Here is my original thread for background: http://giftedissues.davidsongifted....s_to_get_test_results_fo.html#Post131799

We FINALLY got results today for my DS (6.5 yrs) after having to wait for the university's summer break to end.

Overall, the results show that my son is HG/EG but the scores on his WISC-IV were so scattered that they couldn't even give us a meaningful FSIQ. They only calculated one composite score and the rest were "not interpretable". They did give a GAI but said it was not very meaningful.

Now on the WJ-III, the results were great except for some of the subtests that involved processing speed. The results here were more like we expected to see on the WISC-IV.

Here are the results (please bear with me!)

WISC-IV

Similarities 13
Vocabulary 17
Comprehension 11
VCI = Not interpretable

Block Design 15
Picture concepts 10
Matrix reasoning 19
PRI = Not interpretable

Digit span 12
Letter-number sequencing 16
WMI = 123

Coding 6 (what? REALLY??)
Symbol search 11
PSI = Not interpretable

FSIQ = Not interpretable
GAI = 129 (obviously not terribly accurate!)


WJ-III Acheivement (Clusters)

Oral language 121
Broad reading 136
Broad math 152
Broad written language 138
Math calculation 150
Written expression 127
Academic skills 150
Academic fluency 133
Academic applications 140
TOTAL ACHIEVEMENT = 143

(I have subtest scores too if that helps - I can post them if interested)


Soooo......they basically told me that the issues we have with DS not following directions, leaving tasks unfinished, trouble with switching tasks, inattention, and impulsiveness could be caused by ADHD or could be related to his giftedness. They recommended making accommodations for these issues in school and then get reevaluated in a couple of years.

He did the computer test for ADHD (CPT-2) and did worse as time went on (slower, less accurate). He also didn't handle long pauses in activity when there was nothing to do (like when the tester was writing down his responses on the Roberts-2 test).

Since he did OK with the WMI, it may be that he can hold his attention for awhile (which is what we observe all the time with him when he gets interested in something). I don't feel like this is such a HUGE issue that it impacts him severely but I'm sure there could be some improvement which would make things easier for him.

So I guess I am wondering - how big a deal is the slow processing speed? I mean that score on the coding test put him in the 9th percentile. That does not sound good to me. But I feel like overall he gets along pretty well and he doesn't seem to have attention problems all the time (like I think ADHD kids tend to have but I don't know really know...)

I'm thinking of applying to YS but only that one Broad Math score qualifies him out of all of those scores. I think I can come up with a portfolio. Hopefully that will be enough?

Thanks for reading and any advice anyone can offer would be awesome.

Welcome to the land of Twice Exceptional.

Scatter is often an indicator of a learning disability, so I'm wondering if they suggested follow-up testing or any types of therapies beyond the accommodations they recommended?

Be glad you had testers who recognized the significance of the scatter and didn't try to provide results where they couldn't. Our neuropsych did, and now we're having to go through getting a second opinion because his assessments were so blatantly inaccurate.

The processing speed might improve over time, and your kiddo will likely develop work-arounds as time progresses.

Let us know how the school responds to requesting accommodations!

As I've said elsewhere on this board, we've not applied to DYS for either of my girls so I am no expert, but my gut feel would be that the scores you have won't qualify. I understand the frustration of wildly varying scores as we've seen stuff like that with both of my kids but I think that they are looking more for kids who have those 99.9 on an entire subtest not just pieces of subtests.

I've always been up the air as to how to define kids like that. I have one who, despite 99.9th GAI and close VCI scores, over time I've come to realize is probably more HG than EG or PG. With scores in the range you've got, I'd either think MG with some significant asynchronicity or possibly HG or more with a 2e issue.

FWIW, I don't think that the publisher of the WISC supports stating the indices are not interpretable due to scatter although I agree that the numbers are suspect. We got VCI and PRI scores for both of my girls (even from places like the GDC) despite scores that ranged from 8-19++ within one index (PRI for one of them). I'd want to know what those numbers are even if they aren't as meaningful.

eta: Since I see that I cross posted with the above poster. My one with the 8-19++ PRI scores has, over time, really shown herself not to be a 2e kid. She's a recent 14 y/o 10th grader (grade skipped) and, although her processing speed does continue to be a weaker area for her (block design was her 8 and she had much lower processing speed than the other indices), she's a very good student who is keeping up with kids who are 1-2 yrs older than she in AP and other accelerated courses. I define her as deep not fast and anxiety as well as a graduate student tester who was less experienced probably impacted her more than a 2e issue at seven. My other one, OTOH, has clearly come out as 2e over time. Point being, I wouldn't assume that it has to be 2e, just that it could be.

