Related to my other post: DD12 (just turned) is in 6th grade and in a double-accelerated math track (also designed for GT students, so on the one hand enriched, but on the other they are all 6th graders). The class has been easy for her up till now, but they are hitting true Algebra 1 material now (having finished prealgebra). She is struggling. I actually see this as possibly developmental, but also possibly a result of not having all the fundamentals of algebra fully in place before moving ahead. I've got her doing Dragonbox 2 and reviewing the concepts she's striking out on on Khan Academy. Other advice or resources from the trenches? DD is FREAKING out because she has never experienced the "I just don't get this" feeling before in math. She is also declaring that she hates algebra, which is not encouraging.

Could the problem be the book?

I collect math books, and have a pretty good pile of contemporary books that are used in schools. Without exception, anything published by mainstream publishers that I have or have looked at is a dog. So, this means, "Glencoe Algebra 1" "Prentice Hall Algebra 1" "Pearson-Prentice Hall Algebra 1." The same is true for the pre-algebra books. You can recognize them because they all have lots of bright friendly colors, and lots of notes in the margins about WHY THIS MATTERS! and LINKS TO STANDARDS!

When I looked carefully at these books, I realized that the subject matter jumps around and is often presented out of logical order. As an example, I'm looking at a copy of a bad algebra book right now. Chapter 3 has sections on:

• Solving basic one-variable equations
• Similar triangles
• Functions in two variables
• Deriving square roots
• Percent error
• Rate*time=distance word problems

It's a jumbled-up incoherent mess of concepts and examples. If your daughter is stuck with a book like this, the surprising part is that she's got this far without being too confused. BTW, the pre-algebra books are just as bad. They all are, really.

This mess is part of what drove the Common Core math standards (the standards are good, but the implementation is lousy). STEM faculty at universities have seen that students are increasingly unable to solve basic math problems, and they realized that the way the subject is taught in K-12 schools is a big part of the problem.

My best advice is to buy a copy of a very old book and start your DD in that, from page 1. My son is using this pre-algebra book. I call this book "Pre-algebra for future mathematicians." It's an outstanding work that starts with set theory and moves through properties of numbers, basic number theory, and other skills that underlie algebra (but are not taught today). Some of this book will be easy for an advanced 6th grader (so she could likely move quickly through it), but it provides theory that is sorely lacking today.

Alternatively, there's the Brown algebra 1 book. Teacher's editions and other extras for that book are easy to get. The Brown geometry and algebra 2 books are also very good. They lack the theory that the first book provides, though.

The route I recommend will take more time, but will get your daughter on track to learning math properly.

I've gone on too long and will stop now!

Yes, she is using a typical moden jumbled-up book like those you describe, although the teacher (who has been around the block) supplements with her own material, which is typically better, longer, and more thorough. I've noticed, FWIW, that both her recent teachers (last year's 5th grade teacher was math-savvy) do everything out of order from what the book prescribes...

Okay, so what's different now?

The hardest part of algebra 1 for my DD was the chapter on two-variable functions, which was about 2/3 of the way through the course. Is this what your DD's class is working on now? IMO, this topic is conceptually the hardest part of algebra 1 because it's so abstract. DD had to work hard on these ideas in order to grasp them. We went over them many times.

Alternatively, did the class start with pre-algebra and move into algebra (say, at the beginning of the second semester?). The progression isn't fully outlined in your first message. If this is the case, sticking points in early algebra 1 include having to do multiple steps to solve equations (e.g. 2x +3 = 17/2 - 5x) and rate*time = distance problems. In my experience, it's normal for parts of any course to be harder than others. Algebra gets difficult when it gets abstract, which happens in steps. Both these skills involve moving abstract ideas into practice.

What kind of pre-algebra course did she do? IMO (and only my opinion), today's pre-algebra courses fail because they don't teach the theory that kids need to honestly understand algebra. Going from arithmetic to algebra is a huge conceptual jump because of the abstract ideas in algebra. Pre-algebra should be based on practice of skills AND fundamental concepts about numbers (e.g. set theory, properties like commutativity, etc.). This approach introduces abstract ideas in a basic way that prepares students for what's coming. Unfortunately, pre-algebra today is generally skills-based, and set theory isn't a "skill."

She's hanging up on systems of equations. I feel like she has JUST gotten consistent with solving basic equations and now, bam, we're there.


Yes.

Wait. To me, this means, solve the following:

2x + 6y = 54
3x - y = -10

Is that right?

