We had our first run-in where using what Leta Hollingsorth calls "benign chicanery" would have been helpful. Our (cantankerous) local librarian refused to allow DS17mo to attend the story time hour for older children, but he would be bored stupid by the books the babies are read. While I dislike lying, I can see that creative disclosure of age may be necessary going forward...

How did you address set age limits in extracurriculars (ETA: removed school)? Did you charge ahead and change the system, did you fudge birthdays, or do something else? I'm not particularly troubled by the example I gave, but I would like to have a default strategy going forward.

I'm all ears. (Eyes.)

We have the advantage that our kids are huge for age, so we often just don't get asked the question. When my 3rd was barely two I was being asked "So she's 3.5? 4?"... She would have been a small 4, but her behaviour matched her physical size (er, her congnitive development, not her egotistical 2yr old behaviour). I am not sure how I would have gone lying about my kids age though, because they are so inclined to tell everyone "I'm 3!! That there's a 3, that's my number..." etc. Of course when she was 2 she was declaring that she was 6...

Well personally, I don't like lying...benign or not. It sets an example for your child that it is okay to lie to get what they want or need. If people really aren't going to be flexible about such a minor thing...fine. Go read to him yourself, or invent your own story time with friends. If it is a big thing in the future that matters, advocate, pave the road for others behind, brings reasons forward while it is okay.

And really, for as advanced as your child may be, reading or otherwise...kids love stories, and being read to around other kids. Regardless of age level. I mean my Ds5 is now reading fifth grade books, but he still loves his beginner readers. Those stories, rhymes, and humor still get to him at some level of enjoyment. Just because he can enjoy much higher level reading, doesn't mean he always has too. If he has the full range of possibilities he won't get too board in a once a week setting.

But you child will pick up that is it okay to lie...and that is a slippery slope, imo.

Thanks Mumofthree and phey for sharing your thoughts. Much appreciated.

I've never lied about my son's age, but I HAVE explained his exceptional abilities (both mental and physical) before and had great success with that approach. I would never, ever condone lying about or in front of a child. I agree that if you're not asked, it's fine not to tell for something like this...but I definitely would not "fudge" a child's age in a situation where he/she would know about it. I agree that your child--ESPECIALLY because he is gifted--will learn that it is okay to lie, and you really don't want to set that precedent.

KristinaS, you make excellent points. Thanks for weighing in.

I should note that my son is just a presumptive giftie at this point...

For subsequent posters, let's just keep this question to the realm of casual extracurriculars. I'm playing devil's advocate in my OP, but there is really no substitute for honest advocacy in any serious endeavour.

Thanks!

I have found most things to be more relaxed than that at the pre-school level at least. My older was big for age. When he was four I was told both my kids are small (the youngest is) because they were assuming he was six. My youngest who is a smallish nearly four is usually taken to be a very small nearly five
I wouldn't lie but I would certainly not volunteer his age or ask unless his age is obvious.

aquinas I think if you can just join in, not mention it and successfully "pass" - then ignore the age thing. But I do tend to just wait until we are "allowed" to do things where I have to put age in writing on an enrollment form... Or I hunt around for someone that accepts younger kids (ie my youngest goes to a different ballet school that start from 2, not 3). Her "ballet" is hilarious, but she's having fun...

I am going to be the dissenting opinion here We have jumped age categories before, with the attitude of "ask forgiveness, not permission." I am generally a very law-abiding citizen, but I have a hard time following rules that seem totally arbitrary, as age rules often are. What does it really tell you about my child if you know he is "12"? Does he have the same physical, social, and emotional maturity as all other 12 year olds?

If my child looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, I will put him in a story-time with other ducks with no reservation or guilt, and no need to spend a half hour trying to convince the duck librarian to let him join, while the duck librarian secretly rolls her eyes at me and my gifted duckling.

