Ok, I know (think) we all want to give our children the best so that they can fulfill their potential and get their needs met.

But what about our needs? Do they get lost in the shuffle... or not necessarily?

I'm 27. A guy I went to school is an experimental physicist. He just created something that could seriously change the face of medicine if everything goes well. He messaged me to tell me congrats on my family and I asked him about it. He was polite and asking me what motherhood was like, but I was really just dying to talk about his discoveries.

My husband came home from work right after I found out about it and I explained to him, through tears, what my friend had done. I was crying because I feel like I've completely let myself down and squandered any potential I might have had.

I am 99.9% sure that no mommy I know in real life would ever cry over something like this lol.

I know being a mom is an important job, but I also know that almost anyone can become a mom and work hard at it. I don't feel like my entire purpose in life is to be a mother. I have been craving intelligent conversation for a few months now and the only place I get it is on internet forums.

How do you all deal with these feelings? Even if you don't stay home, I think having children requires you give up quite a bit of yourself. If you are a SAHM, well, I don't know. I feel like only a tiny piece of me still exists.



PS. PM me if you know of a better forum on the internet for posts like these. I don't want to mess up the feng shui of these forums.

I think you've asked a good question (and a hard question, in so many ways).

Life is a struggle for everyone, and it's so hard to see what the consequences of your decisions will be at the time you make them. It's easy to criticize your choices or feel bad about them after you've made them, but you might have felt the same way if you'd decided to do something else. Re-evaluating your decisions is a sign of a thinking person.

Please don't judge yourself too harshly. Just remember one thing: if you want to change the direction of your life, you can. It's just that changing will be hard (but this means that it will be like everything else in life that's worth striving for). My mom started a business in her 40s. It ended up supporting the family for 25 years.

I struggle with what I do and am very concerned that I made some very bad choices, yet don't know how I could have done things differently. So I just keep plodding. A few years ago when I didn't get a grant I wanted very badly, I put a sticky post-it on my wall that says "DON'T GIVE UP!" It's still there and I look at it all the time. A couple of years ago, my little girl wrote another sticky post-it that says, "Don'T give UP MoMMY!" and another one that says, "I love you forever." Am I being maudlin? Maybe, but I don't care. I look at them both all the time, too. They help a lot.

You're right that having kids means you have to give up a lot, but so do many other choices. But you also get a lot. Remember that.

It's perfectly reasonable to want more out of your own life than what you have right now. It's okay to re-evaluate a decision and make a change (it's often a good thing!).



Val (who keeps on plodding)

I would cry over something like that, in a heartbeat. Heck, I nearly cried just now reading about it.

I used to feel like I was not fulfilling my potential all the time. I still do, at times. I find that I have to remember that "my potential" is more than my intellectual ability. It is a combination of many factors, and changes over time (sometimes, it seems, from moment to moment). My time, my material and social resources, my community, my energy, my health, my executive functioning, and my personality all contribute to the equation of what I can reasonably expect myself to accomplish.

It took me a long time to realize this.

Be gentle with yourself. There is nothing wrong with wanting to do more than be a full-time SAHM. At some point, probably relatively soon, the nature of the demands will change, and you will have a little more time to do the things that engage your mind and make your heart sing, even if you aren't making scientific breakthroughs before breakfast. There are trade-offs that come with every decision, and one of the trade-offs in being a care-giving parent of a high-intensity child often is is a having a few really grueling months or years where nothing much else gets accomplished.

You are 27. By the time you are the age I was when my first child was born, yours will be almost school-aged. So I count you as ahead of the game, from my perspective. Serious illness took a huge chunk out of my productive years, and left me with a career path that resembles a meadering cow track strewn with tangled barbed wire far more than it resembles the smooth, glorious, meteoritic arc that I envisioned in my youth. But it has been a grand adventure, and, looking back, I am incredibly grateful for (almost) all of the experiences I have had along the way. Cow paths, after all, have a lot more latitude for exploration, discovery, and enjoyment than expressways or ballistic trajectories do. It was hard to have that perspective at the time, though.


Hang in there.

(hugs)

I think that is a hard place to be. Just by circumstances, I did not have a child early, so I had a career. Having a child later, I can say "been there, done that" for a lot of career stuff. But it doesn't mean I don't miss my brain. When DD was 1.5 years I was offered a 2 month gig. I flew to Brussels for 3 days. It took me 2 days to figure out what anyone was saying. I was shocked at how out of shape my brain had become.

I had to come to terms that I wanted my child more than anything and I was smart enough to pick up the pieces when I needed to. In the spring, I was thinking about working again. But then I thought I had to travel. I sat back and figured out what I could do as a SAHM. I looked at the options and figured out a path. Not one I would have done otherwise when I thought just a job. Your friend may have developed something, but you are still just 27.

You did close some doors having a child now. But there are many paths ahead. You are smart enough to figure it out, after you get through the early years. There isn't enough sleep, at least not for me, in the first 3 years. You are not finished until you are dead. That is my slogan. As long as I am not dead, I can try again.

Ren

It is tough. I had my child late so I had career success first, but becoming a mother meant reprioritising and I see friends in different circumstances achieving more than I do now. Mostly I don't mind - I've made my choices with eyes wide open - but occasionally it does get to me. (What gets to me more often, but this is a different topic, is seeing DH have more energy to put into work achievements than I do because most of the parenting etc. falls to me. I'm the one spending time on this website, for example; he just comes to the meetings. It's my choice to be here and I get a lot out of it, but it's time he's spending thinking about his work...)

I think you're at a really tough stage, particularly given that you're younger and haven't had so much time to do the BTDT stuff pre-baby. It will get better.

Hmm. Thinking a bit more, are there two different things going on here for you, wanting to achieve and be recognised, and wanting to get enjoyable intellectual stimulation? Which is more at issue, would you say? Is part of the problem the difficulty in getting both from one activity? The first is tough when you don't have much time, although I know you have a fledgling business and maybe it'll make your millions in due course, good luck! Would it maybe help to add some purely-because-you-want-to learning into each day, even if only for a few minutes? E.g. maybe pick a Great Courses course you like the look of and watch an episode while your DD feeds, if that's easier to fit into your life than reading?

FWIW, now that DS is older, I feel much more that it's intellectually "different" rather than "less" than what I'd be doing otherwise, because he's learning all the time and often it's things I don't know myself and I get to learn things too.

It is hard to know what to do with life. I did not have my one and only child til I was a month away from 40! I sort of feel like I have lived 2 lives: a child-free professional, and now a working mom.

For me now, I wish I had had my 1st child earlier so I could have had time to have a 2nd. I did not know how much I would love having a child. When I didn't have kids, I actually felt bad for women pushing strollers and holding their toddler's hand! I never realized how wonderful the mother-child bond is. I thought it was all hype.