If she's expected to do this stuff, it's no wonder she's having trouble. This topic is way past the beginning of this subject. If they just started algebra last month, they should at a point where they're solving things like 2x + 3 = 17 - 5x (I'm guessing that was tossed into "pre-algebra" and bundled with solving 2x + 7 = 21). They still shouldn't even be at rate * time = distance yet.

Solving systems of equations should be in last quarter of algebra 1, after functions (which starts with graphing a line).

This is what I mean about it being all jumbled up. I'm sure her teacher is trying, but if this is where they are, she's out of order.

ETA. If the course is proceeding in a jumbled up way, it's not her fault that she doesn't understand it, and hating algebra isn't surprising. I'd hate it too if someone presented it out of order.

My middle son detested math and thought he was stupid until we took him back to basics and presented the subject to him in an ordered, coherent way. Two years later, he enjoys math and says "It's my friend again."

Yes. This is exactly what she's doing, though her examples are actually harder. I personally think this is very hard for age 12 and having just finished prealgebra, but I am not mathy.

She has done graphing, but not any serious functions.

I'm mathy, and this is way beyond what students in a first-quarter algebra course should be doing. It wouldn't surprise me if a lot of the kids in class are lost.

We have a situation where the books are awful and fear encourages a focus on skills that might be on a high-stakes test. Add to it that teachers, even though they may mean well, don't understand how the subject is learned (and may not fully understand the subject itself). Ergo, they can't teach it. Very few people in the field seem to understand that if you teach the fundamentals, the kids will be able to answer the questions on the bubble tests. It's a Dunning-Kruger thing, I suspect: they don't know how clueless they truly are, and are unaware of the damage they do.

I'm going to go back to my original advice. Start her on a proper pre-algebra course like the one I linked to. If you have a local Mathnasium, they might teach it to her (the Mathnasium was the starting point for my son saying, "Math is my friend again.").

The thought of starting over may seem icky. But try to see it this way: she's not starting over because she never got started properly to begin with.

Just to clarify.. is she is a CC compressed Math 8, Algebra I class combined? If so.. Math 8 isn't "pre-algebra" it is pre-algebra the first 4-5 chapters of Algebra & some gemoetry. Thus starting "Algebra book" would be getting into 2-equations and two unknowns. Still sounds like they have skipped a bunch of important information.

Are they teaching the cookie cutter approach to math? What I mean by that is not really explaining how or why it work but just showing them here is technique A,B, and C to solve the problems.

I agree that your daughter probably needs more practice and understanding for solving for one equation before she gets to two equations.

My only suggestion for understanding two equations & two unknowns then uses graphs? Solve with graphs first. Graph the equations & see where they overlap. IMO this is one of the best ways of understanding what is going on. Graph lots & lots of different equations. Graph them on top of each other and see where they intersect. Graph the different steps, so you can see that equations that look different are really equal.

IMO, bluemagic's graph idea is a very good one. You get to show a 'linear equation' describes a line and that the solution to a set of them is going to at their common intersection, i.e. where the x-values AND the y-values coincide.

It will also build on somethng that your DD has done before - providing a 'seed crystal' for further understanding to bind onto.

I'd agree. This is, btw, the approach taken by the secondary math stream of the Singapore Math series I've used with some of my children (Discovering Math/Dimensions Math CC; I prefer the sequence of Discovering over Dimensions). Plenty of graphing prior to introducing substitution or elimination, so that students understand that the solution of simultaneous equations is the coordinates of the point of intersection between lines, not just some procedural manipulation. Find a free equation graphing app (our iMac appears to have come with one) and graph them that way, if hand-drawing them becomes overly laborious.

I'm going to disagree and agree at the same time. Yes, in the current situation, graphing the lines will help. But IMO, it doesn't address the fundamental problem, which is that current teaching doesn't create a proper foundation.

Here's how the ancient pre-algebra book handles the idea of functions in chapter 1 (set theory):

Section 1.3 focuses on 1:1 correspondence between sets. Section 1.4 introduces a function in terms of 1:1 pairs between sets. It uses diagrams of sets to depict definitions for domain and range. Then it gets into the idea of one input ---> one output = function. It next brings up the subject in the final chapter (intro to functions and basic graphing).

Knowing this stuff is essential to getting what it means to solve a pair of equations. The intersecting graphs help IF the student has a solid understanding of function and intersecting sets, which I suspect is extremely unlikely in pre- or early algebra, especially as taught today.