Now, that being said, I've never falsified school documents or anything like that, but in these more informal settings, I don't see any problem with a little benign chicanery. If you had asked me this 12 years ago, I may have answered differently.

sign me,
Lying Liar

Another perspective: we left a music class for 4-5 year olds that DS had loved because two musically gifted kids entered his class as 2.5 year olds. When their parents could get them to fully participate, yeah, I could see why they wanted to be there instead of the 2-3 class. However, these kids were 2, and very much 2 in following directions, gross motor skills, and paying attention skills.

For a lot of these classes, there's more to the class than the advertised content. These secondary skills don't always develop alongside the development of the talents. Often these have consequences for the other kids in the class. I was really sympathetic to their situation, but they were not only disruptive to the class, but my son didn't get the same peer-to-peer interaction that we were seeking in through the class experience.

Instead, we've aimed for classes where my kids are at the lower end of the age range or are targetted for a very broad range of kids or are leveled (like swim lessons). This stuff gets easier as the kids get a bit older.

Geofizz - this is part of why I found a ballet class that does officially allow 2yr olds. Yes my 2yr old behaves a lot more like the 4yr olds in the class than the other 2yr olds. But she's still 2 and still has her 2yr old moments. Well actually now she's three... Its very interesting watching the class, she's the only one in the whole class that has picked up that a curtsey involves one leg crossed behind the other, rather than pointing out one foot then the other. She can't actually do it of course, but she does cross her legs and attempt to squat quite hilariously, while the other children do something completely different (more like each other and less like the teacher), and there are 5yr olds in her class. BUT she's also the one least likely to pay attention in the class, most likely to attempt to hang upside from the rail, etc... Although my recent lectures on watching teacher the whole time and doing everything teacher asks have been paying dividends... Being in a 2-5yr old class is really the best call for her at 2-3. When she's 3.5-4 we'll move her to a more serious school that starts at 3.5. If she still wants to go.

When it comes to extracurriculars, our experience has generally been that the instructors are very flexible about placement. A big part of this is DD is extremely attentive and on-task at all times. This makes a big impression on the instructors.

DD had a particular dance teacher at ages 4-5. This teacher approached us with the idea of bumping her up to the 6-8 group on her own.

DD started guitar lessons at 6. The teacher had never had a student that young, but he decided to give it a try.

DD at 7 did a trial at both drama classes for different age groups, 5-7 and 8-up. Afterwards, she asked DW to sign her up for the older group. The request was made to the teacher, who responded, "Sure! She certainly seems mature enough."

Now if only her actual schools would see what everyone else sees...

I'm really sympathetic to both POVs here. I considered putting DS (just turned 5) in a chess club that was 6 and up recently. He certainly can play like a 6yo (and there IS no chess club for his age). However, he still often reacts like a just turned 5yo when he loses. And my older DD has frequently been very frustrated by the "leveling down" that occurs when younger sibs take part or hang out in relaxed classes she has participated in. It's a hard call.

I was that librarian today and it was hard. I have two gifted children and if someone tells me their child is gifted, I believe them.
However, today after I had started my 30 minute story time for 3.5-5 year olds a mother walked her 2 year old in, plunked her down and left.
It left me with a room of 3.5-5 year olds who knew the rules and what to expect plus a 2 year old who didn't know the rules, missed her mother, and was distracting to the other children. No doubt this child has a laundry list of wonderful qualities but I had to stop the story time for her and make the other children wait while I found her mother because she just wasn't capable of sitting and listening.

I think it is fair to ask if your child can try something that they are not in the age range for but it is not fair to lie or cheat your way in. It is also unfair to ask an activity leader to break the rules because the rules are there for a reason. A rule broken for one becomes a useless rule, others will cite the time that they let XYZ child in and why did they get better treatment? It's a slippery slope.

I've been on both sides. I have had the child who needed more, I just found that the best way to get that more was to either ask or find it somewhere else if I was told no. Raising a gifted child is not easy and finding the right resources can be difficult. We did story time occasionally and dd always enjoyed it but it wasn't until dd got into Montessori that her input needs were met on a regular basis. We muddled through a lot until she went to school.

I guess my point is...we can't expect others to bend to meet our childrens needs. If they will, great. If they can't, seek other experiences.

