on almost a daily bases she gets very angry with her Father and I but she refused to talk about it much and really keeps her emotions in sometimes its easy to get her out of this negative/angry state but sometimes when she actually listens/talks to me about it we end up talking for over an hour while i explain some what complex reasoning as to why things are the way they are...

EXAMPLE:: yesterday she wouldn't get out of the dining room while i was rearranging/cleaning i asked nicely she wouldn't listen so i got a bit more angry sounding then made her go sit on the living room couch (time out) and she got so upset she came back into the dinning room and angrily told me to "get out" over and over i asked her where she expected me to go and she just said "i dont care just get out" (she was very emotional) so i said fine and walked out of the front door and then came back in a minute later and she said "what do you want?? leave me alone"
i felt that i couldn't just let her hide alone and hurt with her unresolved feelings (she tries to hide and be alone to just cry when she is like that) so i tried to pick her up and hold her/comfort her on the couch she kicked and struggled so i let her go and started trying to talk/reason with her...

so i then explained why she has to listen to her parents and what have you she wouldn't listen till i explained age difference i showed her 5 fingers and said this is how old you are then i showed her how old i am and explained how much longer iv been alive and then i explained that her grandma knows even more then me and showed her how old grandma is (she finally started calming and listening) she expressed that she thought that growing up men getting your own way and doing whatever you want so then we had to talk about how no one always gets what they want (especially not adults) and we had to blend in safety and how we as parents only have her best interest at heart and that while she isn't old enough (and lacks the experience) to make certain decisions that there are many things she has grown old enough to do and then she proceeded to ask if she could use an butter knife to cut up her apple (shes never been allowed to do this before) and i told her yes i think you may have grown old enough to do that and i gave her a really dull butter knife and let her do it

and after all of this she was satisfied and understood

however sometimes i just feel frustrated like I'm her mother she should obey and i shouldn't have to give an hour long explanation to my 5yr old

she has expressed before that she gets thoughts in her head and she cant explain them or get them to go away and that that is way she wont talk to us about them....

Does anyone else have this problem??

It sounds as though she's asking to be involved and trusted more. I was struck by this:
because although I've stopped short of the full Continuum Concept approach, my DS6 has been using a sharp kitchen knife to cut up fruit since he was 3 and these days I don't even feel the need to supervise him while he does it. Could you be being over-protective? Could your DD have helped you arrange and clean, rather than being sent out?

ETA: I'm sorry if this sounds critical; I don't mean it that way and I know how scary it is to let young children do things that seem dangerous! But fwiw, it's actually much easier to be safe with a sharp knife than a blunt one, because you don't have to press so hard.

I agree. Personally, I think kids have just as much right to be treated with dignity and to have their opinions and decisions treated with respect as adults. Yes, of course you know more than she does, about many things. But imagine how you would feel if someone who knew more than you tried to tell you that you had to blindly obey them--you would be totally irked. Of course I'm not saying that you should not make any decisions for your child. But it's perfectly natural for your child to be frustrated and upset when you boss her around and don't explain your reasons.

I think it is also perfectly natural for her to be angry at you for telling her to get out of the room, without telling her why. Of course she came back in and told you to get out! She's learning her behavior from you.

I would also respect her decision to be alone to cry and work through her feelings if that's what she wants. Some kids want to be held, or need to be held, but many want privacy to calm down. You can always talk about it after she is calm.

I've never had your problem, but I've had your daughter's.

First, let me say that you are ABSOLUTELY on the right path with showing willingness to explain yourself and discuss your decisions and how they make your daughter (and you) feel. I'm not a parent, but as a teacher and a person I find myself on the verge of crying and/or screaming in frustration every time I hear someone suggest that any adult has the right to expect a child to obey them without question. To expect such a thing is both demeaning (since it suggests children are not thinking, feeling people in their own right) and incredibly demanding (since such sacrifice of one's own free will runs counter to all instinct).