I could be wrong; the OP could ask her daughter to explain functions and see what she says. She could also ask how the intersecting lines relate to set theory. If the answer is something like, "the point where the lines meet is the intersection of the sets of the two ranges," she understands. I suspect that very few kids get this. Yet it is so fundamental....

you guys are all over my heads, I'm afraid--I've had to relearn systems of equations to help her, and the graphing stuff is just gone for me, though I'm sure I could relearn. My sense is that her fundamentals of ALL things algebraic are shaky indeed. She is quick and picks up most things "procedurally," but some of this stuff is a bit less procedural. I had her here in Khan beacuse that's where they are:



and she was struggling, getting maybe 50% of the problems right. She actually had the basic concept down but was shaky enough that she kept fudging things up.

I took her back to here: and she walked through the first few videos and examples and got everything right and the lights seemed to be going on. I feel confident she could go through the KA systems of equations lessons and get this down. But what else doesn't she have down that she should have down? I'm kind of threatening/sweet talking her into doing this extra work...she's used to breezing through everything...

Techncally, she is in prealgebra. (How systems of equations is prealgebra, I don't know.) Next year, she will take Algebra 1. I'm still confused about how this all works.

Agree with various posters above that the current commercial textbooks tend to be a mess.

I'll observe that the Common Core standards for grade 8 do call for doing systems of two linear equations. From:

http://www.corestandards.org/Math/Content/8/introduction/

Students solve systems of two linear equations in two variables and relate the systems to pairs of lines in the plane; these intersect, are parallel, or are the same line. Students use linear equations, systems of linear equations, linear functions, and their understanding of slope of a line to analyze situations and solve problems.

which is presumably why your DD is encountering them in her 8th grade equivalent pre-algebra class.

I personally have inclinations towards the sort of theoretical approach Val recommended.

However, I'll mention another approach that I've seen work well, which is the cpm.org approach. I would describe the CPM approach as "Common Core done right". CPM Is a non-profit consortium, staffed by middle and high school math teachers, that developed, pre-CC, a math curriculum based on collaboration, communicating math ideas to others, and problem solving, with spaced-repetition/spiraling rather than drill-and-forget. CPM was able to do a quick-and-natural transition to CC alignment, rather than the sort of garbled hack jobs coming out from the commercial textbook publishers.

I'm not personally familiar with their "Course 3" textbook (which would tend to be used as the 3rd year of a middle school curriculum, that is, grade 8, prior to an Algebra class in H.S.), but looking at the table of contents:

http://cpm.org/cc3

Chapter 1: Problem Solving
Chapter 2: Simplifying with Variables
Chapter 3: Graphs and Equations
Chapter 4: Multiple Representations
Chapter 5: Systems of Equations
Chapter 6: Transformations and Similarity
Chapter 7: Slope and Association
Chapter 8: Exponents and Functions
Chapter 9: Angles and the Pythagorean Theorem
Chapter 10: Surface Area and Volume

it does appear to be following a sensible enough order of working with equations in one variable, then graphing, then making sure students can go between graphs/functions/tabular sorts of representations, and only then moving on to systems of equations: the sort of topic ordering various posters recommended.

However, CPM books can be challenging to use as a supplement for an individual student since they do expect (and are built around) students working in groups and bouncing ideas off each other, and explaining their work to others: it's discovery-style learning, based on problem-solving and collaboration. So a CPM book may not be much help to the original poster looking for a supplement and way to fill in gaps for a single student -- but in a situation with another kid or two to work together through the material, I'd look at CPM (and then supplement as the kids seemed ready with additional "pure math" discussions of fundamental principles).

consider also a video + book option that my son was able to get through fairly easily (age 14 at the time), and does cover systems of equations towards the end. the presenter/flow is very good at keeping a person's attention so it doesn't end up feeling like a lot of work.
http://www.thegreatcourses.com/courses/algebra-i.html

In the decent schools with which I am familiar, Pre-Algebra is not your parents' Pre-algebra. Perhaps partly because of all the exposures to "elementary algebra" and "elementary geometry" in the standard elementary curriculum, Pre-algebra is half review of elementary math and half beginning Algebra and beginning Geometry. In her GT Algebra I course, DD12 (7th) finished systems of linear equations and systems of linear inequalities a couple of months ago.

Systems of linear equations may be a bit early for Pre-Algebra and DD's GT Pre-Algebra course (using a standard textbook) did not cover it last year. However, three years ago, DS12 used a pre-2000 Pre-Algebra book in his extra-accelerated program that was specifically marketed for GT only and did cover systems of equations during the second half of the year.

