I am gettin a bit frustrated with my older dd12. She is (recently tested PG) a good kid and is doing great at initiating her own learning as well as more often than not tolerating the mundane. the one thing that is making me crazy is that she is quite a slob (to put it bluntly). I have to remind her to shower, brush her teeth, clean her room etc. I know that cleaning her room is common for kids at this age...but the teeth brushing, showering? I have left lists and notes and yet...nothing changes. Any suggestions? thoughts?

I am sorry to say that for some kids those things are low on the priority list. I sometimes wonder if it is because they feel like no one cares what they look like since they don't understand them anyways. Some of my students have used it as a defense mechanism to keep others away from them so they don't have to bother trying to be nice to people they don't really want to be with. Unfortunately, this often backfires and draws more attention to them because most of their peers are obsessed with their appearances at this point.
I unfortunately don't have any advice, but wanted to let you know that you are not the only one having these issues.
Good luck.

Being messy, I get. Why bother picking it up? I know where it is. If I pick it up now I'll just have to take it out again later.

But personal hygiene? Gifted kids usually have the sensory overexcitability, which leads to being unable to stand being dirty. My DD went through a period around age 2 where she insisted on being carried from the slide to the swings, so our challenge was the opposite... teaching a kid it's okay to be dirty.

Besides, showering should be a pleasant sensory experience when you're doing it right. Maybe she's doing it wrong? There are a lot of things that can turn it into something unpleasant... water too hot/cold, towels too thin, scratchy loofas, smelly soaps/shampoos, bathroom steaming up too heavily, etc. DD6 has a habit of emerging from the bathroom, soaking wet, to ask for help drying off. That's a pretty unpleasant experience during winter, so she's trying to learn to stay in the bathroom where it's warm and call for help instead.

So it's probably worth it to talk to her about it and see if there might be something that can be done to make it better for her. And maybe there's something that can be done with the toothbrush, too... let her try other toothpastes, get her an electric brush if she doesn't already have one, etc. Unfortunately, I don't know anyone who enjoys a good tooth brushing, so there's probably no easy fix there.

At our house, on weekends, we generally don't have any kind of schedule, and people pretty much groom themselves depending on how the day progresses. This lends itself to some teasing about who is still a "stinky butt," which gives us a playful way to impart the social consequences of not showering. It doesn't matter whether the person has a noticeable odor or not... if you haven't had your shower yet, you're a stinky butt.

Confession: I was a PG slob in 6th grade, and now I'm a PG slob in my mid-forties who relies on 6th graders to help keep my classroom organized. But I do take daily showers and brush my teeth now, and have for many years. My kitchen, on the other hand...

There are a couple of components to this problem. On a crime show, I'd say we have to look at both means and motive. Let's look at motivation first.

At this age, what peers think is becoming much more important to kids than what their parents say, and that's what keeps most kids clean and groomed--sometimes obsessively--at this age. It could be that she doesn't understand her peers, and they don't understand her.

As a PG kid, she may be so alien to her same-age peers, that they may treat her as a freak whether she's clean or dirty, frankly. Peer feedback does not work the same way for her that it does for a kid closer to the center of the bell curve. That's an issue that will either resolve itself in the next year or two, or will get much worse.

A gentle suggestion from adult she knows and trusts--who is not part of her nuclear family--may have more impact than every thing that you say.

These tasks you mention are, frankly, boring. There is no intrinsic motivation, and you probably have a daughter who is all about challenging herself to solve difficult problems and not big into external validation.

I suggest a point system, in which consistent attention to specific tasks (brushing teeth, daily shower, putting dirty clothes in the hamper), earns points, which build up over time to be cashed in on a significant reward (maybe an experience of some kind, instead of an object) which means something to her. For it to be most effective, you would want her to participate--by negotiation--in the creation of the point system. The design of a system that will lead to something she really wants is the kind of task that will appeal to her, and make her feel that the whole system belongs to her.

As far as the means, we are talking about a mysterious phenomenon called "executive function". I struggle with both the theory and the practice, so I'm kind of hoping someone else will step in here.

Having made a study of motivation, I'd like to add that extrinsic motivation and tangible rewards do not usually work well for tasks that require a bit of creative problem solving (see Dan Pink's TED talk). This is why bribing kids to get As on their report cards or punishing teachers when their students' test scores drop do not work. However, they can be effective for very specific tasks that are easy to execute.

I would also like to point out, though it does not necessarily bear on this particular case, that tangible rewards have been found to be one of the most effective approaches for working with students with ADHD or oppositional issues.

So there you have it. Intrinsic and extrinsic can both be either effectively or ineffectively applied.