It's obvious and right that a child who feels they're being treated that way will rebel. In the average parent-child relationship, if this happens at all, it's during the teenage years, but with gifted kids, it can strike at any time, because their sense of self, their moral decision-making, and their understanding of relationships develop at unpredictable times and rates. It started with me around age nine, and I fought a continuous battle with my mother for the next seven years because she was unshakable in her belief that "a parent shouldn't have to explain herself". It sounds like the problem might be even worse for your DD than it was for me, because as you've related, her mind is running ahead of her language and she's got thoughts she can't express. At least I could form my arguments and get them out of my mouth. But maybe if you keep talking to her the way you did in this incident, you'll help her develop her ability to talk about concepts like this.

My rule for dealing with my kindergarteners is this: whatever the issue is, talk to them about it, and assume they will be able to understand unless they prove otherwise (in which case, it's "one of those things you have to do for now, but we can talk about it again"). Be prepared for bargaining and attempts to out-logic you, and be willing to step down if the logic turns out to be better than yours.

I also second no5no5's advice to let her be alone if she wants to be. And as for the knife, ColinsMum is right - for something like an apple, I would let her use a sharp knife because it's easier. Alternatively you could let her use the dull knife for cutting softer things (butter, cheese, muffins) and "graduate" her to sharper knives and tougher foods when she proves she can control the dull knife.

I think there is a difference between giving a child the courtesy of explaining WHY they are being requested to do something and spending an hour justify yourself after the fact (but sometimes you will have to do this). I don't think giving a child a reason EVERY time you tell them to do something makes you weak. I think it shows respect for them and makes them a partner in achieving goals. It also makes them more likely to do what you want when you are not around and helps them develop good judgment. It also helps them recognize the natural consequences (realized or not ) of NOT doing as you tell them.


Ideally, you would let her help you or explain where she needs to be so as not to be in your way. If you really need her in another room because you have guests coming in 20 minutes or something, then tell her that.

It looks like you have gotten a lot of sound advice. I just wanted to offer a suggestion of what I do with the why questions. My daughter loves to ask why and demand a reasonable explanation. It didn't take me long to get into the habit of answering the why before she asked the question and now it is part of my habits. IE. If I was in the dining room and my DD came in and I was concerned for her safety I would ask that she leave the room but making sure I give her the reason. "DD please don't come in here right now. Mommy is moving the furniture and it could fall and hurt you. Just for now, go into the living room and when I'm done moving this I will let you know." Now this isn't to say that she doesn't get stubborn or choose to ignore the information but I repeat myself one more time if that is the case and if she stays on the path of Why my next move is to inform her that I took the time to explain it all and she needs to take the time to listen. I ask her to tell the answer and when she does ... she accepts it. Something magical happens as she explains it back to me ... acceptance.

Also ... my DD was never the typical toddler with tantrums but when she started having them I came to realize she had them for a reason. We were not paying attention to her demands for more independence. When we rectified this the tantrums stopped immediately. Now that she is 3 1/2 she doesn't have tantrums but more arguments with us. She has great logic too but I have come to discover that I can sit down with her and have great conversations and she will definitely point out things she feels is unfair and why. If she is valid I will 100% agree with her and we make agreements to change it. I totally agree that children should have a say and parents should listen but I also think it can quickly get out of hand if the parents take it to the level of just giving in to the child. I always tell my child that I am open to discussion but she has to be able to argue her point and you would think a 3 1/2 year old wouldn't understand that but she does and has since she was 2. The big difference now is the complexity of her argument.

thank you all for your responses i do feel a bit attacked but i also realize that you are all well meaning...

as far as trying to tell her why? it gets a bit confusing where she is concerned because often when you explain why to her she does argue and say she doesn't want to do it that way then either i end up having to exert some sort of authority and say well this is the way we are doing it or i end up saying okay well try it your way and when her way doesn't work then she gets even more upset she is a perfectionist and blames herself for the failure and it certainly doesn't help matters that she then sees that i was right leaving her with a bruised ego...

