To my surprise, this post is about my DS7.

DS really has never gotten into trouble with a teacher or at camp in his life. (He was the kid who cleaned out the "Treasure box" in K and 1--I gave the teacher a lot of giftcards!) However, he seems to have a persistent problem at one after-school activity. I think there may be an issue with how the activity is run, but that's neither here nor there because DS really wants to continue it.

The adult in charge has spoken to us several times about DS's behavior being poor and even basically threatened to kick DS out. The behavior described is mild, TBH, but I think the real problem is that DS, like many gifted kids, is 1) a bit of a smart-aleck and 2) focused on accuracy. So, the supervisor might tell DS to "stop kicking the table" and DS would stop, but say "I wasn't kicking it. I accidentally hit it with my knee." (Note--he would not say this if it wasn't true, or most likely not.) DS also is a bit of a clown and this adult is quite serious and not one for "funny kids." An adult with a good handle on gifted kids should be able to handle all this, really (again, no one has ever had a problem with DS in any other setting), but that's not what the situation is and it isn't likely to change.

We have repeatedly explained to DS that many adults really dislike any kind of backtalk and are working on shutting it down at home (we have tendency to ignore it as long as the behavior stops). We've gone over what to do if other kids are getting wild and how to step away from that. We have even worked on a really old-school obedient style ("Yes, sir. I'm sorry. I won't do it again,"), but it's a hard transition for him. At this point, I think we are in real trouble because for whatever reason, this person is not a fan of DS.

Discontinuing is not an option. Any suggestions for us or DS?

Honestly, if ds can't get in line with the expectations of this adult, it might be a good lesson for him to be kicked out of the class. Have you been able to explain to him clearly what this adult expects from his behavior and what the end result will be if ds can't align himself with the expected behaviors?
It's a bummer situation to be in!

I'm not 100% sure exactly what the adult expects other than "be good" and "obey me." So, you've just given me an idea. Maybe we need to all sit down together and have a "meeting" so that DS gets it spelled out.

We have already told DS he may be kicked out. But...in actuality, there is a complexity there (they need him to compete) and I don't THINK he would be. Or...it would be stupid of them. I think it's an empty threat.

It's a tough situation but as daytripper says, the only possible outcome might indeed be to be kicked out. I would have to weigh what the lessons are there vs. pulling him out (despite his protesting) proactively.

The only other thing I can see is trying to teach your son about understanding/guessing what someone is really saying, vs. the exact phrase they use. For example, if the adult says "stop kicking with your knee," what are they really wanting you to stop? Making noise by hitting the table... etc.

This brings to mind the recent thread on Using exact vocabulary. It especially calls to mind the posts on the need for the child to "interpret" and to understand the degree of precision which is appropriate in the context of the situation.

"Empty threat" sounds so adversarial, like you're dismissing this guy's seemingly legitimate frustrations as a failure to understand gifted kids. Being gifted doesn't excuse a child from being respectful to someone (who may be volunteering his time?).

Honestly, from what you wrote, it sounds like your son is talking back and pushing the instructor's buttons, which is quite disrespectful. Your son may think that what he's doing is funny --- maybe this is a good opportunity to teach him that just because it's funny to him doesn't mean it isn't legitimately aggravating to the other person. This is a good social skill to learn.

Yes, kids will be kids and all. I get that. And your son is very young, and if the other kids are older, that's hard. Maybe he can start to learn to behave like big kids. I used to tell my kids, "Look around at the other people here. Are they making loud noises/acting hyper/whatever?"

Seven is old enough to know that arguing a detail to avoid responsibility for a larger bad behavior isn't okay, and that the appropriate answer when you're doing something that bothers someone who's there to help you is, "I'm sorry; it won't happen again."

I know I sound defensive of my son. There's a little more background here that I don't want to get into. Also, this adult is not actually the head of the activity but an assisting person, not that it really matters... Regardless of that--personally, I don't consider a little backtalk a reason to threaten to throw a kid out of a paid recreational activity, so that rubs me the wrong way. I would reserve that kind of discussion for serious repeated rule violation, violence towards other kids, etc.

But yeah, he is talking back, though he also stops the behavior. He is not pushing buttons (on purpose)--he doesn't know how to, except maybe with his sister. He's a pretty innocent dude. However, the instructor may THINK he is doing this. Which I agree, is a big problem. And we have talked to (ahem, yelled at) him about how he MUST be much more respectful and respond more quickly and appropriately. But I think what it is is, the adult is in a place where he seems to misinterpret DS and/or react more quickly to him. I've seen this before with kids and adults. You get in a groove where you see that kid's activity first and react first.