Having a child complicates schooling, but doesn't rule it out. I'm in school for yet another graduate degree and wish I had started that 10 years ago! My life is full of hind sight! But I do remind myself regularly of everything I have done and do now. Having a full life with lots of interests is a great life.

(So I didn't mean that to sound all preachy and inspiring-like ha ha!)

I'm personally trying to figure out what I'm going to do with the next 30 years of my life, now that I'm 37.

My life is basically one big regret at this point, and it will probably stay that way for some time. I'm on the "empty life with no interests" career track.

I think that regretting all of your major life choices is normal for many people. I'm pretty much devoid of any purpose in life at this point beyond family. My major career goal is to not get fired or commit malpractice, so that I continue to draw a salary. I actually have very little interest in my own life.

Although life is better now than when I was in college and law school, where I basically slept, played computer games, read fiction, and ate pizza, having no interest in being either in college or law school.

Jon, you sound like my ex-husband (also a lawyer...) except you are 10 years too young

I think family is a good purpose to have, so good for you!

It's a feature of lawyers.

There are some really funny bitter lawyer blogs out there.

Island, you are a young person. If you want to go back to school, you can. If you want to find a job, you can. You have a lot of options. And most people haven't (don't ever) discovered something huge by that age.

FWIW I found it very difficult to have little kids. They try my patience. I am doing much better, feeling more balanced and in control, with bigger kids. Any choice you make should come in the context of "this is all going to gradually change over time."

From this and your other posts, I'm wondering whether you are feeling kind of depressed. If you are, maybe seeing a cognitive-behavior therapist would help you get over past stuff and enjoy what's happening now?

I think your choices include learning to enjoy what's happening now, or changing the situation so that it's more enjoyable. Either way is good...

DeeDee

I think this is a major issue for Island. Small children are extremely difficult.

Oh, and Island, I think that you can probably rule out "Law School" as a solution to your problem.

Just in case you were thinking about hurling yourself at a random law school.

I, too, have wondered this. I was YOU nine years ago! It wasn't until DD was 2 years old that I realized that I had had PPD and how it affected our family. I was plagued by feelings of inadequacy and failure.... and I HAVE a wonderful, fulfilling career. I blamed how I felt on everything from my poor DH to the size of our house. There had to be a reason why I felt at loose ends with the world.

Not to assume that this would be a reason or cause in your situation, but sometimes you need someone from the outside looking it to point out what is oblivious to you. I wish so badly that I could redo my DD's babyhood, I would never want anyone to suffer like I did.

As a patent attorney, there are few things that impress me less than patents.

Patents are profitable for patent attorneys, often not so profitable for individuals and small companies. I try to talk people out of them whenever possible these days.

Not to worry. Patent reform is on the way!

Anyway, back to Island's regularly scheduled Quarterlife crisis.

These are such amazing responses, so I want to respond to all of them!

Thanks, Val. And I agree with this:
"It's just that changing will be hard (but this means that it will be like everything else in life that's worth striving for)."
I've got positive quotes all over the place to try to cheer me on. I have a vision board I made before I got pregnant (filled with stuff having to do with libraries (the library is the center haha), science, travel, history, writing, fantasy, healthy eating, and family. Everything I love and want for my life.)

I have an inspiring quote on the desktop of my computer that I wrote. I messed around the past few years, but finally got serious about my business this May. My sites are starting to make some income, traffic is growing, and I am earning the money "while I sleep". It is not an amazing career and doesn't have any sort of status attached to it (in fact, the opposite), but I'll feel good if I can contribute income while our kid(s) are small.


I have to say that I ran over to the stairs and shouted over the banister down to DH - "Someone else said they'd cry, too! I'm not the only one!"
DH really didn't know how to handle me last night except to give me a hug and tell me I'm not a failure.

You sound like you've come to terms with the way things are. I gave up my lifelong dream of becoming a singer. I feel like I came so close to it and walked away. I still can't sing or listen to music very often. I absolutely can not go to a concert, because I will cry.

But I was so unhappy with the music industry. If I had ditched the singing idea earlier, I would have gone to college instead. I took the SAT test on a whim. One of the my sister's friends was bragging about his high score and getting scholarships to college. I had a higher score! I didn't even apply to college.

I think one of my big problems is not knowing what to concentrate on. I've settled for my business right now, but I feel like I'm settling with being mediocre and not reaching high enough. I'm not prepared to put in the time necessary to do anything amazing (get a PhD, do a software start-up with DH, etc.) I felt like tearing every Physics book I have off the shelf last night and devouring them, but I can't imagine ever dedicating the time and effort needed to get a PhD in that.
Any career I choose to go after now will take away my time from my family. No one dies wishing they spent more time working, right?

"As long as I am not dead, I can try again."
I like that.



"Thinking a bit more, are there two different things going on here for you, wanting to achieve and be recognised, and wanting to get enjoyable intellectual stimulation? Which is more at issue, would you say? Is part of the problem the difficulty in getting both from one activity?"

Yes. They are both an issue for me. I do get some small amount of intellectual stimulation when I do research and write for my sites. I don't get to talk to anyone about things, though. I'm mostly writing practical stuff for readers who just want solutions to their problems.

There is certainly no prestige in what I'm doing. In fact, almost everyone I know acts embarrassed if I tell them what I'm doing. They don't understand how I make money writing content for my websites.

The good thing about having your career first, is that people will still take you seriously. I don't have a lot of friends with graduate degrees and no one assumes I'd want to talk about anything they might be working on. I'm just a SAHM with NO degree. Plus, maybe I really can't keep up with them.

When I was reading that crappy Hothouse Kids book, she was talking about gifted students at a gifted charter school. She mentioned how they interacted with each other. They told nerdy jokes (probably puns) and talked freely about academic subjects. No one bullied them about it or looked at them like they were crazy. That is kind of how I feel on this forum. Reading that made me think I might seek a gifted program for DD if she ends up being gifted (and if I could find one around here.) I'm a bit lonely, but I know we've talked about this on here before.

I think the consensus was to take up hobbies to meet people who at least share some interests.

And here's that bloggin SAHM lawyer talking about post-partum depression.

I don't have the slightest idea whether it's relevant, but she's giving a first-person account of the experience.

www.butidohavealawdegree.com/2011/07/watch-out-world-im-almost-off-my-meds.html

Hi Island,

Again I can relate to much of what you have said. I had my daughter at about the same age and was very much in the same situation you're in now. Ultimately, 5 years later, I now have it figured out most of the time - though I have my days, as I am sure most of us do, when I wonder if I am making the right choices.

