Don't get me wrong, I am still seeking out the best opportunities for my DD3, and totally support gifted education, but my point is I tend to worry so much about doing the right thing with my young daughter and that somehow I will screw things up if she doesn't get into a gifted program, but my parents were uneducated and did nothing for me and I went to terrible public schools and yet was able to get into Wellesley, Harvard, and am in MENSA. I am not bragging; I am trying to put things into perspective. I think things could have been better for me in school--I even dropped out of high school--but because the raw ability was there I will still able to go to the schools I selected and my lowest grade was an A- so even if my DD3 doesn't get special services etc. things may be just fine for her academically /socially;-) Honestly, I do think things would have gone better if I had been in a different environment, but I wanted to point out that if your child is highly intelligent, there will be plenty of academic options for him / her down the road. I think that it may be harder for PROFOUNDLY gifted children.

I think now is a different time in education. The situation is worst becuase of no child left behind and budget cuts. School is geared toward the lower 2/3 of the class. College has also changed in that kids are taking more years of schooling going for more Masters to be competitive. I'm certainly not a expert so maybe someone can confirm this. I would like to hear others opinions on this.

I also think much of the situation depends on a child's indivual personality, needs and level of giftedness. For my children, I see the lacking areas as hurting them and I'm going to do what I can to challenge them and try to renew their love of learning that school is not promoting. DD6 loves to go to free library and nature classes. DD9 did a free lego robotics class and chess club last summer.

People have overcome all sorts of obstacles, but that doesn't mean that all people can overcome them, or that we, as parents, should not try to remove them. Yes, of course, all we can do is our best. And I get that hearing anecdotes about gifted kids who do fine without accommodation may be encouraging. But for me, it seems like a pretty hollow argument. After all, my lowest grade was an F. Raw ability isn't going to get you anywhere if you're so angry at the world that you refuse to apply it.

My father did a lot, but not as much as he probably could have, and my mother was actually an actively negative influence on my academic career. Most of my teachers were kind and understanding but unhelpful, and some were the nightmare kind we read about on these boards all too often. I went to Cornell University at the age of 16 and had two bachelor's degrees when I was 21. But "I came out of it okay" isn't enough to erase the fact that spent years bored out of my skull, it isn't enough to make up for all the intellectual peers I never had, and it certainly isn't enough to convince me that the mistakes my mother and my teachers made with me don't matter. Children deserve to be happy and fulfilled while they're still children.

One more thought...We all should do what we can and keep trying but there can be limits. I'm not going to go bankrupt so my kids can get to a better school.

If we try our best to supplement, they know we care and understand, even if it's not perfect it can be OK.

I think we came from a generation of parents who did NOTHING, and many of us had good outcomes. BUT times have changed, continue to change, & in fact things were starting to change back in the late 70s & 80s. Just look at NCLB testing and it's importance in public schools. When we were in school, we took a test on one day--not for 2 weeks, like my kid's elementary school does. When I was in a gifted magnet high school, 2 girls for the first time took a course at the college...now our state legislature mandates that every kid take a college class or an online class.

I do think it's possible to do nothing and have successful kids. But research has also shown that PG & HG kids have a higher rate of depression, suicide, high school drop out, underachievement, substance abuse, etc. One thing that helps them be successful is to challenge them, accelerated them, grade skip, etc. Recently I talked to the mayor of my town who didn't understand why physicians keep moving away because of the schools here--he said, "my kids went to school here, and they're fine". I told him, "things have changed".

I think you have a point that gifted kids can do just fine without parental help, but I also believe that many of them can and do fall through the cracks. I have read that many gifted kids do end up dropping out of high school and I unsure how many manage to find their way back into school.

I also know that my dear uncle in the 1970's struggled with school and did not want to go at all since he was profoundly gifted. They did not have the options that they do now. He did receive some home bound instruction, but I doubt the adequacy of that. I think he would have loved traditional home schooling or the public cyber school option that is available to my ds. I know that I would have loved it as well .