I think being slob is nothing related to giftedness. Gifted or not there are slobs everywhere.
is there any study????

Many Americans (including me) shower daily, but I wonder if there is any research showing that doing so only once or twice a week causes problems. That's what people did before running water.

I have one hold-my-nose-to-hug college student, one 11-year-old who'd rather do cannon balls in the tub than use soap and shampoo and a neat-nik 18-year-old who showers twice a day.

All three are gifted.

Personality is the biggest factor with my kids, not IQ.

I also agree that it is personality, not IQ. PG people I know have good hygiene. It helps with job stability...

And poor teeth brushing leads to wasting and painful time at the dentist. Not PG logic to me.

I think it is more the loner, introvert that may be into poor hygiene. If your kid is an extrovert PG, they will care about hygiene.

Ren

Poor personal hygiene is frequently associated with a sensory processing issue (or sensory over-excitabilities, however you choose to look at it) and/or with poor executive functioning (they mean to do these things, but forget to do them or "run out of time" repeatedly, so days go by). Identifying what is driving or perpetuating the behavior can frequently help to identify strategies to make it better.

Allowing your child to try out a variety of types of toothbrushes, toothpastes, soaps, shampoos, etc., giving them a choice between taking baths and showers, explicitly teaching how to adjust water temperature and clear the shower line of cold water before stepping in, installing a flexible showerhead with a range of spray settings, at least one of which is a "soft" or "champagne" setting, and one of which is a hard jet setting, making sure that the bathroom air temperature is right, etc., can help if sensory issues are causing avoidance.

The techniques in "Smart, but Scattered", and "Late, Lost and Unprepared" can help if executive function issues are playing a role. Strategies such as having a morning and evening checklist or reminder app that includes ALL routine tasks, including specific hygiene tasks, may be useful if implemented consistently and tied to some external rewards.

I'd be sure to note and praise immediately those occasions when your child does brush teeth and bathe.

Ugh I have a 5.5yr old who can't reliably remember to go to toilet before it's a desperate rush that offs involves leaking, who forgets to wash her hands and will go straight from eating with her hands to the piano, etc. It drives mencrazy and I live in fear of how this will evolve... She was such an amazingly tidy, organized toddler too.

Perhaps time to reread the Executive Function Resources. I am feeling better that she is not the only one in this situation. I was talking to my Mom about this. She said that my older brother who is gt had similar issues. He is now a successful man and minds his hygene just fine, but the teen years and through college were difficult.

haha! I have one of those! It wasn't until the middle of first grade that "accidents" became infrequent, but she manages to go to school and sleep away camp, etc and has never come home to tell me there was a problem so there's hope yet

My younger brother was like this and he still managed to get married once, then divorced (not due to his hygiene) and now has had a serious gf for 8 years or so...there's always hope

DD is the same. She'd never pick up after herself, shower or brush her teeth if we didn't make her. I get the feeling she just doesn't think about it. She likes to shower/bathe once she's doing it, but getting there just interrupts other 'stuff'. DD is only 6 so perhaps our approach is a little easier at this age, but I just set a time she has to have washed by and if it's not done I just don't engage with her till it is - which works in our instance because she is my shadow, so not having my attention is a 'big deal' (also, because this can drag out, she washes in the evening so we're not doing it at the last minute before school). And I only make her do it every second day unless she is grubby or has been sweaty (tooth brushing every day, obviously).

With her room I leave it because dd doesn't play in there much so it doesn't get too bad and we do a big clean together every month or two. She has to pack up her things in other parts of the house though, or miss out on privileges.

She does need reminding every time though, It wouldn't even occur to her to do it off her own bat (having said that, last night I came out to the lounge and she'd pack up the board game we'd been playing - I nearly fell over in shock!).

Sorry I don't really have any advice - just thought I'd mention you're not alone!

I am adding to my original thoughts as I send DDs off to get ready for bed. DD8 has touch sensitivities (tags, socks, jeans, etc.) and she HATES the feeling of soap bubbles - whether it is hand soap, shampoo or toothpaste. If she could she would simply do rinse off and avoid all cleaning products. She understands their use and importance, but she can't get past the feel of the bubbles on her skin. She is getting better at toughing it out, but mostly it takes either DH or I standing there making sure she does what she needs to do.

Kerry there is rarely a need for soaps and detergents on children. We use a very mild tasting low suds toothpaste and the kids only use soap on their bodies if thy are greasy a d shampoo their hair once a week after swimming to get the chlorine out. As their bodies start producing oils it will get trickier but for now the main suds in their life are for hand washing.

We also clean the house with Enjo products, we use very few chemicals in our house and thus avoid all the chemical smells and heavy perfumes.