I also feel like this thread makes DS sound socially not with it, but the weird thing is, he is with it, generally....he's way faster to "get" what to do when we as parents are mad or irritated than his sister. He is quick to apologize at home and is the family peacemaker. The whole thing is kind of odd, really...

Oh, boy. EASIER said than done. Ever see that movie about Alan Turing..."When people talk to each other, they never say what they mean. They say something else and you're expected to just know what they mean."

Saying one thing and use a facial expression or body language to indicate you mean the exact opposite of your words is a classic example.

Sounds more like my son, however; he usually easily gets what others are saying or want, however his expressions are sometimes problematic. Meaning to be funny-sarcastic but not smiling (which only comes off as being rude). Has that been an issue for your ds before ? My ds does have a diagnosis of asperger's, which is I suppose where this stems from.

I agree with Val on this.

I honestly don't have enough of a read on the situation (from simply reading posts here) to know what's really up - but if you haven't already done this, I'd meet (without your ds) with the adult that's sending the reports home and with the supervising adult at this activity. Ask for them to describe what's going on - listen to what they both have to say. If only one talks, ask the other if that's what they've seen.

There are all sorts of angles could be happening here. For instance, some adults are simply more mellow about overlooking back-talk (you stated above that he does talk back at home sometimes and you ignore it) .That's a totally legitimate way of dealing with it, but it doesn't make the behavior acceptable. It's possible that your ds has acted this way with other adults and he's now getting called on it simply because he's run into a supervising adult with a low frustration level for it.

OTOH, it's also possible that your ds is acting entirely different around this particular adult than he does around other adults - and if he is, there may be a reason for it - maybe the adult is the problem. If that's the case, you might seriously need to consider pulling him from the activity if there isn't a way to avoid the adult. I may sound too cautious about that, but I have known kids who've been hurt (physically and emotionally) by adults who took advantage of power in a situation like this. I am not saying that's going on at all - just saying that if you're seeing atypical behavior in one situation with one adult - it could be the adult that's the issue.


Best wishes,

polarbear

I agree with Val that some aspects of the parent posts sound a bit adversarial. The most contentious point may be that the activity needs this particular child in order to be competitive and therefore it would be "stupid of them" to expel a child for back-talk and poor behavior. Some may say that there are more important experiences for seven-year-olds than winning, such as demonstrating teamwork and respect.

If an adult tends to see a particular child's activity first and react to that child first, it may be that the child is a leader or instigator who can quickly get others off-topic and/or disregarding the rules.

I'm sure the situation can be worked out for the benefit of all involved.

how much longer is the activity (weeks? months?)

This is insightful and I think both scenarios are a real possibility. I am actually a little worried.


Yes, okay, that was poor wording. The irony is, I say this in part due to the pressure that has been put on my son to win and achieve at this activity. Winning is VERY important to the adults in this activity.

As an update, DS did this activity today and apparently was an angel. I guess we put the fear of God into him. However, I don't know if this will last.

BTW, the activity will continue for many months and this is the only place/way DS can do it. It's tricky.

How important is the activity to your son? How much does he care about winning?

I didn't read the empty threat statement the way others did. If it is an empty threat it is more problematic really. Ds8 got to go on a reward trip at school last year even though he hadn't met the criteria. I would have preferred they had got him to meet the criteria (which they could have) as the lesson he learnt was not a good one.

Can you sit in on the activity sometimes?

I will also add some questions to Val's : How does your son respond to being under pressure? Does he realize that entering a high pressure competition is an "option"? Does he realize that it is "OK" to learn a skill and not be competitive?

Signed,
Mom who pulled her son out of the high pressure "competitive music" circuit

PS: I know that you said that this is the only way to do the activity, so your son may also understand that and be under more pressure because of that.

Do you think your DS' behaviors are acceptable? Do you feel your DS is being unfairly treated?

It doesn't have to be one or nothing. If you think the behavior isn't acceptable, you can stop for one week and regroup after that.

Was the adult threatening expulsion over the "I wasn't kicking it, i accidentally hit it with my knee" comment? I guess I'm in the minority here, but that doesn't sound disrespectful to me if it was true. Unwise, perhaps, given the personality issues--but he's a little boy.

It would seem like a pretty harsh consequence for a small mistake.

Very. He loves it in a pure sense.


Enh. Middling. Sometimes more, sometimes less. Not as much as many do.

I have thought about whether there is any way to really do this activity without the competition. Not really. It's quite tricky.


I get why you did this. But it's a hard one for me philosophically, and safety-wise. I don't want my child to feel he/she must obey every adult unquestioningly. That frightens me.

I have a literal-minded DD, who would totally say, "I wasn't kicking, I hit it with my knee." She wouldn't mean it disrespectfully (though I can't make any claims to her being a respectful sort of child to begin with -- fortunately, her teachers seem to feel she's just fine), but rather as a necessary clarification of an incorrect statement.