Sometimes as i explained earlier (and thankfully this is becoming more common) i can get her to talk about it but with her explanations are never easy because without a complete understanding of every part of a situation she refuses to except what im telling her and no i dont force her to talk for an hour (more like she insists i explain in full)

as far as leaving her alone you would have to understand the extent of how upset she gets and the way she isolates herself i have found that leaving her to "deal with it on her own" just causes her distance her self and to not trust me to be able to help her she just turned 5yrs. old feb. 9th and she is already very strongly challenging authority she has already come to realize that parents dont know everything and that she does not have to do what we say and we cant always make her (something i didn't realize till i was a teen) she is aware that i can give her time out till the cows come home but i cant force her to do what i want her to she wants to know why "mommy always gets what she wants" (meaning i tell her "clean up" and then get what i want or i tell her "go to bed" and then get my way)

last thing is it has been one of the hardest most heart breaking things to have a 4-5yr old who is experiencing such complex feelings because i never expected this i just wish i could hold her comfort her and take away all her pain and worries
after all shes only 5yrs old i should be able to kiss the boo boos and make them all better still at this age right?

i am also aware that in order for a child to feel safe they need their parents to be in control and i am trying to gain the control back by listening/talking with her but still insisting in most instances that she do what she is told its just a struggle even getting her to understand why she must listen to her parents

talking to her in an adult fashion and trying my best to understand her side and leading her to explain her side seems to be helping so i think i will work on that

also im sorry but i dont agree with giving sharp knives to children but i do allow her to have many other chances to help out and she even was helping clean in the dining room till i needed her to move out of the room so i could move things around a bit i did tell her why but she didn't think my reason justified her having to leave the room so she sat in the dinning room chair and refused to move
also i know i shouldn't have walked outside but i was very upset at her behavior and the lack of control i had over the situation and needed to calm down and breath for a minute everything is a battle with her and while she thinks she is ssssooooo big she is my 5yr old baby and having a daily battle of wills with her is very hard on me...

anyways id like to thank you all again.. and now that you have heard more of an explanation if you have any more ideas or insight i would appreciate any help you have...

zhian -

i wanted to thank you for your response it was very helpfull in fact it made me cry a little because your post described exactly what i have suspected is going on with my daughter for a while now and as a mother i love her with all my heart and only want what is best for her so watching her struggle inside with her complex feeling and emotions and having daily battles with the little girl i love soooo much is really hard

i cry for my daughter because all that she is facing at only 5yrs old and i as her mother feel so so helpless i just wish i could take it all off her little tiny shoulders one minute shes a healthy happy 5yr. old and the next minute you realise she has all these complex things going on in her head that she isnt even sure how to tell you about or if she can tell you about them she says daily "i just cant/dont want to talk about it" and "just leave me alone" it really is like having a teenager and as a parent who was expecting a "normal" 5yr. old I have been given a 5yr old teenager and am just learning how to care for her...

You're very welcome. Parenting a gifted child can be a very confusing enterprise - almost as confusing as being one - so it's nice being able to help someone make a little more sense of it all (I'm making counselling and social/emotional characteristics of gifted kids a big part of my masters program for that reason).

The good news, you have to realize, is that no matter how difficult it is for both of you that your DD right now has to deal with having a teenager's sense of rights and relationships and a much younger child's language and body, these things will even out as she gets older and as long as you approach her with a minimum of preconceptions and a maximum of adaptability, she's going to grow into a very thoughtful and respectful person. Gifted children often have a more developed awareness of themselves and others, greater empathy and sensitivity, and a stronger devotion to honesty, justice, and moral behavior than average kids, and it sounds like your DD is headed that way.

yes, I have similar experiences, but I would never ever ever leave the room after she commanded it because that would teach her that she is the one in control. I do not want to dominate my child, but boy oh boy she sure is not going to dominate me (and yes she tries every single bossy day of her life!).

My DD likes explanations too, but I try to keep them short otherwise a little tantrum / outburst would be reinforced by all that talking time and attention so her lesson would be: if I act defiant when my mom asks for space, I actually win because she will give me one on one talk time. I think I will try that again (not that she thinks that consciously about it).

