade year. She was becoming sick with anxiety and stomach aches but nobody could figure out why. At that time we were not "gifted aware" beyond a mild notion that she was smarter than average.

What convinced me to test her was finding out her reading scores were many grades higher. That was news to us, given that DD never read material above grade level. In that sense it was the reading test that led to the IQ test, which eventually opened my eyes to the scope and depth of gifted issues.

I don't disagree with this at all, but it appeared that part of the reason the OP was considering testing was to *not* push for more challenge etc if the IQ # came in lower than whatever magical # is going to be considered "gifted" vs "bright child".. and yet the OP has a child who is achieving at a very high level. I would push for more challenge a high-achieving child no matter what the IQ score came in at.

To the OP, I apologize if I misunderstood your full intent in testing. I simply have seen in real life that children who are highly motivated and high achievers aren't always necessarily the highest-IQ kids, so my perspective was more cautionary in terms of what if the IQ # doesn't come out exceptionally high. You will still have a high-achieving child who will undoubtedly benefit from your advocacy and more challenge. And if $ are an issue, we have truly found that achievement testing almost always carries more weight (where we are, in our experience) when advocating for more challenge at school.

polarbear

No need to apologize, I actually appreciate you advocating for my DD Seriously, nice to see someone cares about her other then me.

Please know that I will continue to advocate for her if she does not test as gifted. I just need to *know* how best to help her myself by figuring out what I am actually dealing with. I am tired of guessing and being talked down to by teachers and administrators. I have no "leg" to stand on right now. I am certain that even if she does not test gifted she will be higher intelligence then normal and I feel that even having that evidence will help me push for her further.

She is in good hands and I will be taking care of all of her academic needs accordingly. I just need to find out for certain what I am working with so I can lay out my options and proceed from there.

Flailing around like I am currently doing is not working very well for me.

For me, I was very confused because I have a son who was/is incredibly achievement driven. I wasn't sure if his, "way out there" achievements, was just because of him being so driven, OR, if there were more to it than that. Meaning that I might have a kid with an extremely high IQ. The latter turned out to be true.

Before testing, I would talk myself into that it was all just because of his drive. Something inside told me that was not true. I kind of knew the results were going to be high, but I was in constant denial. So finding out made me have to see him for who he is and work with that.

Kelly, here's my 2 cents - follow your gut instincts. I could not agree more with MasterOfNone! We struggled throughout 1st grade and most of 2nd as to whether we should test our ds (now 8). We initially thought we did not want him "labeled," as we were not seeking special funding, he attends a private school and there seemed to be no real purpose. Last year in 2nd grade, his teacher could not understand why our son would not sit quietly in the "high-reading group" and focus on a Flat Stanley book he had read to himself in kinder. And that is just one of many, many incidents. Finally, like you, we had to do something. Following the advice we received from a couple well-regarded outside educators, we decided to IQ test him and much to our surprise, we learned he is literally off the charts in his language skills. Long story short - he's now a DYS and we all have a much better understanding of what our little guy is all about. While his school has a "fixed" curriculum, they understand him a little better, although their curriculum does not really accommodate his learning style.

The IQ test measures the child's learning ability - what the child is capable of achieving. Our tester helped us understand how our child thinks and learns best. And it's amazing how much better we understand our son now that we have this information. And it's equally amazing how ill-equipped teachers are about giftedness. Many teachers think gifted kids just need "harder" work, but that's not necessarily the case. It's more about how these kinds of kids think about things, how deep they go into a subject or issue with their endless penetrating questions.

Our child's teachers don't have time to teach to this kind of child. They can't answer his questions or think about his ideas, and we understand why they can't do what is better for our child. We're now looking at schools that teach to gifted kids - schools that require an IQ test for admission. They focus on the child's ability, not what they learned so far. The bottom line - these kids are different and consequently, their needs are different. Based on the past few years, it's become clear that we need to find a school where our child fits in, and we need to quit trying to make the school fit our child. I don't think any one school is perfect, but just understanding the issues is a huge step toward giving these special kiddos what they need.

Thank you so much for sharing your experiences. I can relate to a lot of what many of you are sharing.

SwimMom, I feel like you and I share the same feelings/issues on this matter. I really just want to fully understand what I am working with so I can make a game plan and figure out what is best for my daughter.

And if I need help, I need to be able to figure out who it is that can help me.

Thanks for the reassurance. I am waiting until February because Emily (my dd) is getting braces on 12/27 and I want to give her a good solid month to get past the trauma (LOL) and get used to them so she isn't distracted or preoccupied for the test.

The tester fully agreed when I discussed waiting until February.

So hopefully in February I will have some information that will help me better understand and advocate for my daughter.