But I couldn't have got to that point without some counselling. Like kathleen'smum I had undiagnosed PPD for the first two years of dd's life and it was really only after I started counselling for that that I could get my thoughts in any kind of order - And it took me about another 12 months from there. Until that point my head was just a swirl of lost chances, possibilities, impossibilities, resentment, feeling dependent, feeling bored etc. My mind couldn't settle on one thing long enough to make a decision and things wouldn't happen fast enough to make it worth my while (in my mind at least). I wish I'd gone to see someone earlier.

Now, you may well not have PPD (though you'd be very normal if you did, particularly based on the history you have shared here) - but even if you don't, seeing someone might help to work out what your goals are - give you some tools to help you reach them. I found cognitive behavioural therapy extremely useful because it made so much sense and I still use it all the time to check myself and whether or not I am being rational. It has been wonderful - completely life changing if I'm honest.

The other thing I wanted to mention was that I too didn't want to have to invest the time in something. Personally, I wanted success in something immediately and it had to be something meaningful and stimulating and valuable to society. None of which was realistic without time. Your friend won't have just come up with his idea over the weekend - I imagine the scaffold for such an idea would have been developed over years of study and accumulated knowledge. A couple of years ago I finally accepted that to do something I find really fulfilling, it is going to take me years - but because of my relatively young age the nearly 8 years of study I have to do will see me complete it by the time I'm 38. By then my daughter will be in high school and I will be better positioned to work at a career again (I had a successful career before but it was utterly meaningless to me). In the mean time I'm studying something I am passionate about and I'm able to focus on getting dd's needs met (well... I'm hoping we'll get there at some point!). I realize spending years out of the work force isn't realistic for everyone and while it has come at a considerable financial cost to us, I feel very lucky.

I guess I'd point out too that you have had a pretty tough time in those 27 years based on the things you have described and for much of it I imagine you've really just had to focus on surviving. That is a pretty big achievement in itself - it doesn't leave a lot of room for more standard achievements. The resilience you will have built up will stand you in good sted in helping you achieve whatever you want to now that you're in a more supportive situation. So it is by no means wasted time.

If you're not keen on going to see someone but think some 'thinking about your thinking' might help, there are some good books that discuss the basic techniques - the one my psych recommended was 'Change Your Thinking' by Sarah Edelman.

Take care,

Giftodd

This sounds like me and my lifelong dream of becoming a lawyer!

To draft world-changing legal briefs and argue the great civilization-changing arguments before the highest court in the land! I was going to bask in the sheer glory and majesty of the law!

Actually, that's not true at all.

I didn't have any desire to actually practice law when I went to law school. Or any interest in law.

In fact, it wasn't clear to me what lawyers even did day-to-day.

Then when I got out and started practicing, I realized that, yep, I still had no interest in it.

However, it was a way to stay in school another three years and avoid ever having to work in a chemical plant as a chemical engineer. And, never having had a real job in my life, it was important to me to avoid the world of work for as long as humanly possible.

And those chemicals are toxic! And they explode fairly often.

People ask me why I went to law school when I majored in engineering. I explain that I didn't need to be exposed to toxic chemicals. It wasn't until my Junior year that I figured out what engineers actually did. I wasn't exactly thrilled with my discovery.

There's a life lesson in my story somewhere.

Ah, Jon, you totally crack me up! Good on you for finding the humour in your situation.

I can SO relate to this.

Someone mentioned the first few years being harder, personally my eldest has only gotten harder and harder to parent. She wakes me up less at night but those practicalities aside she's not easier.

Sorry I don't have anything more insightful than that to add...

If it makes you feel any better, I had wanted to be an attorney since I was 8, yet I still hate it. In fact, the only attorneys I know who actually enjoy the practice of law are a**holes that I wouldn't want to ever actually spend time with. I can't imagine a more soul destroying profession out there.

island, I think you are facing the perfect storm, unfortunately. Young children are incredibly difficult for some people (my child didn't sleep on top of the normal difficult baby stuff), but that does get much better.

And I haven't really known anyone who found the intellectual stimulation they crave at work, unless they are very lucky. Even in many educated professions, you don't always find that many people who are intellectually curious enough to live anything more than a shalow life of glibness. Just keep that in mind, since it might not really be work that you are craving.

And it does get better.

What I'm basically doing right now is basically a form of social work (disability law). Mostly so I can avoid billing hours by doing contingency fee work.

I don't mind the part where I get to sue insurance companies for not paying the benefits they previously agreed to pay and then cut off the claimant because they wanted to save money. ERISA is so insurance-company friendly that you can lose pretty easily, though. We only get bench trials for them down here in the Fourth Circuit.

I decided in the spring of my Senior year that I didn't want to go to grad school. A BA in Psychology does not offer much in the way of rewarding career paths, particularly when it's the spring of your Senior year and you have absolutely no clue what sort of work you might like to do, or how to go about getting it.

I loved my college experience socially, but the "4 years and out" plan was not a good one for me in terms of figuring out what I wanted to do with my life and preparing me to do it.

I agree with the young kid comments. My husband is a SAHD while I work and Boo is a few months off from 2yo. He is unbelievably curious, fiercely independent, and an all-around adorable P.I.T.A. We adore him, but, man, it's exhausting raising him. And I can't tell you how many conversations have come about from my husband being almost completely unable to do anything that uses his intellect. My daughter, on the other hand is 12. It gets harder in some ways, but for us, a lot easier in others. Mostly because she can actually do things independently, not just *want* to do things independently.



This seems depressing to me. Sure, I'm not at full capacity - probably nowhere near full capacity, but I was hoping that at some point I could be. Well, darn.

i just stay zen-like and Lloyd Dobber about it all.


i'm 39 and still not sure what I am going to do when I grow up but I can't figure it all out this morning, I'm just gonna watch Fanboy & ChumChum with DD8 and get snuggly

IOA I think that so many of us have been there! I was a SAHM for 7 years, and in a lot of ways they were the most difficult of my life so far. Part of it was that I just felt so incredibly unproductive. I would see my husband work and accomplish things, and I was terribly jealous of him. I missed intelligent conversation so much and just felt lost. Of course, none of us moms should really feel that way while we're at home. We're doing an important job, it just doesn't feel like it to us while it's going on.

But it doesn't last forever! Or at least it doesn't have to, if you don't want it to. Last year, when my youngest hit all-day school in first grade, I went back to grad school full-time. I decided to become a high school math teacher, and right now I'm doing my semester of student teaching. It is really difficult...I'm having a lot of trouble balancing my workload and spending time with my family...but it gives me another purpose and a great sense of accomplishment.