Anyhow, here are my advice as related to your original concern although I must confess that I haven't dealt with brick walls or re-teaching as some PP have. First, I cannot overemphasize how critically important it is for your DD to graph graph graph graph graph. It is the key to conceptual understanding. Ultimately, she needs to look at an equation or an inequality (rather it is linear or non-linear) or a system of equations/inequalities and visualize what it looks like and therefore what it means. In fact, I think this is in part why the current curriculum order looks so jumbled and spirally to many - the objective is to provide a big picture structure/frame to be filled in rather than a linear approach of one subject followed by another and within each subject brick by brick.

Another advice is to put the system of equations in context - this is a standard requirement in our district even pre CC when my oldest took Algebra I 5 years ago. Make sure she can set up two linear equations based on a real life problem or in the beginning at least understand what two linear equations can represent in real life. For example, constraints on spending/purchases are relevant to a tween/teen. You don't want your DD to mechanically follow a procedure to solve for X and Y. You want her to see why she would bother.

Finally, use AOPS alcumus to check her foundation in Pre-Algebra. If she has mastered Pre-algebra, it doesn't take very long to pass all the Pre-algebra topics plus in the process she wil deepen her understanding. DD12 who is strong in math but not mathy by inclination/thinking breezed through school Pre-Algebra last year but I was concerned with the adequacy of her school curriculum so I had her go through alcumus Pre-Algebra. She passed all the alcumus Pre-algebra topics pretty quickly during the summer but did learn some new stuff/approaches, which I think probably contributed to her finding Algebra I really easy this year. Anyhow, my point is that a solid foundation in Pre-Algebra is critical before you can build the structure of Algebra, Geometry, Trigonometry on top.

Without reading carefully all replies (so with the risk of repeating someone else's point), I wonder whether the pace might contribute to the issue.

My DD is doing Algebra through an online course arranged by our district. What I noticed was that there were a few topics that took her quite a while to truly understand, even though the rest was straight-forward. With the online course this was not a problem. She simply spent more time on the difficult topics (much more time, actually, on these topics). But in a classroom kids might not have this kind of flexibility. So if they feel stuck on something, and don't have time to *unstuck*, and are forced into the next topic and the next topic, that might be a source of stress and frustration.

Just a thought... My son actually has similar moments. He is in college-level math, and he tells his teacher that he often needs a Eureka moment for a new concept to truly make sense. Before this moment comes, his homework and classroom discussion won't be of high quality but all he needs is a bit more time. And his teacher totally gets it.

Maybe talking with the teacher and see what they suggest?

I'm confused about that too, and think now that I was wrong about how wonderful the CC math standards are. A major point about them was supposed to be "deeper understanding without rushing." That doesn't seem to be the case here at all.

My understanding of the high amount of algebra in pre-algebra is this:

Lots of students are struggling with algebra 1 and not doing well on the standardized tests.

The problem must be that they need two years to learn the material. Therefore, we will put lots of algebra in pre-algebra and give them that extra time.

The same is happening with calculus, though to a lesser degree: Calculus with precalculus.

OP, I understand the problem better now, and have realized that your DD is in precisely the same situation my younger DS was in. He was doing CC 8th grade math and getting As, and then the very end of the first semester hit, and he was back to being completely lost. He was getting stuck on precisely the same thing your DD is on. I had a meeting at school about it, and he ended up doing that pre-algebra course I mentioned.

Sounds like she is probably in a Common Core 8th grade math class. Didn't know that went all the way to solving two equations and two unknowns.

Good Luck. I hope you have found some good advice.

ETA: 7th grade CC math has students solving equations that are algebra (see example below). My DS told me that he had done that last year, and didn't really get it then, either. Do you think your DD could have been in the same boat? It might explain why her algebra is shaky, as you described.

I do remember her doing some inequalities last year, which she struggled with somewhat but was able to do mechanistically. However, it's all a bit mystifying because last year she was one year advanced plus "gifted" in math (that is, she was in 5th and completed the 6th grade curriculum plus "extra enrichment"). She then, based on standardized test scores, was invited to take a placement test that could have put her in an "advanced 6th grade" class or this 2 years accelerated class. She placed into 2 years advanced, but it seems to me that she may have skipped some material...maybe this is a hybrid class of compressed 7th/8th grade?? Heck, it's really all very confusing. Whatever the case, she is not an accelerated 6th grader with 8th graders--she is with other same-age kids in a designated gifted class, but they presumably have at least as slapdash a background as hers, if not worse. She says other kids are having a hard time.

ETA: Her class's technical title is "7th grade gifted math." ??

Now they're done with that "unit" and have skipped to geometry, which she finds completely easy. She's thrilled. Hmm.

I think that Val is right-- it's probably the CC 8th grade course. Is the textbook Pearson's "Course 3" by any chance? That textbook is a horror show of modern textbook writing er-- well, compilation, let's just say.