On another note, I continually drum into DS the need to make a good first impression because adults tend to take that impression and run with it. I remember a class in high school where the teacher took a liking to me, and afterward I could do no wrong, and at the same time took a disliking to a boy in the class, who then could do no right -- and it made no difference if we were both doing the same thing. Naturally I was happy to take advantage of it, but I thought it a bit unfair to the boy.

Sorry this just made me cringe. Obedience is something you train a dog or an animal to do unquestioningly not a child. Blinded obedience, obeying every single adult - sorry, but yikes. But hey in my inlaws' religion this is not only expected of children it is expected of wives to their husbands... Creepy ... But I digress. I am a proponent however of respect... And I'm joining Eco in the minority - The adult sounds like a douche (and I don't think I've ever used that word before!) sorry I don't have much advice .. I like the idea of you sitting down with guy and talking it out. Good luck!

I think the nuance we encourage in our children is distinguishing respect from obedience or agreement. One shows respect by listening attentively (that would be with one's whole body). One shows respect to adults on the basis of their humanity and their roles, even if it is sometimes difficult to respect this particular specimen. One shows respect by attempting to understand others. Sometimes one even shows respect by obeying directions one does not agree with, as long as they do not violate one's own deeply held principles, or pose a safety hazard. Part of showing respect is gently voicing disagreements with an attitude of understanding the other party's perspective, not in an adversarial manner.

Very diplomatically said aeh! I definitely encourage my kids to question authority if necessary They're here to learn and grow and enjoy, not blindly follow orders. If they think something's wrong I want to hear about it! I think we may quietly be a bit of a rabble-rousing family in a polite, respectful way

Anywho, OP, I don't think from your description that your DS is any different to other boys i've seen in general activities and IMO it's the leader that needs a big attitude adjustment. They're in the wrong position if they can't handle a smarty pants kid or two. Tell them to pull their head in and stop being such a sook! (See, rabble-rousing)
In my DD's Girl Guides group there's a really annoying girl who's always making trouble, being smart, pinching things, wrecking things, making other girls cry etc etc. Annoying, but I in no way expect her to be kicked out. That is extreme.
I think maybe it's a bit unfair for your DS to be yelled at about behavior that's acceptable everywhere else except in this activity. He'll get the gist about what people will and won't put up with as he goes, he doesn't have to figure it all out at once right here and now because of one person:)

Blind obedience is dangerous! In this particular case, maybe just explaining the whole "different situation, different rules" would help? Another thing that we try to do here is explain that it's a really important life skill to just let things go, sometimes. That's not easy for kids who really want things fair and accurate! But it is necessary for the sanity of all involved.

When I work with children, something comes up frequently: stories in which they were wrongly accused (and punished) for something. It's very confusing and upsetting for kids. I understand a six-year-old needing to set the record straight, even though this situation wasn't so important from an adult perspective.

Why couldn't the adult in charge just say, "noted," or something to that effect, and move on? And maybe speak privately later about it being distracting/disruptive to have unwelcome comments during the activity?

Bright children are likely to be receptive to a conversation about how unwelcome behaviors affect the group as a whole, or cause the leader to feel frustrated. It doesn't seem like a respect issue, but more a matter of a six-year-old being somewhat egocentric and failing to take the other perspective. Developmentally appropriate, IMO, but maybe you can use his smarts to help him understand being flexible to different expectations and personalities.

For fun, I decided to run this scenario past my two DC.

Both kids said the child was just trying to explain himself, and not being disrespectful on purpose.

DD11 says: He should just say I'm sorry and sit down and never correct an adult because adults don't like to be wrong.

DS12 says: He shouldn't try to explain himself and should just shut up.

As an aside, reading my above post, DS said "because teachers don't act like that" in re: my question about why the adult couldn't just easily move on.

He also is perplexed by the flashing envelope, even though I have no new PMs.

Thought it would be fun to share a kid perspective.

I just have to add as a postscript to this (my kids are having a rough adjustment to the school year, I guess!) I was with my DD's teacher yesterday for another event and she needed to speak to me about a minor behavior issue. Polar opposite approach. She said something like, "Hey, so I'm having X issue with DD in class. It's not really a huge deal, but I don't want it to continue because Y good reason. Do you have any ideas on how to best handle it, or what might be going on?"

That is how you approach something like this when you know what you're doing.


yeah, and maybe we haven't emphasized this enough.

But I do think this is a "bad impression" situation. I mean, we all know it happens. DD had a teacher last year with this reputation. For whatever reason, she was a darling of this teacher and could do no wrong, while other children got a lot of flak. Even she knew that it was sort of unearned.