BTW - I'm young too, and I never had that period of career success before quitting my job. I hated my old job (actuary) and knew that I wouldn't want to go back to it after the kids were in school. Now that I have a new plan, I can say that I am hopeful and excited about the rest of my life.

Here's my woulda, coulda, shoulda.

When my first child was born, 11 years ago, I left work. They offered me a great deal to work 3 days and still get benefits.

Now I wish I would stayed in my work at least part time, because after 11 years, I'm so out of date. I think if possible, even if I gave my whole paycheck to the baby sitter, I would have been better off, now if I go back to work, my pay will be so low. Even if things are good with a husbands work that can change. I just think I would of been better to keep in the job market for more security. From what I've read, if you can go back before 5 years out of work, it's better.

My son was very high maintance baby and I felt overwhelmed and that was all I could handle.

I think it can be good for children to see a Mom working hard at something and balancing her life, which could include housekeepers and babysitters.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against stay at home Moms. As my faimily is stuggling now, I just relect on this as something to help others. I'm also thinking ahead to the kids college.

What a great topic!

Honestly I could see that so many of the moms around me were feeling this same thing. I was in shock, because spending time with baby DS I felt freer to have intelligent conversations than anytime since college. To me, getting big ideas down into simple words and metaphors was the most interesting challenge I'd ever met. Up until that point I was working hard to 'fit in' with others and in a fairly heterogeneous environment where the ones who were smarter than me were pretty much only interested in their own narrow areas. Even before DS could talk much, he could nod his head, or signal me by focusing his eyes or letting his attention wander. We'd have plenty of interesting conversations 'call and response' style. And a good thing because once he could talk, he wanted to do most of the talking! I wonder if he learned that from me?!?

But I think that I'm gifted in a very particular way, that makes reading between the lines my funnest thing. I know lots of people who seem more gifted and much for focused. I think you could have 2 PGers in a room and there could be wonderful conversation or total boredom - depending on their personalities.

I think DS and I just sort of got lucky. Part of the reason I was able to let him go to boarding school is that I felt he had already learned as much from me as most kids do by age 18, and he needed 'fresh meat' from other adults and time and space to get to see himself. So far so good.

I worked part time until he was 4, then 3/4 time, now time +, but very 9-5ish. I don't think I could handle physically or emotionally the kind of job my DH has where 60 hours is normal, unless I really had to, or totally believed in what I was doing heart and soul. Even working 43 hours a week, there is very little room for much else. I'm 75% fulfilled by using my gifts, but 110% exhausted. As long as the motivation to keep DS happy and growing is there, it works for me. But my imagination I'd work four 6 -hour days and be done with it! There are always so many interesting other things to do and think about.

((shrugs and more shrugs))
Grinity

Island,

I was never identified as gifted as a child and I never really considered myself that bright. When I was about 25 I decided that I was the type of person that should go to college. It took me 5 years because I took short periods off to work full time for money to continue but I graduated just a month short of my 31st birthday. I started law school when I was 34. I had a baby when I was 35. I started working as a lawyer at 37 when my DS was almost 2.

Now, I have an almost 8 year old PG who has been both a challenge and joy to raise. I enjoy my job and my family and have worked hard for the balance - but it is a work in progress. I am a public lawyer so while I see my role as advocating for my clients, I also have to consider the public good and never fight just to fight. I feel like I have a good balance but that still does not mean that I don't alternate days of feeling like I should be doing more for my family and more for career - one day, I may be considering working part time while at the same time thinking of the next big project at work I want to take on.

I realize now that I was likely a gifted kid who checked out due to lack of challenge and I often wonder what my life would have been like had I gotten my act together sooner, but I really feel like the challenges that I have overcame to get to where I am have made me the relatively happy and fulfilled person I am today.

Anyway, I tell you all of this so that you know that starting late can work out and that it is all a work in progress.

I know that I would have gotten much more out of college if I was going to college now as opposed to going there straight out of high school from a purely intellectual perspective and from a social perspective. I was extremely immature and didn't adjust well at all in college. That was coupled with my mother dying of cancer while I was in college and my father suffering a debilitating stroke while I was in law school. All in all, my college experience was pretty horrible, but that was mostly my fault for not being able to deal with things either at home or at school at the time.

I took the "check out of life" option during college and law school. Partially because it was the first time in my life I was actually challenged. I note that it's not a good idea to consider your life over and simply wait around for your life to end. I tried that. From experience, I note that there are no actual benefits from that approach. Except you can collect degrees without learning much of anything.

Check out of life? Bad idea.

Engage life? Good idea.

If you want to go to college, Island, I agree with Deonne, you can pretty much go whenever you want to go and ultimately do whatever you feel like doing, but everything takes time.

But, remember. Law school is generally a bad idea.

Law school? Bad. Unless you really really love law and know what you are getting into.

Med school? Usually good idea. Radiation oncology? Lots and lots of $$$. Dermatology? Lots and lots of $$$. Cardiology? Severe stomach ulceration and burnout. Psychiatry? Well, you don't have to work long hours or operate.

Dental school? Usually good idea.

Ph.D.? Generally worse than med school, better than law school.

(All these opinions are based on the outcomes that I've noticed in my family, in-laws, friends, and clients)

And if you go to grad school, make sure you have an interest in the area first. Don't just randomly pick something.

If you want to go into an intellectually rigorous specialty, you probably need to spend 5 to 10 years working in the field (with relatively long hours) until you get to the point where you are an expert and can push the boundaries of the field forward.

My wife's been a SAHM for 9 years (she's 33 now). Although she went to college, she wants to be a teacher, so she now needs to go back and get the education credits she needs to actually be certified to teach. She's looking for a teacher's aide position at the moment. It's only now that our two kids are both in school that she feels the need to get an actual job rather than a "play" part-time job.

I just wanted to come back and reply to this.
I've checked back a few times and I am finding this thread to be very helpful and inspiring - but grounding, too.

I know I do need to be willing to put in the effort to get the rewards, and I also see I'm going to have to do some accepting when it comes to how life IS, now.

I can also plan to do things later if I want. Life isn't over (though my mom drilled it into my sister and I that life IS over when you have children!)

And about depression... I've been extremely depressed in my life before and this doesn't feel like it is coming close to that. I have my moments, but I'm definitely not suicidal or anything. I did go to therapy before and it helped a lot. I don't really want to go back to that at the moment, though.

My husband is finishing up school soon, so before he starts again he is giving me lots of time to work on my business. I spent all weekend working and the mornings so far this week. I feel so good about it. Really... getting to work makes me feel so wonderful and I feel rejuvenated. I wouldn't like working outside the home, though.