I also think that at least in my neck of the woods, gifted education in the elementary public schools is practically non-existent. I cannot speak of middle and high school, but I imagine it is also inadequate.

I definitely do think it is worth doing something for gifted kids. I know that my ds is currently receiving the kind of education that I would have loved to receive via a public cyber school

My underachieving working class parents did nothing, and I nevertheless went on to grad school and law school--only to wind up maddeningly underemployed in a job I absolutely hate. My work makes me feel every bit as bored, trapped, depressed and isolated as I felt in the first grade while watching everyone else learn to read, so this post doesn't give me much comfort.

I agree with onthegomom that personality needs to be taken into consideration. In my case, I was a born perfectionist who was self-motivated to get As on every exam, graduate from law school with honors, etc., but because good grades came so easily to me, school was merely a way of documenting my intelligence, rather than developing it. I never learned to deal with challenge, take risks (intellectual or otherwise), or truly stretch myself, and I consequently missed the boat repeatedly once I entered the work world. I'm trying to correct some of this now, but it's hard when you've got a house and a kid and the economy sucks.

Knowing my son to be a perfectionist as well, I am determined to see that he's constantly challenged in school and keep those easy As far out of his reach. If that means paying for private school, I will as long as I can. At least all those letters after my name have been good for that much!

One example does not a conclusion make.

I wanted to add that I wasn't profoundly gifted and for those kids, they might NOT do well when given nothing. I do agree with you and for what it is worth, I am trying to find the best options for my daughter, but I was just trying to put it into perspective.

I actually agree with everyone for the most part. I am totally in support of gifted education, wish I had had more offered to me and am seeking out things for my DD. Remember I dropped out so it wasn't all rosy. I was actually just trying to calm my worries down after finding out how little there is available for my child in my state and know that even the minimum amount I will do will be much more than what I had, but that doesn't mean I don't want her to have amazing opportunites.

I really like this. Mind if I borrow it? Your observations reminded me that I miss my undergrad liberal arts education. Specifically, I miss living in the land big ideas and thinking about discipline connectivity. Law school is a different animal.

Wish I could take credit for it! I read something along these lines in Carol Dweck's work, and it really hit home for me.

Having the raw ability doesn't always mean a person will know how to fully utilize it. Looking back, I probably could have fallen into a 'gifted' category in school. There were no options for early graduation, despite taking AP classes, and having far more than enough credits to graduate. I was so tired of school, that my senior year I took the class that enabled me to leave early to go to work, just so I could get out of school (and not have to provide a note from my 'parents' )

I tried college, but hated it. I was ill-prepared, wasn't adept at actually studying, and wasn't really motivated to do even more schooling. Fortunately, I got in on the ground floor of a great job that I was able to really grow into - with hard work and no degree. I ended up working alongside and even leading some degreed folks. It was something I enjoyed and something that came naturally, so higher education wasn't an absolute necessity for me.

All that being said, I realize how truly fortunate I was that things fell into place, but I wouldn't wish it for my son. I want better for him - and by better, I mean helping him to realize that learning doesn't have to be miserable. (I love to learn, I just hate school.) Things may be just fine for my DS, only time will tell. However, if my situation is any indicator (and DS seems to have some of the same feelings about school that I now realize I did), it doesn't look good for him. I'm not so worried about him being in a great GT program as I am about making sure that the spark isn't extinguished.

I do understand what you're saying and I'm sure it's accurate for alot of people, but there may be just as many for which it won't prove true. Just my thoughts.

I realized what you were doing and I think we all have to take a step back sometimes and look at the bigger picture which is what you were doing. But this said ... I think your example shows differences in personality. You were/are a driven person who looked for goals and went for them. This is something that can't be taught but it is something that if given the chance in the early years, the gifted child might build the drive when given the opportunity instead of constantly living in a situation were mediocrity is acceptable.

