My son will be entering middle school in NC this year. We may have the opportunity for him to independently take the required high-school math courses in middle school but when he enters high school he would still be required to take 4 years of math courses.

He would be left taking much higher level math classes than others which potentially could negatively impact his GPA. I had not thought of this but the school warned us of this potential issue.

I want him to be challenged and learn but do not want to put him at a disadvantage because we do not know how to play the "game" for college admissions. Has anyone else dealt with this type of situation and if so could you let me know your thought process, what you chose and if you would do anything different...I understand colleges want to see that you have taken the most challenging courses available but for our school district, no one else would be in this situation which is great if he does well but could be negative if he does not.

My general feeling is that he likes to be challenged in math and I see no reason that he would not do very well in the higher level courses in high school. He is quite young though and I hate to make choices now that could be problematic in the future.

My choices seem to be to have him take the required tests and accelerate through the high-school math courses or instead he may be allowed to work independently during math classes on courses I purchase for him through EPGY, AoPS, etc but take the end of grade tests on grade level and not be accelerated.

Perhaps we have a different system here, but there is a set curriculum of high school math required for graduation. These are the courses that universities recognize for admissions, and they would be used in calculating GPAs. If your DS were to take the complete series of high school math in middle school, his high school transcript would simply accumulate the credits, but they would also be listed on middle school report cards.

You need to figure out exactly how this works in your district. From what you are saying, he will finish Calc BC, AP Stats and Linear Algebra in MS?

If that is the case - and there are some kids here that take that path - is there a college nearby? Kids around here just go to a nearby college (there are three four-year colleges within a mile of the HS). Also, in our district, HS courses taken in MS do not show up on your HS transcript. If you take a course outside the HS (for example, a college math course), it counts as a credit but does not factor into GPA.

I know that things work differently in other areas. I see this all the time on this site, but I find it hard to believe that no one else has faced this situation. There are always a few kids in each class in our HS who have run out of HS math classes by 9th or 10th grade, sometimes by 8th.

If math is the path, then the big future step is grad school. I was reading an interesting discussion that suggested that people making it into the top grad math programs were ones taking linear algebra their freshman year of college.

Our plan is to make sure DS continues moving at the pace that suits him and he enjoys.

Good GPA is common, kids graduating HS with three+ years of college math credit are not at all common.

Our approach is to with the right level and pace now. Cross future bridges if and when they come.

For course availability we have AoPS, then the local university. The courses won't run out.

As to high school credits, the whole thing is ridiculous. Any decent university should recognize when a student is radically accelerated, and view it positively.

Does the school have math classes beyond Calculus, such as Multi-Variable Calc or Linear Algebra? My school does not, my son who will finish Calculus Junior year will probably take AP Computer Science as his "math" class. But my school/state only REQUIRES two years of math and to pass algebra. But the two years of H.S. math he took in H.S. do not count, nor are they part of his transcript to go to university. I had not sure what the one classmate who finished Calculus as a freshman is going to do, although I assume it's to take courses at the local university.

This is something to consider. On the other hand if you so in bored in math now, he might decide he dislikes math or do worse. I have seen this happen with a few kids. I have seen a kid get so bored in pre-Algebra as to be almost failing be moved to Algebra and start Acing the class.

Look at what the school offers for classes in H.S. I wouldn't worry that a bright math kid who was doing well in math through Calculus would have a particular problem with Linear Algebra and necessarily lower his GPA.

Another question is how many kids get accelerated like this. At my school probably 15% of the kids take Algebra in 7th grade, but only one or two earlier than that. It is really quite common these days for kids to finish Calculus by the end of Junior year.

Here the grades count even if a HS-level course is taken during the MS years. We have accelerated our immature/disorganized math lover anyway, and I think the chips will fall where they may in terms of GPA.

I am reading all sorts of technical assistance papers on the ACCEL law here in FL. I really think that on a state level the ACCEL law is very pro gifted. (At the school level I think things are still small battle after small battle). Supposedly one of the things under this law is that the schools have to inform you of your options.

The thing is at this time you as a parent have to know that it exists and understand it. From my advocacy at the beginning of last year, speaking with the gifted district level person, if you trot out the words "I would like to discuss options under ACCEL" you have your ticket. If you don't use the magic words, you get the run around.

One thing that I just saw that is interesting is that elementary students and middle school students (and we already have many many 8th graders getting high school credit for math and science classes and the grades go on the transcript so that is nothing new)now can bank high school credits. AND the funny thing is they don't even have to take the actual class through the school system...so if they are a full time elementary school student and they pass the EOC for a high school class they can bank that credit for high school credit...it is called some sort of CAP program...but I can't find what CAP stands for.