DD helped tutor a LOT of students through that mess of a textbook, and the course that it went with-- which was just as labyrinthine. There were literally concepts that required skills in chapters that FOLLOWED the material being covered. It wasn't isolated, either-- it was a regular feature.

We are in a similar situation. DD10 should be in 5th but accelerated last Spring and then tested into a class that combines all 6th, 7th, and about half of 8th. We were told to do that instead of skipping levels so both girls would not miss content. Anyway, I looked it up, and the method is called "integrated math". She and her sister will come out of middle school with 2 years of high school math. I just looked to see the high school math progression and came away totally confused. I hope we parents get help figuring out math classes in a couple of years when we face registering for high school.

WHOAH! That's crazy...

HK, I think she is using a state-branded version of Pearson's Course 2 and Course 3? IDK.

HK

My DD just came home with an awful Algebra math worksheet, and following this thread I looked at the bottom and guess what is says, Course 3 Chapter 6! Poor kiddo!

BTW, greenlotus, DD is also scheduled to exit middle school with 2 years of high school math (algebra and geometry). They count for her transcript (somehow--not even sure how this works). Makes me nervous. I think DD's class is somewhat similar to your DD's--it appears to be a compacted 7th/8th grade curriculum.

I have asked over and over again if the grades on high school math classes done in middle school count in high school and most teachers say no and others say "I don't know." I ask if these classes show up on high school transcripts and again it's unknown. It's not like this is something new. I think that middle school teachers just don't know much about high school.
Our classes are no longer called "algebra" and "geometry". They get called Common Core 1 and 2 because they are that "integrated" business of stirring the 2 subjects together.

Now I'm curious what books our kids are using in math!!

The students will get credits for completing HS class in middle school and count towards graduation but not in their GPA. (at least most schools are).

Here, they appear on the transcript, kids get credit, and the grades are definitely figured into the GPA. One of the reasons the school has been so resistant to allowing acceleration I imagine; when kids sign up for middle school classes that are essentially high school classes on the middle school campus (like the math being discussed here), parents are sent multiple letters and what seem to be warnings, alterting them to this very point. (We are in a school where every parent is certain their kid should be in the top classes, etc, and in lieu of denying anyone opportunity, they allow anyone to take the advanced classes with a parental override of the teacher recommendations.)

I would see if you can ask someone (guidance counselor, perhaps) at the high school.

Same here. This is a big reason why our schools treat accelerations very very carefully, because they want kids to take challenging classes and get As. Parents sometimes don't realize this. For districts that routinely offer accelerated courses, they know exactly how these courses will be figured into transcripts and GPAs, parents need to find the right person to ask. My DD was allowed to start acceleration only this year (in 5th grade), she has finished 6th and 7th grade math and pre-algebra in the past 5 months or so, and will finish Algebra 1 before the end of 5th grade. But because her acceleration is arranged by the district, the district coordinator is keeping an eye and communicating with us on next steps.

Yes-- DD's math coursework starting in 6th grade was part of her high school transcript. (Algebra I)

I just referenced the letter we got when DD tested into this class, and it's actually quite clear. It says her 7th and 8th grade grades in math will be entered into her "permanent" high school GPA, though this still confuses me a bit--I guess she just will have more high school grades to average than other kids? It is actually a bit of a "scare" letter, direly worded, and I hesitated to put her in this class, even though she tested in easily. I posted about it here when making the decision, in fact.

In my district, AFAIK, you may not take this class without meeting two bars (standardized test score bar--easy--and placement test--harder).

I finally found this about high school math classes taken in our district's middle schools:

The grade will be listed on the high school transcript under Grade 6, 7, and 8 with one unit of credit.

Only courses taken during the high school years will be included in the student’s grade point average.

In our case this is a good thing. DD is doing very well in all classes, but as DD is emotional, ADHD, and very young for middle school we could see things change. I don't want her grades received at age 10 to affect her college choices.

It's interesting how different this is from location to location. My experience is like yours, not as ultramarina's and so many others. Ds's first class in HS will be precalc, and he'll take calc BC in 10th. Even though he takes Honors AlgII/Trig at the high school now, because he is in 8th grade, it shows up on his middle school transcript. In a way, this makes sense to me, because he is in 8th grade now. Whether he takes Alg or Geometry or 8th grade math or trig, it's his 8th grade math class.
What does NOT make sense to me is that he is still required to take the same number of hs math classes. IMHO, it should be "3 years or through Calculus" or "4 years or through Pre-Calc" or whatever you want, but right now he'll have to take at least Calc III for dual credit-which we'll have to pay for- in order to fulfill his high school requirements (and I've heard that some of the classes listed in the math dept, like AP Computer Sci/stats/micro won't fulfill that particular requirement).