Facts: The majority of those who make significant contributions to humanity are above average intelligence while the HG+ are high risk for dropping out, drugs, and suicide.

Hi TwinkleToes -

I think you struck a nerve.

Just wanted to highlight (again) your reason for the original post. Sorry to hear that there is not much formally available in your state.

Hopefully, you will be able to piece together some workable solutions. This board is full of parents who have tried a lot of different options to find the right educational situation for their kids. you will have many great ideas to choose from as you start your advocacy journey. cheers!

"He is a delightful young man who challenges us all to consider different ways of assisting him to enjoy striving to work toward his potential level of giftedness".

I guess thats what its all about, nuturing the potential level of giftedness.

That's heartbreaking and dare I say immoral.

I'm actually a little embarassed that I shared all this now. It was a little cathartic though.

Actually, I got into a lot of trouble at school for talking too much, skipping classes, etc. Fortunately,
I was socially adept, popular, good at sports etc. so fit in for the most part. This all changed in high school. I started skipping school and dropped out and was probably seen as a little strange. I wrote, acted, painted, and had poetry published, became depressed, was plagued by the ills of the world, was overly sensitive, and no longer fit in at all. I did love to read and read and read and write and write and write and was driven from within in those areas even if I couldn't stand sitting through most classes.

It is amazing that decent schools would take me after all that, but my scores were so high, my writing strong, and teachers said things like "she has the most ability I have encountered in 30 years" (not bragging. I am actually mystified by that statement and imagine they are talking about someone else)so they let me in and it was easy even though I had basically skipped high school completely.

Is this a success story--yes or no? My entire educational life was a wasteland before college and my IQ was "only" hovering around 145 (If the testing was accurate. Other times testing had been done and I was never told the score). What about children MUCH brighter who were less extroverted on the surface and who had a harder time navigating the social waters at school?I do feel for those kids and parents.

College was a better experience both for undergrad and grad and I loved talking with my professors, but should I have had to wait that long to have a truly great discussion in an academic setting?

My goal on here is to find ways for my daughter(s) to have a better experience in school. Maybe they will be fine, but they are both blessed / cursed with plenty of spirit, high intelligence, and strong wills.

So, the more we discuss how things turned out "just fine" for me the more I realize that they were fairly dismal for a long, long time, and I still do not feel I used my gifts in a successful way, and I am hoping my children have a better experience.

Hey Cym,
Do you have research references for this? I've heard the opposite, but in a vauge misty way.
Smiles and Love,
Grinity

To quote Simon and Garfunkle "When I think back on all that crap I learned in highschool, it's a wonder I can think at all"

I too was probably gifted but unidentified. it didn't help that I was one of the poorer, rougher kids. As I was preparing to graduate the counselor commented that they were surprized that i had the highest ACT/SAT scores of the 350 I graduated with. My grades definately reflected that.
I think some school officials go back to their own past and judge by backgrounds not true potential.

Scary....and sad.

I think we all want this for our children, and I'm sure your DC will benefit from your experience/wisdom. Good luck!

From my experience, just the fact that you've found this forum will benefit your kids enormously.

TwinkleToes,

Brag away! Really ... you will find that this is a place you can do so. I, personally, think you have an interesting story and love reading it. I also think you might feel a little attacked but I certainly was not trying to attack you ... at all! What I saw from your original post was a mother who is questioning if she really needs to advocate for her child since her parents didn't. We can't tell you the answer. But we can give examples of why it would be wise and how school of today is not school of when we grew up and research has come along way since we were children. SI was not even a diagnoses 15 years ago ... okay, technically still not but the word is out and parents of gifted children are more aware of sensory issues. My best friend's DD 15 yr old is PG and has serious problems right now. She is a DC with SI but it took her mother researching her symptoms to stumble across it. When she took it to the doctors they concluded she had it. What if my friend didn't happen on it? Scary thoughts. It doesn't change the fact that her DD is headed towards dropping out. They are now talking about therapeutic boarding school. Because yes her DD could get her GED with no problems but would fail miserably if she went on to community college b/c she has such anxiety and depression. And then we go back to my DD who is only 3... maybe I have been over exposed to the possibilities but I stress out about my DD's anxiety and underachieving.