And in another thread someone mentioned that dad and baby need their time together, too. I've noticed DD is so much more attached to DH now and I think them spending so much time together is really great for them. So... I don't have to feel too guilty (yay!)

(On the other hand... DH ignores her more than I do and he plays too many video games. But I'm happy to have my break.)

I think this thread was very helpful and I'm sure I will come back to it in the future! Thank you all!

Yes. All the time. This is where Dabrowski's theory of positive disintegration comes in. Now I have to actually do something about it! If you have not read Living with Intensity I would strongly suggest it. Now to read the whole thread.

If there's one thing I would recommend in life, it would be to not play video or computer games. Particularly when you are playing games when you should be focusing on living life instead.

This is where I think Dabrowski's theory is relevant in situations like the OP describes...

http://positivedisintegration.com/brief.htm

"A basic premise of Dabrowski�s theory is that most people commonly experience an initial primary integration characterized by the adoption of prevailing social standards and mores. The average person accepts and lives by these external social mores with little question or conflict. Spurred by developmental potential, exemplary individuals come into conflict when their developing internal values and perceptions clash with the external views and mores they had previously inculcated. These individuals go through periods Dabrowski described as positive disintegration that challenge and eventually disintegrate the primary integration and lead to periods of deep reflection and soul-searching. Positive disintegration culminates in the emergence of an internally generated hierarchy of values, aims and goals. Ultimately a unique personality ideal emerges, representing the kind of person the individual wishes to strive to become. Advanced development is described as a secondary integration characterized by a comfortable adherence to one�s own unique values, goals and ideals.

Dabrowski presents a theory of personality development based on his observation that most people live their lives guided by their biological impulses (generally self-interest) and/or by uncritical adherence to social convention. Dabrowski also described a group of people who display an individualized developmental pathway. These people break away from a rote, unreflective view of life (what Dabrowski described as "negative adjustment") to develop an individualized, critically evaluated value structure ("positive adjustment"). This hierarchy of values comes to act as a benchmark by which all things are seen. Advanced development is possible because these people possess higher than average "developmental potentials." Developmental potential is a constellation of genetic features, expressed through environmental interaction that consists of three major aspects: overexcitability (OE), specific abilities and talents, and a strong drive toward autonomous growth, a feature that Dabrowski called the third factor...

Ultimately, the individual is literally thrust into a void: their social rationales fail to account for their experiences and no alternate explanations are satisfactory. During this phase, existential despair is the predominant emotion. The developmental resolution of this phase begins as emergent individual values of the "new" personality increasingly encounter and conflict with the person's previous socialization. The "status quo" explanations for the "way things are," transmitted through education and by the social order collapse under conscious scrutiny. A series of conflicts commonly results as the individual increasingly questions the causes of their reactions within the world at large. The actions of others and the ethics of the prevailing social order become seen as inadequate, wrong or hypocritical. "Positive maladjustment" prevails. For Dabrowski, these crises represent the potential for personal growth as mental health reflects more than social conformity, it involves a careful, personal examination of the world and of one's values leading to the development of an individual and unique personality. In Dabrowski�s theory, personality only emerges when individual values ("what ought to be") find their voice and replace the "what is" of life. Personality is a "self aware, self chosen, self affirmed, and self determined unity of essential individual psychic qualities" (Dabrowski, 1972, p. 301). Mental health is represented by an individual who has carefully and thoughtfully chosen his or her values and ideals in terms of the kind of person he or she ought to try to be. These individual values become hierarchical -- our highest values are our goals, often existing in conflict with lower values that characterize our earlier function and our prevailing social order.

Dabrowski used to say that you must either fall back, move ahead or end negatively (suicide / psychoses).

The transition from level II to level III is a fundamental shift that requires a phenomenal amount of energy. This period is the critical juncture in development as from here one must either progress or regress. This transition is an awkward and complicated idea, for one thing, Dabrowski saw it as a process that could either occur all at once or that could occur incrementally. First and Second Factors are both targets of the conflict in these crises: "Do I follow my instincts (First Factor), my teachings (Second Factor) or my heart (Third Factor)?" The developmental answer is to listen to your heart, transform your instincts into positive features (e.g. motivation) and to resist rote, social answers. This whole developmental process, occurring in the context of disintegration -- a very chaotic period, sweeps you along and as it does, it changes you and your view of life.

Level III describes the vertical conflicts caused by an involuntary perception of the higher versus lower choices in life (because it is involuntary Dabrowski called it spontaneous multilevel disintegration). Dabrowski called this vertical dimension multilevelness. With multilevelness comes a new and powerful type of conflict. Multilevelness is a gradual realization of the "possibility of the higher" (a phrase Dabrowski used frequently) and of the subsequent contrasts between the higher and the lower aspects of life. These vertical comparisons often illustrate the lower, actual behaviour of a person in contrast to higher, imagined ideals and alternative choices. When a person perceives the higher choice, he or she feels that this is obviously the path one ought to follow. When the person's actual behaviour falls short of the ideal, disharmony and a drive to review and reconstruct one's life often follow.

If the person is to achieve Dabrowski�s higher levels, this shift to multilevelness must occur. If a person does not have the developmental potential to move into a multilevel view, then they would fall back from the crises of level II to reintegrate at level I.

In the shift to multilevelness, the "horizontal" (unilevel), stimulus response model of life is replaced by a vertical and hierarchical experience of life. This vertical view influences a person's developing value structure and all events come to be seen in relation to personal ideals. These personal value ideals become a coherent entity -- the personality ideal: an inner vision of how the person wants to live their life and the kind of person one wants to become. As events in life are seen in relation to this multilevel, vertical view, it becomes impossible to support positions that favour the lower course when higher goals can be identified (or imagined).

In level IV the individual takes control of their development. The involuntary spontaneous development of level III is replaced by a deliberate, conscious and self directed review of life from the multilevel perspective. This level marks the emergence of "the third factor," described by Dabrowski as an autonomous factor "of conscious choice (valuation) by which one affirms or rejects certain qualities in oneself and in one's environment" (Dabrowski, 1972, p. 306). The person consciously reviews their existing belief system and tries to replace their lower, automatic views and reactions with carefully thought out, examined and chosen ideals. These "new" values will increasingly be reflected in the person's behaviour. Behaviour becomes less reactive, less automatic, and more deliberate and volitional as behavioural choices increasingly fall under the influence of the person's higher, chosen ideals.