Here is an interesting overview (it has some extraneous info involving funding for the districts but it is very interesting).

http://www.fldoe.org/bii/Gifted_Ed/

Look under Technical Assistance Papers...the last link in that section.

Our DD13 finished 9th grade in June, having taken Geometry as her math class.

Our thought process when advocating for both of her whole grade accelerations, and in accepting the school's recommendation to further accelerate her in math, was to be prepared to sacrifice GPA for actual learning. Sure she could have snoozed her way to an easy A+ in 7th grade math this year. Instead she was challenged and had to fight for her A in Geometry. At the end of the year her GPA might be slightly lower than it could be, but in exchange she has gained much more value in real knowledge.

Would we do anything different? Not substantially. Maybe if I could think of a way to boost her confidence in her math ability. Since math is her relative weakness, she thinks she is not good at math. Frustrating since she considers me good at math, yet at 13 I was looking to take 8th grade math where she's queued up for Algebra II.

Best of luck,
--S.F.

Well, I am not sure that I am qualified to reply as we are still in the process. However, I do have to say that the decision has been pretty clear based on balancing what DS absolutely needed with practical considerations. This has meant choosing not to accelerate as fast as DS can ace a course, but only as far as it would have actually been harmful to not accelerate. As a result, DS is an incoming 6th grader who has been accelerated two years so scheduled for Geometry with 8th graders in the Fall. This means that DS will likely be taking either Linear Algebra or Differential Equations as a Junior or Senior even if he also takes the "sideways" option of Statistics as a Junior/Senior. Although Linear Algebra and Differential Equations are harder than Calculus, they are also natural progressions so not necessarily harder to ace.
Of course, in your DS' case, you may be talking about a more radical acceleration than we have chosen for my DS, but the same issues are present. Ultimately, I would say go with your gut. If everything has been so easy thus far, it makes more sense to stay on course unless/until your DS hits a wall. For what it is worth, I would go with your option #1 and accelerate rather than to work independently on EPGY, AOPS, etc. without acceleration. While I know that some people think highly of EPGY and AOPS, they are not accredited and there is the perception in some education circles that they are not sufficient in and of themselves. I am not knocking AOPS because I actually love alcumus but I wouldn't allow that to be DS' only credential for practical purposes.

This depends very much on your options. Given that AP courses have honor points in high school but not in middle school, there are real GPA tradeoffs in taking high school math early. However, there are other concerns as most NC districts do not have much math beyond calculus, although NCSSM would be an option eventually. And there aren't many peers taking calculus in middle school, so your child needs to be ready to learn independently.

We elected for math now, and will run out of options for high school math before high school starts. I think it was a good decision for my child, who was rapidly coming to detest math before being allowed to have some challenge. I don't really care about GPA issues, but I am worried about what to do for math in high school.

Many districts have concurrent-enrollment programs with area colleges (community colleges or 4-year colleges). Here it's quite simple: when DS maxes out the math at the HS, he will attend the college for math, on the district's dime.

Transportation, of course, will probably be on me. There will be things to iron out...

THIS.

DD's transcripts reflect it, too-- that is, her ONLY non-A grades are in math coursework, but oddly, not in those later AP courses.

We were on the opposite side of the divide that is outlined by the OP, though-- DD didn't have a choice-- she HAD to take a math class, and the ones that she was taking in 7th + 8th grade were honors high school courses... which went on her high school transcript. And were later rolled into her cumulative GPA, I might add.

I think that you have to do what feels like the right thing for your child at the time. You don't really have a crystal ball, and so you CANNOT really know whether you'll regret the decision later. KWIM?

The really critical down side that I see to this kind (and extent) of math acceleration is that high school math teachers are rarely well-equipped to teach anything well once one moves beyond trigonometry.

Even with training, most of them do NOT teach calc well, much less anything past it. At least DD's math teacher understood the math well himself. He just didn't have the grasp of spoken/written English to actually teach anything, or to grade written work well-- so he didn't. I'm not dissing him on the basis of not being a native speaker, but it was a rather severe impediment to effective instruction and feedback. But he did know the math, at least, unlike a lot of her friends' experiences with AP calc teachers who just shrug when asked questions.

The instruction problem was the reason why DD effectively de-celerated math after algebra II as a freshman. Instead, she took AP Physics that next year, and not Calc. Her senior year, she took some dual enrollment credits-- but statistics, not calculus, because I could fill the gaps instructionally with the former, and not so much the latter.