And see, in some instances, this is how state graduation requirements are codified, which is why the policy of inclusion of those middle-school classes has to happen on transcripts. Otherwise, they'd have simply RUN OUT of math coursework to take in the first place.
It depends on how it's written up, and where-- if it's state law, there's not much wiggle room. If it's department of education "policy" then that means exceptions can be granted.


So yes-- if your state law requires "X years of high school mathematics" then, er-- coming into 9th grade as a calculus student means that there may be no effective means of satisfying the requirement in a technical sense. Not unless classes taken prior to entry into high school are allowed to be shown on the transcript, if they grant an exemption allowing the student to take distance college coursework, or something else like that. DD was allowed to use AP Stats, for example, though AP Computer Sci/Econ would NOT have counted.

Unfortunately, this is one of those ways in which GT students challenge the ways in which educational programming supposedly "works." The problem here is that nobody thought about this when writing the rules and the policies, which leave a sort of "undefined" gap between them that kids like this fall into.

That answer is THIS HAS CHANGED RECENTLY.

When my son took H.S. math classes in junior high I was told unequivocalably NO they didn't count for college admits. But things have changed. As of THIS year many of the state schools in California as of this year DO look at those grades. Not sure how the H.S. are handling it because those grades are NOT part of their H.S. transcript and not part of the GPA the High School shows. But I was told that the school was going to be handling this case since it was so common but I don't know how they are handling this.

I found this.. For UC's it's only if you take GEOMETRY in junior high. It's because they require Geometry to be taken.

http://admission.universityofcalifornia.edu/counselors/files/geometry-requirement-factsheet.pdf

Our state has the X years requirement for HS diploma and that's one reason we saw value in a whole-grade skip rather than SSA (since DS was over-all ahead, not just in math).

Moving back to the original tone of "hitting a wall", DD10 fell apart this morning. She had been up late last night with a bad cold so she was operating on little sleep and had had hours (!!!) of homework to do over the weekend. When she cries I know it's bad. She sobbed that she could not remember the geometry formulas for volume she had been taught last week, and she had a quiz about them today. Between the masses of Kleenex I saw everywhere and the meltdown before me, I knew her she needed to stay home. I did a little work. She did a little Minecraft. We met over some sheets of volume problems, and soon she was saying things like "Oh! I see. Let me re-do this one." or "Oh! I forgot to do this."

I took the "mental health" day approach - well, it was mental and sick - and it worked well. I asked her later if she liked learning math with me vs. in the classroom, and she said one on one with me (although I just found good websites to help because I can't remember any of this stuff). I asked her how she could remember science/social studies/LA facts so well but not the math, and she bluntly stated "I just read history and stuff once, and I know it." but she didn't have an answer why the math formulas wouldn't stick after just seeing them once. It's probably because she HATES math. Funny how the math went easily after she learned the formulas today. Plus, she and her sister were throwing volume information at each other across the dining room table over burgers.

Hours of week-end homework is excessive. If classes are overall easy and she is relatively quick, then you might want to advise her to do some of her homework at school when the other kids are still working on their tests/quizzes/class work.

Math may not be her thing and that is okay too.

Usually she doesn't have much work because she does do it in class. There was one of those ridiculous busy work projects, and 8 pages of math problems! She has notes in social studies that she is required to turn into "note cards" so it was a labor intensive project. We finally got the system down so next time it won't be so long. There was nothing about learning and everything about churning out little bitty pieces of paper. Ugh. Math was easy once she had the formulas down.

That's one of the hang-ups for a lot of us about math, I suspect. Things like history or science are more about memorizing and understanding (i.e., can seem a lot faster to master), whereas math is something you have to use in different ways (ex. various problems) to really know (slower).

Yes, very true for DD, and one reason she sees herself as bad at math.

So, after moving back out of algebra and into geometry, DD has gone back to not needing any HW help at all and getting As again. But honestly, I'm concerned. The struggle has been very real with the two units this year that were true algebra. I have always said that I could not really perceive DD's actual math ability because schoolwork in elementary was pretty easy, we didn't enrich, and it wasn't her area of interest. This year I think I'm getting more of a handle on it, and I just don't know about a double acceleration leading to calc BC junior year. She recently participated in a math olympiad-type contest (her class was required to) and scored just okay--pretty good, but I don't see great math talent from the score. I feel like we might have gotten on the wrong train. She probably CAN hack it in this progression, but it will likely be toil and tears, and she is a complex kid with other issues to handle. (OTOH, no other areas of academic struggle besides organization.) Many bright kids we know did not opt for this track, and I have wondered what they knew that we didn't.