All of these stages of disintegration represent extreme conflict. Traditional therapeutic approaches have been to palliate conflict in an attempt to quickly return the person to the state of "normal" functioning. Dabrowski advanced a more sophisticated approach based on a comprehensive diagnosis. Dabrowski said that half of the therapy process involved a complete diagnosis of a person's developmental potentials, not simply a review of their symptoms. When severe symptoms are seen in people with significant potential, the approach is to encourage the person to "see the crisis through" and to reframe the psychoneurosis in positive terms - hence Dabrowski's 1972 book title "Psychoneurosis is Not an Illness." In cases where developmental potential is low, Dabrowski advocated a palliative approach to crises and a return to the former stability. In people with strong DP, there is transformative potential for suffering - dis-ease causes us to search for "higher level" solutions. In this context, suffering has a positive role in human psychology. It is through our own suffering that we develop empathy for others and understand our own interdependence on others and our mortality. This causes a review of our basic values and, as mentioned above, ideally leads to the development of autonomous values...

The fifth level also displays an integrated and harmonious character, but one vastly different from that at the first level. At this highest level, one's behaviour is guided by conscious, carefully weighed decisions based upon an individualized and chosen hierarchy of personal values. Behaviour conforms to this inner standard of how life "ought" to be lived and thus, little inner conflict arises in one's life.

The Theory of Positive Disintegration has an extremely broad scope and has implications for many areas. One central application is the way that psychology and psychiatry frame crises and disintegration... Rather than trying to eliminate symptoms, they are reframed to yield insight and understanding into life and the person's unique situation...

Dabrowski�s theory describes a way of looking at life, outlining the experience of life through the energies of overexcitability and multilevelness. The theory describes various consequences of this experience, positive disintegration and personality growth among them. In this sense, Dabrowski is often discovered and understood by those who are in the midst of the developmental process. The concepts of multilevelness and overexcitability are often not easy to appreciate by those who do not experience them first hand. The theory is best understood through being lived and through personal introspection of one's experiences and feelings as one goes through the steps of advanced development.

In summary, Dabrowski presents a theory of personality development describing how a small number of individuals will go through a process involving a series of disintegrations and subsequent reintegrations leading to the development of an autonomous personality. This process, which is more detailed than suggested here, involves a fundamental tearing apart of the existing reality function to allow for construction of a reality function and "new coordinating elements" on a new (higher) level (see Dabrowski, 1972, p. 224). In this way, a person can apply conscious self development to transcend their genotype, overcome rote socialization, and to consciously become the authentic human being they choose to be."

I think despair has been my predominant emotion since about 1993.

No suicide or psychosis, though. Can't say that I fell back or moved ahead.

John Boyd wrote as much.

Here is the right essay.

http://www.goalsys.com/books/documents/DESTRUCTION_AND_CREATION.pdf

Kuhn had the same approach, too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Structure_of_Scientific_Revolutions

I guess I realized a long time ago that living up to my potential would make me miserable. I chose happiness instead. I always tried to balance my life, and prevent any one element from consuming too much time and energy. When I was studying engineering, I was also dating, exercising, creating relationships, playing music, reading for enjoyment, etc. I didn't dedicate myself to my studies enough to make straight A's, and I definitely put a precedence on learning the material rather than maintaining a high GPA, so if an assignment didn't seem like it would increase my knowledge, I didn't spend a lot of time on it.

After getting a BS, I got a job. I chose a job that wouldn't consume me. I purposely picked a field I wasn't intensely interested in. I put in my 40 hours, and go home. My fulfillment lies elsewhere. I met the most amazing woman and spent a lot of my time with her. We got married, and started a family.

Now I have thrown balance out the window. Now my kids are the focus of my life. I make every decision with their best interests in mind.

A friend of mine from school went down a different path. He got a phd, and started his own business. I just celebrated my 5 year anniversary, and he's going to get married next year. I have 2 kids, and he's been traveling the world giving lectures. His fiancee isn't younger than him. She doesn't have a lot of child bearing years left. They'll be lucky to have 1 child.

When I compare my life to his, I just hope that he gets to experience the joy of fatherhood like I have.

I know I'm not going to make a huge impact on the world like this, but I don't care. I don't think the world has any right to my potential. The world gets as much as I'm willing to share.

Maybe after my kids leave home, and I have some money saved for retirement I'll think about making my mark. Or maybe I'll just spend that time with friends and family. I'll just have to see how I feel.

Loving your children, spending time with them and making them a priority in your life will leave more of a mark on the world than you think. Your children are your legacy!

My problem was that I was so broken in college that I basically avoided the actual activities of living. I had no interest in the material, but an extreme interest in winning the GPA race. In fact, my only goal was to "win". Anything I learned or experienced was merely a byproduct of the goal of intellectually smashing my competition, and letting them know they had been bested by someone inherently superior, as I had done in high school. I didn't give any thought to "balancing my life" or even given any thought to life being something other than a game to win. Once I realized that I had failed in my goal (a 3.5 or so my first year), my life was pretty much drained of meaning, so I withdrew into my mausoleum and waited patiently for my life to end and the pain of existence to cease. I kept making halfhearted efforts to function, but my life no longer had a mainspring to drive me.

Now, I have children, family, and a stable job, however these are the results of my profound failure in life, not evidence of any kind of success. I never intended to be imprisoned in a simple family life, but here I am.

When I hear of other's successes, it always feels like someone has punched me in the stomach, because it reminds me that my life ended a long time ago.

It's very hard to engage your family when you feel completely ruined and are devoid of any kind of purpose.

Maybe you need to re-examine your definition of success. In all honesty, I don't see a high GPA for its own sake as a particularly worthy goal or a real accomplishment, and certainly not something that you should allow to drain meaning out of your life. I studied very hard during my sophomore year and got a very high GPA. Then, after I'd had some sleep and time to distance myself from things a bit, I decided that it wasn't worth it. The lack of sleep and the emotional roller coaster were too much, and I realized that there was more to life than driving myself mad in pursuit of a high GPA for its own sake.


If your kids are young, you can't be too old to change your life and do something that has meaning for you. Lots of people make changes in their 30s and beyond. But (and this is only my opinion), the only person you should be competing with is yourself. You will always encounter someone who is better than you at something. That's life. I tell my kids, "Even if you win a major marathon, you can be sure that there are kids in eastern Africa who will run faster than you, in bare feet, over rocks, in hundred-degree heat. So don't waste your energy worrying about others when you really need to focus on improving your own performance." There are times when competing is bad for you, and making yourself happy is one of those times.


What would give you purpose in life? Can you find a way to attain your goals? If a career change is difficult for financial reasons, can you start small and do something outside of work for a few hours a week that will make you feel good?

Just wondering: you sound very unhappy. Do you need help from a therapist another neutral person you can talk to honestly?

Hi -

Glad this thread has been helpful for you. Before I read your latest post I sent you a PM. It is still there if you care to read it.