Kerry-have you tried Dr Bronner's products? they are all natural, environmentally safe and have almost no suds...

Mumof3 - She only has to wash her hair about 2x a week, it is very long, so it tends to need to be washed at least that often. She also has an amazing attraction to dirt (it finds her at lightning speed, whether she is looking for it or not ), so we really don't make her use soap all the time, with the exception of her hands. Most of us are sensitive to smelly stuff, so the soap we use has no fragrances either.
2giftgirls - no, I've not heard of them, I'll look them up.

Yep, I'll also add that you're not alone Haven't found too many solutions. Special/dedicated products help sometimes, as does sharing showers/baths sometimes. And sometimes I just have to put my big fat foot down and insist!!

jojo

I'm happy to see all these responses, myself, just to see that I'm not alone either!

DS9 hates baths and showers, mostly because they interrupt whatever he wants to be doing instead, but there may be some sensory issues as well. He's had sensory issues of various sorts in the past. And I can remember being a very grubby child who *should* have been made to take a bath every night but wasn't, and thinking back, I would say that I had the same "interruption" issue along with some sensory ones. It's hard to read in the bathtub, impossible in the shower, and I have always hated to be steamy or sweaty. Giving my own children baths when they were babies was the worst part of the day, because the bathroom is steamy and I would get splashed, and I purely hated it. I think DS9's thing is mostly just not wanting to take the time out of his busy schedule to do it, though. I only make him do it twice a week unless he's specifically dirty.

DD5 loves baths and sometimes showers, and asks for one every day, then stays in there until it's completely cold. She does tend to get out and holler about being cold as she runs through the house all wet, but it doesn't stop her from doing it next time.

also-regarding the sensory thing...Butter never liked the bath too warm, in fact, more like lukewarm at best and while she was ok, never liked to stay in and play or anything like that. Now we don't have to fight to get her to take a shower, but she's fairly quick at it. The way I got that to happen was pointing out she would not be able to go to sleep away camp unless she could and would bathe her self. But she also liked room temperature food and bottles, etc. I wouldn't say she's overly sensitive, but she really just likes jeans and tshirts, isn't into primping and doesn't really care what the bath products smell like either...

The Diva LOVES the bath like Nautigal's and would spend the whole day in it, go figure...

I also am quick in and out of the shower, don't like it too hot (again, most people call my shower downright cold, which it is not, lol) but I do love some smelly ol bath stuff...

Dedicated products, choosing products the child likes, sponges, brushes, whatever...and the occasional foot stomp if you have to, lol!

I appreciate all the insights. I am inclined to think that the issue is more of an executive function issue rather than a sensory issue. She is a busy kid and hygene simply is not on her radar. Once we tell her to shower, she will stay in there for hours if we would let her. She loves Bath and Body type stuff. I suppose we just have to keep on it until she decides that it is important on her list of stuff to do.

I'm basically completely disorganized, but I'm completely clean. My house and office may be disorganized to the point where I don't know where anything is, but I have an extreme dislike for being dirty, and getting dirty (in activities such as gardening and yard work), and being uncomfortable.

So, in my case, cleanliness and organization (or executive function or whatnot) have no relationship to each other.

Apparently this isn't a new problem...

"(Archimedes') passion for geometry, Plutarch adds, "made him forget his food and neglect his person, to that degree that when he was occassionally carried by absolute violence to bathe, or have his body annointed, he used to trace geometrical figures in the ashes of the fire, and diagrams in the oil on his body, being in a state of entire preoccupation, and, in the truest sense, divine possession with his love and delight in science.""

Found in the book Coming of Age in the Milky Way by Timothy Ferris.

Well...we the non gifted...say "UUUUUGGGHHHHHHHH!" lol

When I was a kid, I read about Archimedes in the encyclopedia. He was drawing circles in the dirt--no doubt to work out the solution to some sort of problem--and told a Roman soldier not to mess up the circles, so the Roman solider killed him.

I thought, "I can so totally see that happening to me."

Archimedes had peers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antikythera_mechanism

Not sure that's completely accurate:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archimedes

Seconded, except that these days I'm much more organized, though I can't take credit for it. I married an OCD woman whose home looked like a museum, and we worked to find some middle ground.

It was pretty fun when we started staying at each others' apartments and were both afraid to touch anything, though for completely different reasons.

I had a fastidious roommate, a former Naval linguist, the summer I went to Beijing Daxue (Peking University). When we moved into the room, I pointed out the far corner of the room, on the other side of my bed. I said, "OK, this corner of the room is going to be an unholy mess, but I will try to keep the rest of the room neat."

That worked out pretty well. Her culture shock, on the other hand, was a completely different story.