In her intake interview with the math department, they were pleasantly surprised that she had not taken CALC in high school, but HAD taken college level algebra and statistics. They were perfectly happy to have her as a major even without the differential and integral calc sequence. {shrug} I suppose opinions vary, but I strongly suspect that they like to know that a student has learned the calc well as much as early. The quality of high school teachers really begs a lot of questions on that score. It's also worth noting that even students who don't PLACE (via ALEKS, which a great many colleges use as a placement tool) into calculus (differential, I mean) seem to wind up getting 3's (or better) on the AP exam. {sigh}

Us, we chose to "play the game" to some degree-- but recall also that "the game" meaning fluff coursework that is "easier" is completely unnecessary for HG+ kids to begin with. So "the game" for kids like my DD-- and likely most of those on the boards-- is to take as MUCH weighted coursework that "counts" toward the GPA as possible, in order to maximize class rank... so the trick is actually to take the UNWEIGHTED coursework over summers, or get it off-site somehow so that it doesn't get averaged into the GPA to start with. Yes, that is a bit squicky, I think-- but that's "the game" as it is played NOW. DD did drop an unweighted course (dual enrollment) and DID avoid taking anything at the local community college itself (because we were informed that those credits WOULD be averaged into her GPA, and would NOT be weighted like honors or AP is at the high school. But she didn't find a way to take health or PE such that those didn't get averaged in, either. Nor did she CLEP out a language requirement.



Particularly if they haven't been grade accelerated more than a year, I don't see calculus, linear algebra, or stats BEING all that hard for a 15-17yo HG+ student. KWIM?

My personal opinion is that Linear Algebra is easier than Calculus, and it doesn't really require Calculus. I don't see it as being any harder.

Agreed.

Interesting topic for us as we just had a meeting with our #2 guy in our school district (all the assistant supers report to him). We are not being allowed to accelerate beyond the program they offer. At this pace, both kids will have completed geometry in 8th grade. DS needs more acceleration than will be offered as right now, he is about a year behind his sister who although just completed 4th grade, has completed 5th grade math and next year will complete 6th and 7th grade math. (his program will condense 3-4-5th grade into 2 years)

You got me thinking about it and I realize the word "harder" may not be sufficiently adequate. Perhaps I am thinking about the potential for depth in the sense that you can more readily separate the mathematically talented from the merely smart than in a basic course like Calculus. I did not study Linear Algebra until college and while I ace the course as easily as Calculus, it was more intellectually sophisticated than my three semesters of Calculus AB and Calculus BC during High School. While all my classmates in Linear Algebra aced their high school calculus courses, not all of them aced Linear Algebra or mastered/extended the concepts as required by the course.

Worth mentioning that in NC we have the North Carolina School of Science and Mathematics high school. Their catalog is pretty informative: https://focus.ncssm.edu/uploaded-assets/CourseCatalog.pdf

They have courses for advanced research, multivariable calculus, and such. Definitely on our radar as a potential option.

My experience was the same but maybe it was because I had a solid foundation in geometry and to me it was natural to visualize as well ( until n- dimensional spaces at least LOL).

Linear Algebra and Calculus are different, and each is as hard as the course designer chooses to make it!

AoPS is accredited now, by the Western Association of Schools and Colleges, if that helps. Academically, the idea that one of its courses isn't as good as the corresponding course taken in a bricks and mortar school is laughable. I suppose it could be an issue that there's no invigilated final exam, but that seems to be common.

Many juniors highs in our area (and yours) don't have the option of even taking geometry until Freshman year at the earliest. Our niece was an example. She was shocked that her cousin was taking Geometry in 7th grade. It seems that Geometry is a Sophomore level class for most.

There's plenty of mathematics out there to learn.
http://hbpms.blogspot.com/2008/05/content-and-about.html
If you run out of mathematics, then you can always make more.

Point taken - The cohort/environment makes a huge difference. At my alma mater, Linear Algebra was treated more like an upper level course (less than two dozen Sophomores/Juniors majoring in Math/Applied Math) whereas Calculus was treated akin to a survey course because most of the Freshmen who did take it were repeating it.

I am not familiar with the Western Association of Schools but our district seems big on independently vetting everything. At one time, CTY was sometimes acceptable in certain limited circumstances as long as the student also jump through other independent hoops. For what it is worth, in addition to Alcumus, I really appreciate AOPS for providing curriculum such as Number Theroy, which are not routinely covered in schools. However, I do understand why our district would not accept online courses like AOPS by itself as a complete substitution. As a practical matter, the concept of an Honor System without oversight will never take root in our huge diverse system. There are also practical differences in curriculum and grading. In our district, writing/verbalizing math solutions is a huge component from 2nd grade onward and most of the grades come from unit tests and quarter exams which are always proctored.

I suppose this brings up the more general problem with many online courses where tests are not proctored and the teachers do not have regular spontaneous verbal interactions with students.