I am reluctant to dive into him being 2E just yet - the tester was a graduate student and they don't specialize in gifted kids at this university. They only recommended being reevaluated in 2 years and in the meantime, make sure to involve him in more social activities outside of school (I really want to find more gifted kids but I'm not sure where to find them...) or other academic activities outside of school.

They made some recommendations like having him use his finger to read so he stays focused (but I haven't really noticed him having a problem focusing while reading???) or using a "window overlay" to block out other stimuli while working on a visual tasks.

They also said he needs a daily schedule with an organized school routine (they do this in his elementary Montessori room - school just started last week).

I'm not sure if waiting two years to find out for sure if he has ADHD is good advice? I think we need to find someone who knows about these kids.

If we decided to try for YS, I wouldn't have used the WISC scores but unfortunately, both test results are presented in a single report so they would see them both anyway.

Edit: Is there somewhere online where I can calculate the composite scores myself? I'd like to know what they are anyway.

He sounds very similar to my DS8 when he was tested at 7.

From what I'm learning, 6.5 yrs can be too young to differential between ADHD and giftedness. My DS was diagnosed at 7 with having severe ADHD combined type by the psychologist (who is very competent in certain areas, but admitted herself that DS was difficult to test and that we should take the results with a grain of salt). Meanwhile our pediatrician was baffled by the ADHD diagnosis and insists that DS is very different from the countless ADHD kids she sees.

Anyway. I contacted SENG for advice. I was told that gifted kids often have prefrontal cortex developmental delays (that catch up later) that mimic ADHD and misdiagnoses are more common before the age of eight.

I wouldn't ignore the ADHD idea completely, but certainly take it with a grain of salt, and let some time pass for your DS to grow and develop.

Thanks for sharing that tidbit--interesting. Sheds some light on dd5. To the OP--this one is so hard. I don't really know how I could have been accurately diagnosed with ADHD as a kid until the work was at the right level. And you don't want to overdiagnose, but yes, an earlier diagnosis is helpful. It is hard.

These scores (and responding posts) are so interesting to me because your son's scores are VERY similar to my DS' scores. Interestingly, it sounds like both of our guys also have visual issues. I have come to believe my child is indeed "twice-excpetional" - his disabilities are benign congenial hypotonia (relatively mild- I'd say mild-moderate), vison disability (intermittent convergent strasbismus) and anxiety NOS diagnosis (very likely the result of a gifted mind trappped inside an inadequate body). I am hoping once he completes his vision therapy and has more occupational therapies his WISCs scores will be somewhat more accurate.

It is a hard road.... Getting accomodateions for both the diabilities and giftedness are hard. I feel like the focus is mostly on the disabilities and deficits and the idea is that if we keep working on that his giftedness will be fine...

Incidentally, there has been some hinting that my son could be add (and I can see why) - but it often doesn't quite bear out. He doesn't have some of the fundamental symtpoms of it like the organizational component, the impulsivity, the hyperactivity, etc. (I guess the word for that is subclinical) and I can see that his WISC profile may sort-of indicate ADD/ADHD. His eye doctors, OTs and myself all believe that the ADHD affinities are due to the hypotnia and vision (and probably his giftedness to a certain extent as well).

Also, I do not believe my son is HG... I believe he is just gifted. I think his true IQ is somewhere in the low 130s.

This is exactly what my DS needs and was recommended. I had no idea he was losing his place all of the time. I had no idea he had so many problems focusing his eyes... I had a feeling something was off with this vision but wasn't sure (his cross eyes is not physically obvious b/c it's intermittent). Then at the WISC (I got to observe the entire tests) I could tell there was somethign really wrong with how he sees (and I though he either has an LD or a vision disorder) but I had no idea he was losing his place so much and had so many problems actually focusng his eyes.