But to shine the light back on you... you have a story that clearly shows problems with education but you are one, more fitting into the category of happy endings. You might disagree with that statement, but a Harvard degree is impressive.

I believe I read it in Genius Denied. Don't quote me on that and Cym might be able to clarify it more.

Not sure where it's written but I've seen Dr. Webb speak in person twice and he said it both times as a "known" fact.

I have to keep this very short (computer issues), but wanted to say that my parents did nothing and I didn't get into harvard (and if I hadn't been underachieving, I probably could have) (twice, lol). I didn't learn how to think until I was practicing law. Sure, I still went to an excellent law school, but I wasted a lot of years, a lot of time in which I might have learned something, had my parents done somemthing when I was in elementary school. A couple of my kids are already on paths to underachievement, and I'm trying to head it off at the pass. I hope to come back and read the rest of this when my DSL service is back up....

I don't think it's necessary to learn to work and learn to think in school, but if a kid doesn't learn it somewhere they are at a great disadvantage once they would like to achieve anything difficult. There are habits that are traditionally expected to be learned at school, like how to solve problems that don't have obvious solutions, how to work at something until you achieve a product that is good enough (rather than either perfect or just better than everyone else's), how to manage time and break projects down into manageable chunks, how to be a good sport, etc. etc. These skills are difficult to achieve when everything comes easy. Can these skills be learned outside of school? Sure. Sports, competitions, real-life projects around the house, just to name a few. But to put a kid in a situation where they are always the best, where they always knows the answer, are always the first one to complete a project with little effort, it's not healthy. When a kid grows up thinking they are the smartest or that they should be the best at everything they are often in for a rude awakening when they actually need to put forth effort and still can't produce perfection, or even something better than everyone else. See The Goldilocks Problem.

But then I'm with snowgirl, a semi-reformed underachiever. I would just say that if your kid isn't going to learn some of these life skills at school, it's important to find other ways to provide them.

I will look--I've seen it in a couple written forms (maybe Miraca Gross) but definitely heard talks about it: SENG Arlene DeVries said not only is their suicide rate higher, but they don't make mistakes (so they actually succeed more than attempt). We had a gifted HS student recently succeed in my town. Very sad. No one knew there was trouble.

Here's something from M. Gross: "The common perception of the extremely gifted as eager, academically successful young people who display high levels of task commitment has been refuted by research. This research demonstrates that many highly gifted children underachieve seriously in the regular classroom and that by the end of elementary school, many have almost completely lost the motivation to excel (Pringle, 1970; Painter, 1976; Whitmore, 1980; Gross, 1993).

The majority of the extremely gifted young people in my study state frankly that for substantial periods in their school careers they have deliberately concealed their abilities or significantly moderate their scholastic achievement in an attempt to reduce their classmates' and teachers' resentment of them. In almost every case, the parents of children retained in the regular classroom with age peers report that the drive to achieve, the delight in intellectual exploration, and the joyful seeking after new knowledge, which characterized their children in the early years, has seriously diminished or disappeared completely. These children display disturbingly low levels of motivation and social self-esteem. They are also more likely to report social rejection by their classmates and state that they frequently underachieve in attempts to gain acceptance by age peers and teachers. Unfortunately, rather than investigating the cause of this, the schools attended by these children have tended to view their decreased motivation, with the attendant drop in academic attainment, as indicators that the child has "leveled out" and is no longer gifted (Gross, 1993). Gross's Exceptionally Gifted Childrenhas a whole chapter on self-esteem, underachievement,

I am a witness to underachievement in underchallenged HG/PG middle school students. We have 7 kids in my son's class with IQ>145. One is failing, two others crashing fast. 50% underachievement--of course the ones who are failing are all boys.