I need time alone because I am a stay at home mom with them all day every day and I do tell them to back off because I need private time to use the bathroom or just catch my breath. I always ask nicely at first, but if it doesn't work, I will get very firm about it. I am not their ever available slave. I have had to train them to be able to do that over a long period and it doesn't always work, but did find that as I became more authoritarian, the more she tried to mimic that behavior. It is hard when your child is very strong willed. I tend to talk about my needing time alone, or privacy, or space and it is a good lesson for them to see a mother having boundaries so they can have their own when then need them.

I often need to explain to her why I need her to do something, and not just expect her to "obey" but I try to keep it brief and there are times I expect her to just give me space if I need it, so if she asks someone to stay away, not hug or kiss her, etc. we make sure to respect her need for boundaries.

Here is an example about her needing explanation: we tried many ways to get her to give up a pacifier which she kept until much older than expected, and nothing worked until I realized she was starting to develop an overbite. I showed her her mouth and explained why we needed to give it up (the overbite) and she threw it away that day and never touched it again whereas talk of "paci fairies" etc. was useless. She had to know for herself why to do or not do something.

Two useful books are The Kazdin Method and anything related to NHA.

Sorry about that. I probably did sound harsh, but I didn't say anything to you that I haven't said to myself a hundred times.

One thing that has helped us is having specific areas of control. In our family, we each make decisions about our own bodies and about the objects that belong to us. In addition, we each have a job and make decisions about our jobs. My job is keeping DD safe. DH's job is working out of the home. DD's job is having fun & learning things.

So if I have made a decision that is about safety, I explain it briefly. If DD objects and I overrule her objection, I say that it is my decision because it is a safety issue and safety is my job. She respects that. Of course that means that I also have to respect her decisions about her areas of control--including sitting & watching as she trims all the fur off of all of her stuffed animals. I can object, but it is her decision in the end, and she'll tell me that. And I'll respect it.

I have some similar behavioral problems as well with my almost 5 yr. old daughter.

She seems to desire to actively engage in argumentative discussion, she negotiates like a little lawyer and does try to circumvent authority.

I give her choices regarding her behavior. I ask her if negotiating with me will make me change my mind...she answers no because she already knows the answer. So then I will tell her that she might as well stop unless she wants to get into trouble. I will also give her an if/then scenario. If you choose to continue with this behavior, this will happen...what is your choice? You have to be careful how many warnings you give. If you engage them in the argument, they will continue it because it provides them with the control they so often desire.

The problem I think...with my daughter anyway...is that she has so much "adult-like" information in her head, but seeing that she is not even 5 yet...emotionally...it's too much for her to handle so she acts out. She speaks like an adult and often times I do think my expectations of her are too high...which is unfortunately what happened when my husband and I were both children as we were labeled gifted.

At any rate...though I often explain things...if she asks me the same question I tell her I have already told her my answer and if she wasn't listening to me then it's not my problem. That usually stops the questioning. I don't often say "because I told you so", but sometimes I do. She needs to understand who is in charge.

It's funny because this morning actually she brought down her baby doll and said to me..."Mom, I'm the boss of my baby." LOL and I said, "Yes honey you are...does she listen to you?" And she said..."yes, she has to."

I wish you the best. Set up some consistent boundaries because children with such a high intelligent will strive to be in control moreso I think than what is typical. Explanations are fine but continued explanations about the same thing can be avoided and I would highly recommend that the next time she tells you to leave, that you take the reins and make sure she realizes that she cannot talk to you like that. My method of discipline often is utilizing time outs or taking away privledges. It's hard to be consistent but it's imperative.

I hope this helps some.

Your daughter sounds so much like mine. DD 3.9 does this with her 'babies' be it a doll or her prized stuffed animals.

And I handle the interrogation the same way. Did you not hear my response? Even ask her to repeat it and that is when she finally accepts the answer. (Most of the time and I think more so because she knows I'm not budging.) We also do timeouts and taking away privileges but are finding we use timeouts less and less. Does the intensity of the interrogation go up as they get older? If it does ... I really have my hands full.

My daughter's behavior...well frankly...was atrocious at 3...GOOD LORD I mean seriously! It has lessened now that she is closer to 5 however her negotiations are more sophisticated and she can be quite manipulative. I mean when she was 3, we were in a veterinary's waiting room and had some McDonalds. So I told her to throw it away in the garbage can across the room. She went over there and stopped by the man sitting next to the garbage can and asked him to throw it away...guess what he did? The 1st 2 guesses don't count...needless to say yes, my daughter can get adults to do what she wants them to do quite often which enables and can exacerbate her behavior.