Well... there is nothing wrong with NOT taking Calculus BC as a junior! I didn't read all of the threads on this but what about:
1) Math tutor or Kumon/Mathnasium?
2) Do tutoring or home problems daily over the summer?
3) Keep reviewing the basics of multiplication, fractions, etc. I think a lot of Algebra is that.
My son last summer took an accelerated 5-week course that was high school Algebra I. He got a B+ and it's made this year of 7th grade Algebra I (common core-style) a breeze.
sometimes you just need to slowly repeat or reintroduce topics until they like it and feel comfortable with it.
He doesn't do Math Olympiad- I think he doesn't like the kids who do it and he doesn't want to.

I'd be careful about making a judgment about talent based on a score in a single competition or on your DD's problems with Common Course course 3. Given the education your DD is getting (and no extra tutoring, right?), even a pretty-good Math Olympiad score is very good, given that the MO tests actual math skills, whereas that CC book is a dog's dinner of mashed up concepts. The course can't be far behind, given that it has to go through all the material in that horrible book.

I bought a copy of the course 3 book, and it's not much different from the other disasters that Pearson has given us in the last 10 or 15 years. It's all mixed up and out of order. Chapter 3 is about graphing equations and interpreting the graphs. Chapter 4 goes backwards to basic information about what it means to graph an equation.

Chapters 1-4 have lots of stuff about squares, cube roots, and quadratic equations. Chapter 6 takes us back to the very most basic ideas about exponents.

No, I am not making this up.

I'll repeat my advice from before: get your daughter into a program like the Mathnasium. They have their own mathematically correct curriculum, progress logically, and don't give homework (well, Mathnasium doesn't). If this isn't an option, I'd recommend an old pre-algebra book or the Brown Algebra 1 book. Teach her yourself with the help of a teacher's edition. As I mentioned, I did this with my son, and his relief at being freed from the pit of confusion was palpable.

Personally, I don't see much point in aiming for a Calc BC course if the student is going to struggle through badly designed Common Core courses to get there. It just doesn't make sense, and the students are honestly probably not learning much in a meaningful way.

But most importantly, don't let Pearson and the Common Core's poorly thought-out middle school math standards convince your daughter that she's "bad at math." Pearson and the middle school standards are the ones that are bad.

Val, I sent you a PM after belatedly getting yours a while back--not sure if you saw it since there is that blinky-enevelope thing.

The thing is, DD would kill me and throw my body to the sharks if I had her do any extra math or summer math. I don't want to categorically say that she doesn't like math, because...the thing is, she actually has this keen interest in finding math patterns and puzzling out math rules that has been with her since she was tiny. She still does this, inventing little theorems that are right, and it's the thing that makes me go....wellllll...but math as school math? Her least favorite class, certainly, and if I asked her to do it during summer I woudl have all out war on my hands. Now, I could pull her out of the class and have her do Khan or or an online class and really, she would probably kill it. She's a great autodidact. seriously. But EXTRA math? hahahahahaha.

As far as grade level basics, we know she is solid. She got a perfect score--no questions incorrect--on the state standardized math exam last year. Which is a very easy exam, AFAIK, but. So it isn't that she's shaky on that stuff. I just have felt like she's honestly struggling with certain portions of this advanced curriculum--and those portions are the algebra.


Well, so this is it too. I fear she will get by with grit and innate cleverness but not grasp things deeply.

DD could end up in science. She's also showing a real flair for technology and computers this year. So, part of me does not want to deemphasize math. But I also don't want to force her through an overly advanced curriculum that's hard for her and not in a subject she enjoys because that's what she is "supposed" to do as a high-potential student. Family values are not such that she must be TOP CLASS in everything.

Update: I emailed her teacher, who feels she is doing fine. (Not awesome or great, but fine.) The teacher said most kids do not get the algebra work they were doing the first time and she considered DD's progress normal. Hmm.

Ultramarina, I would not make your DD repeat CC8 based on relative weakness in the Algebra sections, especially if she is strong in the Pre-algebra and Geometry sections. It is very likely that 2nd time around, when she takes Algebra I next year, that the material will be more accessible to her.