I really appreciate everyone taking the time to share their experiences. It's giving me good perspective on both sides of the coin.

Right now, we're only enrolled in one activity-- a playful group music class-- and he's at the low end of the recommended age range and the youngest in the class. The fit is ideal socially and intellectually because he's naturally outgoing, is cooperative, and stays on task well. The other children are only 6-12 months his senior, which I think is a wide enough gap for the time being.

We're 4 months into the activity and the children are now relaxed enough to let their personalities shine. I see DS trying to gently coach other children when they don't understand the activity and reaching out to others for collaboration. It's a good fit at this age because he's able to be a quiet leader in the group.

He'll be one month shy of the age cutoff for the next age range in the fall, and I plan to keep him with the same cohort because the group's chemistry is good.

ETA: I will not be asking permission, as I've seen people with the same proximity to age cut-offs turned down.

No, you're a far, far cry from "that" librarian, daytripper. Your post belies a sensitivity and sense of nuance that was missing in our librarian. We received an openly scornful scowl, which was delivered with a note of schadenfreude as she shut down someone she believed to be a stereotypical pushy parent.

Thankfully, the library time incident is no big deal. We just won't do that activity. That librarian is only one member of an otherwise stellar group of children's librarians.

No. If you were "that librarian" at our library, you'd be talking to everyone, regardless of age, as if they were 4 years old. ;-)


You probably wouldn't have had any issue with it being a 2yo if the parent stayed and supported their child as necessary. In other words, it's not the inappropriate placement, it's lazy parenting that's the real issue.

DW and I see this sort of thing all the time, and it makes our blood boil. Like at the soccer field... kids not dressed appropriately for the weather, not wearing shin guards, not wearing cleats, don't have any water... UUUUGGGH!

Bingo!!!

And...if there's poor fit, you must quit.

with ongoing extracurriculars, we've found that when the age-grouping isn't working, it gets so obvious that someone (instructor/librarian/kid/us) speaks up.

it's happened over and over, but my best example involves dance. this fall, our girl (then 4) told us she wanted to quit dance, which was odd, considering she'd been begging to be allowed to take an extra ballet class all the prior year. i brought this up with the teacher, who said she'd like to move DD into a class with 7-8 year olds. i was a bit freaked out, and frankly so was the kid, but she went and tried the class - and it's been just right, even if she looks like a total munchkin beside those girls!

Hi there. I agree with the "fudging" of ages being wrong, and also the pushing of ages. One thing if the instructor asks the child to bump up (ie "doubtful guest"'s experience, and another poster's experience), but otherwise, I believe it is wrong and you should look elsewhere. I say this as the parent of gifted children, who could EASILY move up to higher groups, but also as the parent of children who has been so incredibly irritated by younger children pushing their way into older groups. They may not belong from an ability-standpoint, even if their parents think they do, but they really don't belong from a peer standpoint. Even being in the shoes of a gifted parent, and knowing my kids can go up, I can swear to you that my older, gifted children really don't want to be surrounded by younger children in these activities. There are age brackets for a reason. Sometimes these activities are also fun social opportunities for kids. Picture yourself, with your 3 year old. Would you want them in class with a 1 year old, regardless of how genius that baby might be? Probably not. Fast forward to when they are 7. Do they want to be in class with a 4 year old? Probably not. It's not just about what your child gets out of it, but think about if your child is hampering the positive experience of others. I've almost never seen the kids who were pushed upwards to be anything but utterly annoying to the older kids. Breaking the rules is not a good idea. And I offer this as someone who is frequently tempted to push my kids up. However, if your child is proactively invited to move up, that's great!! (Although again, I think it's fair to take a few moments to think about whether they will be fully welcomed and appreciated by the other paying families who are within the rules--who wants to be the annoying family that irritates everyone? It's easy enough to provide stimulation for your kids). My two cents, I realize it may be controversial!!!! Good luck.

Their perceptiveness is reassuring!


Thanks for sharing your thoughts, C squared. I see value in hearing opinions on both sides of the issue and appreciate your thoughtful input.