Sometimes my daughter acts like 30, and other times she acts like she's 2. When she's acting like she's 2, I have to stand my ground. I will ask her if throwing her little temper tantrum will get her what she wants...she typically stops and says "no"...again she knows the rule...she just keeps hoping that I'll turn stupid I guess. :o)

Thank you very much for sharing your story and all the great responses. My nearly 5 year old son sometimes has tantrums, too that start with him not being to exert his control. I tend to explain my reasoning to him - if his behavior continues I tend to give the consequence of taking away privileges. That often helps stop the tantrum very quickly. Another thing that we have noticed is that he tends to be more in tantrum mood if he has not eaten enough. He tends to eat a lot and thus sometimes it does not seem to be apparent that this could be the reason but often the tantrum subsides as soon as he has some more food.

I just saw this post and it sounds like my DS5. He gets very angry over the smallest (to me) things. I'm glad I'm not alone (however, I do feel for you).

We ended up taking him to a child psychologist because things got so bad that it was just constant worry and yelling and battle of wills. Turns out he has mild oppositional defiant disorder along with being gifted and mild adhd....... But we're trying a new "reward system" that's worked (so far) great for he and his 7yo sister...

Good luck with everything - sounds like you have some great advice here.

What about respect for the father or other family member who traded an hour of their life at work so she could have nice things at the house? �(more than 1hr. for some toys.). I would be willing to buy a bear at the yard sale for that purpose if she asked, but wouldn't respect spontaneous destruction of property just for something to do. �

Faith, hope, and love. �This is a strictly by the book correct response to your situation. �This is NOT the voice of experience talking. �I would try to talk with her when times are good and say, "I know you and I are very close. �When you feel like I'm leaving you out of something that you're not included in you might feel angry, hurt, or frustrated. �When I tell you "no" about something you have two choices�
A)do something else�
B)say how you feel using a friendly voice
A nice voice is an "inside" voice-not loud like you might use outside, angry, or whining. �Decide if you need to talk about how you feel. �Decide who you want to tell your feelings to. �Decide when would be a good time to ask (for example, not when the person is busy). Say to that person "I need to talk" using a nice voice and make sure you use a friendly look. �(demonstrate for her aggressive, angry, friendly, and relaxed facial expressions and body postures). �Talking about it doesn't always mean you get your way, but it almost always will make you feel better just to be able to tell someone how you feel about it. �This is not easy to learn how to do, but I know you can do it. �Dealing with your feelings, dealing with rejection or disappointment, talking about your feelings calmly, these are very grown up things. �But if you can learn how to do these things now while you're young it will make your whole life better and easier from now on. �I'd like to help you work on it. �It will take time. �But it's worth working on it in the long run." http://www.nurturedheart.com/index.php/parenting-articles/141-5-things-every-parent-should-know

When you give someone a gift, you don't get to decide how they use it. You can express the purpose for which you intended it, but if the recipient chooses to use it for another purpose, that's their decision. Sometimes my MIL (who is an compulsive shopper) gives me gifts that I just throw away. I don't feel compelled by my respect for her to keep every single piece of garbage that she gives me. I don't see any reason a child should not have the same autonomy over her possessions that an adult has. Kids need to be trusted to make their own decisions, even if they sometimes make what we'd consider to be the wrong ones.

If it makes you feel any better, only one of her stuffed animals was ruined by this process (though nearly all of them have much shorter hair at this point) and that was a 30-year-old thrift-store plush care bear. And she got hours of entertainment value, plus a lot of great practice using scissors.

What strikes me in the story. You tell her to get out of the room. She's hurt and responds by telling you to get out. That says to me that whatever the reasonable intent in telling her to get out of the room she heard it as a rejection and she followed your modeling to the same behavior.

I can guarantee it won't work 100% of the time, but my suggestion would be to focus on giving her positive roles and working with her in advance about transitions...