I know you mentioned in another post that you had surgery on your son's eyes. Are you sure that the it corrected the strsabismus completely? Have you had the NPC tests and all that again? From what I have learned in my research, my understanding is that the surgery is very often not a complete success and that often times the eyes appear to be corrected and looking staright but that there are still focusing issues, movement issues, etc. and vision therapy is still needed after the surgery. Also, I have heard that more than one surgery is often neeeded. All of this is just what I have been finding out researching how we want to proceed with treating DS' strasbismus so I am no expert by any mean s but just some thoughts.... My DS is doing VT now but I am still exploring getting surgery done.

Here's my input - it may come across as random and scattered - hope it helps a bit!

I think if the low dip in coding speed was related to a true LD (visual challenge or fine motor skill) you'd also see a low dip in the academic fluency score, because those tests require handwriting and are timed. "Academic Fluency" Is a combined score, made up (if I remember correctly) of writing fluency, math fluency and reading fluency. If there was scatter in the fluency subtest scores that might mean something, but I"m guessing your ds is solid across the subtests.

I have heard repeatedly over the years that low processing speed (coding) shows up in the WISC profile for kids with ADHD. That doesn't mean your ds has ADHD, but you've had feedback from school that he has behaviors that sound similar to what you'd see in a child with ADHD and the psych also commented that it's a possibility. I *wouldn't* want to wait 2 years to figure out if your ds has ADHD or not, but it also probably isn't something you are going to figure out right away. I would ask your pediatrician for a referral for an ADHD evaluation - the type of evaluation where the dr takes a developmental history and has parents *and* teachers fill out behavioral questionnaires. Our ds was diagnosed with ADHD (inattentive type) in 2nd grade, but he is also EG and 2e. What clarified things for us was the ADHD-specific evaluation.

I wouldn't totally ignore the possibility of an LD either - as I said, I don't think you have signs of one in the scores but he does have a very low coding score relative to his other scores. If you notice he's struggling at all with handwriting or keeping up with timed assignments, then I think it would be worth investigating the low coding score further. FWIW, the behaviors that our ds had that his teachers attributed to ADHD in 2nd grade were actually behaviors due to his undiagnosed LD - he doesn't have ADHD.

Last thought - I was a little surprised your psych didn't give you scores for VIQ and PRI on the WISC. They do have scatter, and I've read that the degree of scatter you've seen is enough to have questions about the accuracy of averaging them together, but I've also never seen a report with that (smallish) degree of scatter not scored for VCI and PRI (but please know I'm not a psych, just the mom of two 2e kiddos!). I am *not* surprised they didn't calculate the FSIQ given the relatively low processing speed score, but I think the GAI (given it's calculated correctly) is a good estimate as long as the subtest scores for VIQ and PRI are roughly accurate.

Did the psych make any notes about attention or being distracted during the WISC?

Last thought on the coding speed - our ds had a very low coding score on his first WISC. At the time the psych felt it was due to his age (6) and not really "getting it" that it was important to move quickly on a timed test, and possibly being a bit of a perfectionist and she expected it would go up in a few years when he retested. She said these were very typical things for a 6 year old - so I am restating it only to let you know she felt they were very typical and wasn't surprised by a dip in processing speed when testing young children.

polarbear

I had to look up what NPC tests are. I'm not sure if his Pediatric Ophthalmologist did them but I would guess so. The PO is satisfied that his eyes are straight and that he is seeing well. He does use bifocals because his close vision is weak, probably because of the double vision he had for nearly 6 years. He also had intermittent strabismus which didn't start becoming obvious to us until he was about 4 or 5.

The PO seemed to think that with the type of strabismus he had the one surgery will probably be enough, but of course can't guarantee that. I had similar concerns about surgery at first. We decided to do the surgery because his vertical misalignment was pretty severe and likely would only get worse. We didn't want his brain to shut down and stop using one of his eyes. He also tilted his head and we didn't want to end up with head or neck issues. It turned out to be a relatively easy surgery - about an hour - and the recovery was easy for him. He does still have a very slight inward eye turn that could not be corrected with surgery (it's not noticeable at all) but this is being addressed with a slight prism in his glasses.