EW

Oh, I had given up on the GPA thing a long time ago. I just didn't have anything to replace it with. Once I realized that I wasn't going to "win" college, I basically gave up on life.

That's how I ended up in law school, since you get still get into a good law school with (relatively) poor grades. What's kind of amusing is that my grades went directly down as college progressed. My first semester was a 3.75, whereas I was actually getting Ds and Fs at the very end.

I don't actually *have* any objectives or goals. In fact, I don't even know "who I am" so to speak nor do I have the faintest idea what I want to go do with myself. And, I'm permanently depressed and angry, although not nearly like I was during the time from about I was about 17 to 26. I never adjusted in any way to the college (or law school) environment.

Actually being forced to be at a job or get fired provided some stability that was lacking when I basically did nothing for all those years.

I'm not sure how therapy would help. I suspect that some sort of physical exercise would probably be more beneficial. That and figuring out how exactly you form adult friendships. I live in my wife's hometown, where I basically know no one.

JonLaw, just sent you a PM. Ignore the terrible subject title - I can rant on for hours in a post, but always get writer's block trying to capture in a single sentence the acres of (possibly/probably unnecessary) words I've written in a post

"The person consciously reviews their existing belief system and tries to replace their lower, automatic views and reactions with carefully thought out, examined and chosen ideals. These "new" values will increasingly be reflected in the person's behaviour. Behaviour becomes less reactive, less automatic, and more deliberate and volitional as behavioural choices increasingly fall under the influence of the person's higher, chosen ideals."

Oh Gee.. I wish this part would hurry up. I feel like I'm trying so hard, but I just keep reverting back to the wrong habits and behaviors. I don't mind being a work in progress, but really, there are just some things I would like to "stick" already.

My latest failure is trying to eat right. I am successful for a week or so at a time, then fall off, then get back on, then fall off. I want to change my life. This is no diet.

At least I am working on my sites more these days...

I'm reading Living with Intensity, but it requires a lot of mental energy for me so I'm saving it for when I have some quiet time to myself to read it. I was so happy when I read about the different levels. I never knew someone else had attempted to put a name to this work in progress path.

I was trying to type my own path, but it was just too long with too many detours, which is typical of myself. EVERYTHING is so interesting to me, I tend to go off on tangents. It's ALL related in my mind, lol!

Here's what I have to say...
1-it's never too late to change. If you are not happy with the situation, but certain things, like the age of your child, for instance, make those changes not possible at the moment, just start making your plan now. That will give you something to focus on when you are having those low moments.

2-whether you work outside the home for money or volunteer, whether you stay home and don't work for any money (that is STILL plenty of work! lol!) or make some money (or even lots of it) working from home...you had the kid(s). They are here. We brought them here and we owe it to them to help them be the best people they can become. Sometimes that means putting some of our wants on the backburner for a while, but you should not have to give up your SELF.

My friends are usually amazed at the number and variety of jobs I have held, especially for someone who wasn't allowed to hold a regular job during HS. When I had DD#1, I was a nurse and had gone back to school to continue that path. I enjoyed it alot, taking care of people and I often took the areas others didn't want, but all I could think about was my baby and how much I missed her. I never thought I would be like that, but there I was. I hadn't been a nurse long enough to consider it a "career" and I don't actually hold any paper degree. Dh and I made the decision together that I would stay home and try to carve something out for myself. I'm not rich, but I'm VERY happy with what I do.

I struggled quite a bit when my girls were younger. DD8 was easier, more patient/easy going and since we decided I would stay home and try to make a career of my own path, I was able to spend a lot of time focusing on her and learning to anitcipate her needs, which made us both very relaxed. DD4.5 was (and continues to be) a highly engaging and attention needing child. She is the kind that you have to explain every step WHILE you are doing it and asks me questions like "Are you making dinner?" when I obviously AM, she just needs to confirm her knowledge I guess. She is still ABSOLUTELY EXHAUSTING, 2 days of preschool (that we are already getting a special price on) is really hurting us financially, but I know it's what we both need. My husband travels OFTEN and sometimes for a month or more at a stretch, and since I work from home, sometimes I just need to be able to think! When she goes to school next fall, I will probably spend the whole day crying from happiness because I will be able to put MORE of myself into my business, even though I know I will have to eventually give it up or hire other people (which I don't look forward to).

Right now, I also get EXTREME fulfillment by being a Girl Scout leader for my DD8. Maybe later, I will get a paid job at Council. Maybe not though. Maybe I don't know my real "potential". Maybe I'm JUST NOW discovering that I should be an advocate for girls or gifted kids.

Or maybe not.

I say "I am ONLY 38", I also have not decided what I want to do when I grow up. Who says you have to chose one thing? People reinvent themselves all the time and you can too! Personally, I'm probably going to live to be 100, so, I figure I have lots of time to try different things...I think author and stand up comic are next on my list

I don't have time to think about it. My son is twice exceptional. His disabilities affect him physically and cause pain. My entire focus needs to be on helping him fulfill his potential so he can have a good life despite the pain.

oh, yes, this is a big issue in my life. I think it is part of the reason I focus so much (too much?)on making sure my DD5 and DD3 have many opportunities and much encouragement. I carry enormous regret and even guilt that I didn't live up to my potential. Sure, I did great in college, went to Harvard, have a graduate degree, etc. but I was suppose to be a superstar poet, and can paint, act, and had talent in math and science. That is a lot on one plate, and what did I do? Have two children late in life very close together and now have basically focused all my energy on their needs. I'm a stay at home mom and spend days in the park talking to other moms. I knew some moms years before they know where I went to school or that I have been published. I'm afraid they will start expecting too much of me now that my brain is
mushy. I read my old poems and research papers and they are so ornate and pulsing with passion, and now I make grocery lists. I am taking a class, but find it hard to concentrate, whereas before children, school was so easy for me. My professor does like my writing and ideas, but I know that my thinking is clouded. I love my children deeply, but wonder if I will ever find myself again and become half of what people expected of me when I was young, cocky, full of answers, showy and quick. Now I am much more modest, slower, unsure, and putting my eggs in the baskets of my little girls who are so beautiful, smart, sweet, creative, and talented. I suppose it is a little sad that I don't see those things in myself anymore... As depressing as that all sounds, I still look ahead and hope to get back to my writing and learning, and also, embrace the mother in me who is such a bigger, better person than the person I was before children.

i know I'm not and i am okay with that. I am happy and I am being stretched. Sure I could have been "more" in terms of how society views me.

But being a mom to 3 exceptional boys and running my own little business makes me happy and keeps me very busy.

So potential or not, I know who I am and I am happy with where I am. For now

Yeah, what she said! Except for the 3 boys...I've got two girls And all those Girl Scouts. The potential to help all those girls become their true selves really touches me!