I observed DD's Pre-Algebra class and DS's Geometry class last year and have maintained a dialogue with DD regarding her Algebra class this year as well. At our school, the GT classes are over-inclusive, which may be skewing the results. Anyhow, it seems that about 1/3 of the kids really get the materials and can be going faster/deeper, about 1/3 of the kids are getting the materials with effort, and about 1/3 are struggling and probably shouldn't be in those classes. Those kids in the 3rd category either repeat the course the following year or get lots of extra individual or small group tutoring help (in school or privately) to improve their performance. Some kids also do migrate from one category to the next based on the particular topics. In your DD's case, it appears that she is mostly in the first category and sometimes in the second. That is actually not a bad place to be as it can be excruciatingly slow when you are consistently in the first category. Just my two cents.

Quantum, I think that's an accurate assessment--it's just that when she's struggled, it's exclusively been with algebra. The geometry units are no problem for her; she actually loves them.

And now they have moved back down to 7th grade math for a long unit and she's getting 100% on everything. That makes me feel really doubtful about moving her down a track. So, where do we place a child who is underchallenged by a math curriculum 1 year ahead but struggling in a curriculum 2 years ahead?

Hire a competent tutor to get her ramped up for the curriculum 2 years ahead.

But then do I have to keep a tutor for the next 5 years? Oy.

Well, she can't be in a place where she gets 100% in everything.

That's a complete waste of time.

I'm guessing here, but I would suspect she'll only need a tutor off and on when she can't figure things out herself.

I have a mental block regarding tutoring for this. To me, a tutor is something you get when you have an LD (DD does not) or when you are not able to keep up with work at grade level (not the case). You might also get one if the teacher is very bad (not the case--I think she's good, but stuck with this curriculum). It seems tigermom-ish to get a tutor to stay on track in an advanced class you could opt out of, no? Hothouse-y. Do people here really get tutors for their non-LD kids?

Well, I don't know whether getting a tutor for her is the right thing to do for this subject. But parents do this for other areas of life all the time. Sports, music. It does sound like that she is stuck somewhere in algebra. It may not be a bad idea. Dropping her off to less advanced track seems to be more drastic than getting her up to speed when she is only in trouble for a quarter of the time in a class. She may very well only need to have a breakthrough this one time than do fine without extra help afterwards.

FWIW, our DYS son needed extra help to fully understand a few math concepts he missed (my guess is he was distracted by something and didn't listen, but maybe he didn't understand due to how it was explained the first time). He spent a few weeks after school with the math teacher and voila, no more problems in that area. So, not technically a tutor, but extra help 1:1. No LDs.

I would reframe it as what we are suggesting is far from full-time tutoring and instead, is about giving her tools to fully understand a concept or techniques that didn't "catch" the first time.

I really wish someone had caught on that I didn't understand some algebraic techniques and instead kept just going along with the classes (I was too proud to say anything until I nearly failed a college algebra class). A few days or weeks of 1:1 help would have completely changed things in regard to math for me.

You get a tutor if you can't keep up in your class - before you drop down a level. "Grade level" is a completely arbitrary determination after all. And even if you need a tutor to help you understand the work, you are still making the leap of understanding and eventually doing the work yourself. Your DD is stuck with the curriculumwhich apparently mixes topics oddly and inappropriately just like the teacher is.

People really get tutor's for their non LD kids. Sometimes just to keep grades up in required classes for their normal kids. Particularly if the kid seems to have missed something.

I do agree with you it is a bit 'Hothouse-y' to get one to keep up in a advanced class. Particularly if you feel your daughter would need to always need a math tutor to keep up to the advanced level. At one talk by my school district they warned parents that if kids always needed a tutor for the advanced classes they weren't in the right placement.

But your daughter is already IN this class. She gets some of it but is having a particular problem in specific parts of it. I would consider a tutor now, but

I mean, right now she doesn't need one at all, because they've backed off algebra and might not even touch it again for the rest of the year, perhaps? Next year is Honors Algebra 1, though, and unless it's 1) taught better or with a better book and/or 2) DD's brain makes some more connections (not impossible--she's a plateau/leap kind of kid), I predict trouble...

Think of a tutor (a good one, at least) as making up the shortfall in adequate instruction from a woefully disjunct curriculum/string of pitiful teachers.

Were I in your shoes, there wouldn't be any stigma in my mind over this - I would just be pragmatic - there is something that needs to be fixed and the tutor will fix it...

It would be reasonable to ask the teacher what the curriculum for the rest of the year will cover if that helps you make a more informed decision.

A brief update on this: FWIW, DD (6th grade) took the 7th grade state standardized math test per her acceleration and knocked it out of the park (from raw score, looks like she got all questions correct but one). So whatever is going on with algebra, she had no issues with 7th grade curriculum, at least as tested by the state. I still have a rather high degree of confusion regarding "8th grade math" and DD.