So, in the dining room example, I would suggest involving her in the planning of the job. What parts can she do, what parts can you do, what will be your plan to celebrate when the job is all done? Could she go in the next room and help pick out the cleaning music? Would it be possible to set the timer for ten minutes for the part of the job you have to do alone and while you are working on that part could she get the dollhouse set up so you can celebrate your hard work with some fun time playing? Could you break down the job into five distinct phases and celebrate finishing each phase with a cheer? Could she be allowed to do something particularly exciting or challenging as our helper (technology like the dustbuster has been appealing here).

This sort of approach has worked well for our family for a few reasons. First, it appeals to the child's natural desire to be included and develop responsibility. Second, it keeps us in a positive place where we feel like we are working as a team. Third, I rarely have to say anything I don't later want to hear coming back out of my child's mouth. If I had to say "you go in the other room and leave me alone" I know I'd be hearing that back later. I don't mind hearing back "hey let's make put on the music and clean this will be fun" back later. What we model we hear back later.

And, really ruined is very much in the eye of the beholder. I'm quite certain my Barbies were actually improved when I gave them pixie cuts and tattoos.

Just wanted to offer a possible idea regarding her wanting to be alone. I wonder if you could quietly say to her, "I'm going to give you some time alone, but I'm going to be coming back to check on you every few minutes or so because I love you, and when you are ready, I'd like to help you".

You can determine how many minutes based on your knowledge of your daughter and what you can handle. If you wait too long for your own comfort, it will probably raise your anxiety (it would raise mine!) and make it harder to do the next step calmly.

When it's time to check on her, poke your head back in and say as quietly and neutrally as you can, "I'm just checking in to see if you would like some company yet". If she says no, or doesn't respond, then say in the same neutral tone, "ok, I'll check back again in a little while".

By keeping your tone neutral (rather than hurt/upset) you are establishing that there is a calm, caring adult who is ultimately in charge. When I say "being in charge", I'm not talking about establishing power, it's about establishing certainty/safety. As you voiced in one of your posts, you want her to know that she can trust and depend on you. If you are able to be the calm in the center of her storm (not an easy task) then she will know that there is a safety net when she is ready for it.

The hardest part for you if you try this, will probably be walking back out the door each time without reacting. However, if your response becomes predictable and feels non-judgemental and caring to her, she may be able to start letting you help her sooner in the process.

Another thought is, if this seems like an approach that works well for both of you, you could talk about a mid-way signal. Maybe she could hang a sock on her doorknob, or set a teddy bear in a particular place if she wants to let you know that she is ready for you to be in the room but not yet ready for you to come too close or to interact with her. The agreed upon signal could mean that when you check on her you go and sit somewhere in her room where you are nearby. When I use this approach I bring a book or something else to do so that I'm "there" without being obtrusive or invasive.

I really feel for you--it's emotionally exhausting to support someone who is really upset, and doubly so when they make it difficult to help. I hope you know that your daughter is lucky to have you. It's easy to see from your posts that you are a loving parent who is willing to go the extra mile to help your daughter. Sometimes it's easy to lose sight of what we are doing well when we are frustrated or not immediately effective with what we try. Really though, it's the loving and the continually trying that makes the difference in our childrens' lives.

You've gotten lots of great advice.

My family recently read "Raising your spirited child" by Mary Sheedy Kurcinka. It helped us a great deal.

I would say that the largest message in the book is that some of the frustrating behaviors of childhood are actually strengths in adulthood. It's important for us to think about that and encouraging the positive portions of the behaviors (wanting to understand) while also encouraging the behavior we need now. "In a few minutes I'm going to need to move this piece of furniture. I don't want you to get hurt. Can you think of places to stand so you'll be out of danger?"

She goes through a series of temperaments that she thinks increase spirit. I think that many of them apply to gifted kids (and often apply earlier than in the general population). She also asks you to consider your own (and partner's) temperaments as well. i.e. Two people who have problems adapting to change can easily set each other off unless they work hard to avoid it.

We were recommended this book when our daughter was almost 2 (by her Montessori teacher). I wish I had read it then.