Not to cross personal boundaries here, but have you discussed these things with a physician? Anemia, low thyroid, sleep apnea and numerous other easily treatable medical problems can cause trouble concentrating and thinking and sap your energy, and they may have no other symptoms. Fatigue and "mushy brain" aren't inevitable results of parenthood...but lots of women develop hypothyroidism or anemia after giving birth and aren't diagnosed for years. Just something to consider.

Hi Aculady, thanks for your concern. True, parenthood does not have to equal plummeting cognitive skills, but my mix of circumstances may be a bit different: I have been a stay at home mom for five years with children very close together who are both sensory seeking with ADHD like symptoms who both appear to be gifted (the youngest has had testing yet). My husband was traveling so much and I had no family to help with babysitting and no time away from my children and have not slept through the night in years due to children waking me, add to this that after the birth of my second child three years ago, my hormones basically went into turmoil (yes, I went to the doctor for this) and I had to make a decision how to treat them weighing the pros and cons. My DD5 is highly gifted verbally with extreme extroversion and I actually think both of us would be happier if she went to school more than a couple hours, but there are not other options right now and the school is educating her so far below her level that more hours would be torture for her so I am doing some home schooling for her, but even that is tough because she sings all her answers in what I call her show tunes voice (which sounds cute, but can be a bit much)can't stop moving,humming, tapping pencils,using fake accents to discuss things,ask questions, and wants to interact with me all 14 hours she is awake and with me if she isn't at school for 2.5 hours.

I try to set up as many opportunities as possible for her to be with other children so she can direct energy towards them, but believe it or not, it isn't always easy to find playmates. She is popular with other students, but we do not have young neighbors so I have to go through their parents to arrange something and little Jane and Johnny are busy with swimming lessons, ballet, karate, baseball, and who knows what else. They also tend to live in neighborhoods with built in playmates so aren't as in need of trucking their kid to another part of town just to play or setting things up in advance. My DD5 does have one good friend and she does come over frequently, but my DD5 is actually frustrated with her since she can be tempermental etc. The more she can be around other children and the more she will have learning activities outside of the home, the better.

My three year old also sleeps very little, is highly active, and has daily inconsolable tantrums. She is sweet and smart too, but when she gets set off, she goes off the deep end easily. I am just riding it out though since I went through this with the older DD and she is better so I see a light at the end of the tunnel.

As I am typing this, my oldest is right by me talking non stop even though I have asked her to wait, and making animal noises. The sun isn't even up yet. THIS is why my mind may not be as clear with children. Prior to children, I didn't hear wild animal noises all day esp. at five in the morning etc. After evaluations, I have been told she is "just gifted, creative, and active" and not ADHD and no longer needs OT. This may be true, but wow, the past years were intense with her and her her little sister is still in the middle of the difficult toddler / preschooler years.

Now that my oldest goes to kindergarten two and a half hours and my three year old is in pre k for a few hours, I am actually starting to feel better. I actually hid (slept where she wouldn't come to me) on my three year old the night before as mean as that felt, so that she was forced to go to my husband in her nightly wakeups because I was so in need of sleep. I had been up since three am for the day for a week straight due to her sleeping issues and was feeling awful. My children require very little sleep, constant interaction / conversation, and never appear tired! I can blame my genetics since I have always been up early, but now with the sleep deprivation and lack of alone time, my brain cannot take all that noise so early and at such a constant rate.

I watch other people's children and most of them seem as though their knobs are set at a much quieter setting so they require so much less from what I can see. I do see kids more out of control and appreciate that my girls do well in structured settings. The listen well and educational "classes" pay attention when read to or reading, and can focus for a long time on drawing or crafts etc. On the up side, one thing that is contributing to my feeling better is that my DD5 has made a huge leap in development so that what looked like ADHD / sensory seeking is mellowing out. She is doing fine in school and thrives on structure. When she is alone she is suddenly so much more mature. Her gross motor skills and self care are so much better too. She is evening out in some ways and that will allow me to clear my head. There is a way to go though that is for sure. My three year old has always been advanced with self help and motor skills and not as intense, so even though she is three, she is becoming more manageable so I predict my brain mush may lessen over the coming years.

I made decisions to put some of my needs on hold for my children and am not resentful. I'm just trying to figure out how to get back to some of my needs now that they are a little older. I had no intention of writing all this, but so be it.

To the moms of young ones... Really to everything there is a season. It will get better. I would encourage you to continue to carve out some niche of learning or intellectual engagement. It doesn't have to be an all or nothing thing in your life, but it is really a good and healthy thing for kids to see that mom has something else to focus on besides them. Even if it is "just a minute until I finish knitting this row" or "I'll help you as soon as I finish this page" it is not a bad thing for kids to see you model being an engaged person who is learning something new.

Also, I think it is reasonable to start to think of an end point. Where I get concerned is when the sole focus on kids drags into the preteen and teen years. If mom feels she can't focus on anything else, ever, that is not sustainable or healthy. At a certain point that can feel like a burden for a kid too. How is a child supposed to process that they are such a burden that mom can no longer even think of herself for a minute?

I agree 100%, Pass. I just wish I had started carving out my time / space sooner, but they are 3 and 5 and I have been taking classes for a year now and often say, "mommy needs to finish my book" or "finish this paper" so they can see that I have my own interests. Little by little,I do see things getting better and also encourage all moms to make time for themselves, take breaks, and not cater to their child's every whim.

TwinkleToes,
Glad to hear that physical issues aren't a concern. I remember being the parent of a "high-maintenance" under-5 with no other children in the area well! The sleep deprivation alone fried my brain to a crisp, without even mentioning the effect of constant monologuing and questioning. I can only imagine what you have been going through with two under the age of 5. The good news is that it gets better (provided that you stop having more children, lol.) There will come a time when you can count on 8 solid hours of sleep in a row on multiple nights during the week, and you will be amazed at the difference it makes in your patience and your ability to think.

And remember, should you be even a little bit tempted to feel guilty about taking time for yourself when your children want you, that you need to take care of yourself to be able to be the kind of mother you want to be for your children, and that learning to take turns, not interrupt, and delay gratification are all very valuable lessons that your children need to learn anyway...


Hang in there.

TwinkleToes,
Good that things are improving and they will keep getting better. I can so relate to Aculady's comments about the power of sleep. You feel like a genius when you finally start getting it regularly.

Oh TwinkleToes, That sounds hard. Parts of your post sounded SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO familiar! I think that early children phase is, or can be, really, really tricky for people who are used to using their brains. I remember wailing to DH at one point "I miss my brain so much!" Yeah, I was probably pretty sleep deprived at the time...