Whether or not the vision issues impacted his learning I really can't say.

Thank you for this information. I will definitely followup and research that. It makes sense to me.

Thanks polarbear - a lot of good information in your reply.

Here are his subtests on WJ-III.

Reading fluency 128
Math fluency 112
Writing fluency 128

But he got a 162(!) in calculation...I've seen him write out all the multiplication tables quickly - he draws fast and his handwriting is great (they teach cursive in Montessori beginning in K)

I think what you said about his age makes sense. I don't think he has had to do much timed work in Montessori and maybe didn't realize he was supposed to move quickly.

Just today, DS told me that he didn't do two in-class assignments he was supposed to do because he was doing other things and ran out of time. *sigh* At least the school knows that he is gifted and I hope his teacher (who is new to the school but had experience as a gifted teacher in public schools) will be patient with him. I'm wondering now if I need to talk to her sooner than later or let her have a couple months to get to know him and then maybe talk about his scores during P-T conferences? I don't want to pounce in the second week of school LOL

Knowing what the WJ tests are testing might give a little more insight. There should be more of them than what you've got here, but based on these four:

Reading fluency isn't one I'm familiar with. Math fluency is a timed test of solving math facts. Writing fluency looks at essentially how well a child follows written conventions (punctuation, spelling, etc.) in writing short sentences. Calculation tests basic mathematical computation skills and is not timed as far as I know.

With some help from someone with more knowledge than I have on calculating WISC #s, FWIW, the scores you have on your first post of this thread would give him a VCI of 121, a PRI of 129, a WMI of 123, a PSI of 91, and a FSIQ of 123.

Thanks Cricket. That is helpful. Do you know if the FSIQ is comparable to the Total Achievement number (which was 143) - are they both considered an "IQ score"? They are so different so I am not sure what to make of that still. I was expecting to see scores on the WISC-IV like he got on the WJ.

I have more WJ subtest scores but was only listing those related to fluency which the other poster was talking about. Here are the rest:

Letter-Word ID 141
Story Recall 115
Understanding Directions 118
Spelling 146
Passage Comprehension 145
Applied Problems 141
Story Recall Delayed 114
Reading fluency 128
Math fluency 112
Writing fluency 128
Calculation 162

Reading fluency is "speed of reading sentences and answering yes or no to each" (I looked up what the tests were myself)

He seems to have issue with the speed tests and recalling things verbally (although I supposed 115 isn't really a "problem" but it's low for him...). We have noticed that sometimes when he is trying to explain things he gets "stuck" and it takes him a second to get the right word out. It doesn't happen all the time so I'm not sure if that is considered a stutter or not (he doesn't sound like what I think of when I think of stuttering...). Maybe that is related to all of this.

I guess we are at the point of deciding do we pursue more testing/evaluation now or wait until he matures a little bit? We know where he has some weaknesses which will be helpful in the meantime I guess.

Glad to see your post and responses as I was going to post about our DS9 that took WISC IV last year. Thought I would share to help and also seek any additional advice
The difference between his verbal comprehension (155) and processing speed (121) 34 pts seems to be causing some frustration/overwhelming feelings now that he is in the throws of 5th grade. We just now figured out he may have ADD Inattentive type. He shows many signs of it that may have been "masked" in his Montessori class environment (he went through Lower El. Montessori classroom and switched to a traditional, magnet gifted class for 4th and now 5th). In his three years of Montessori he could daydream/stare at the creases in his hand for 5 minutes and it really didn't matter. Put the same kid in a traditional class and in 5 minutes the teacher may have just given the outline of what is expected on a project. He got through traditional 4th grade (with A's no less) with a teacher that offered "redo's" for careless mistakes and me hanging over his side prodding him to focus and get his work done. Now we know there is something needs to be addressed...sooner, not later Have a call in to the psychologist.

I just saw this thread (linked from your more recent thread).

I notice many similarities to my 7yo son's scores, see here
http://giftedissues.davidsongifted...._scattered_scores_Any_th.html#Post150672
in particular, relatively lower scores in Comprehension, Picture concepts, Coding, Symbol search (but despite low PSI, still high fluency in WJ-III ach.). I'm also curious what it all means.