I recently had a very bad experience with Wolf7 and am wondering what other parents of overly aware kids would have done in the situation.

He is in an Independent Study Program and we wanted to be involved in the science fair. Our program doesn't do one on it's own (well after this it does, but I'll get to that) so we were sent to a local elementary school to participate with their 3rd graders. Ten kids from the school fair would go on to the county science fair. K-3 gets no monetary awards at the county level and does not go on to state. The school fair does not give out any awards. So he set up his project at the school with the 29 or so other project from K-5, did the interview with the scientists and that would have been that, if Wolf was a "normal" kid.

He isn't though, not even close. He looked at the other projects just like I did. He KNEW he was going to county fair. His wasn't the best compared to the older kids, but he was definitely in the top 15% and 33% of the kids were going to county.

Then I got the email listing who was going on to county. Over half the kids on the list were the kids of the parents on the Science Fair Committee. In fact, to my knowledge, not one of their kids did not continue on.

I didn't tell Wolf. I couldn't. I mean how do you explain THAT to a kid who is emotionally 7 years old? How do you do it and not ruin their innocence, their trust in the system, their trust in adults to do the right thing? Yes, it's a lesson that needs to be learned, but not at 7 years old...

I ended up talking to his teacher and she contacted the county science fair about it, explaining that his project deserved to be at the fair and that she could understand why the school might have wanted to only send their students. The county fair said that it would be fine for our program to send him, so that's what we did. However we didn't tell him about that part. He thought he went on from the school fair.

He's thrilled, we set up at the science fair, and lo and behold the head of the school science fair committee walks up to us with a look that could kill an elephant. Here is a condensed version of the discussion which took place right in front of Wolf.

Woman: venomously "Interesting seeing you here."

Me: "Well Wolf's teacher thought his project merited going on so she contacted the county science fair committee about it. They said he should be here, so here we are."

Woman: growing visibly more upset by the moment "Oh really."

Me: feeling overwhelmed and flustered by her illogical animosity "Don't worry, we won't be going through your school anymore for the science fair anymore. It was a little disconcerting when all of the committee's kids got sent on to county."

Woman: Not even attempting to not look irate, not astonished that I would think that, but more along the lines of pissed that anyone had called them on it. "That is NOT how it happened. I'm going to go and tell the committee about your decision right now!" She storms off...

Wolf got an award, several of the kids from the school did not, so obviously his project deserved to be there. What really gets me though, is that we are talking about a 3rd grade science fair project here! Admittedly the school we went through is a high income area school, lots of scientists, this woman's kids both did projects that required expensive, esoteric, hard to come by scientific equipment, and so on, but at 3rd grade there is nothing to be gained, no further steps, the county fair is it. Wolf deserved to be there, he was thrilled by getting there and winning an award. How could she be so pissed about him being there? How could she dump all that nastiness with him right there?

Wolf asked what was going on, but I deflected the question and had to leave for the interviews. He asked me about it again later when we were viewing all the projects. I finally told him that even though I let him watch Star Wars and violent things, that there were some things that adults did that I don't feel are ok for kids to know about. That you can't unlearn certain lessons and that I wanted him to be a kid and be innocent of those things for as long as possible. Then I told him that if he remembered and asked me when he was 10 or 12 I'd tell him then. He was annoyed, but didn't argue.

So what would you have done, from start to finish if possible? I want to advocate for my son, but at the same time I really do feel that some lessons really need to wait for the emotional maturity to handle them if that can be managed. How do you deal with parents like that?

Oh my goodness, Wyldkat, that is just so awful! So sorry you and your DS had to be exposed to such viciousness. If you ask me, her comments suggest that they did in fact purposely exclude your son even though they knew he deserved to go to the fair.

As for how you dealt with it, I think you did fine! I agree, age 7 seems young for that lesson in injustice, especially since kids that age (especially the gifted ones!) have a hard time with unfairness. He will learn that lesson soon enough, imo!

I think you advocated for your son just fine by discussing the situation with the teacher. And I would avoid that school like the plague in the future. I love how she went off to "tattle" on you to the rest of the committee. I mean really, get a grip people!

I would have had exactly the same conversation - or like to think I would have! - that you did. There is absolutely no need for a 7yo to know the intricacies of what happened. I think it's appropriate for a 7yo to know that some adults are not as respectful or considerate as we expect people to be, and that's not a good thing, but there's no reason for a 7yo to know more than that, or to understand how he and his science project played into that. Really - an adult being jealous of a 7yo's science project doesn't even make sense when you try to apply logic to the situation.

Thanks for replying. I've had people telling I should explain it all to him, people saying I shouldn't, people saying I did the right thing, people saying I should have just let the whole thing slide and so on. Most of them didn't understand that Wolf KNEW that he deserved to go on. There's a difference between "I am as awesome as sliced bread" and "I know the quality of my work in comparison to the other projects." He was commenting on them based on the judging criteria! I've just been torn as to whether it was the right thing to do.

I think that YOU are Wolf's mpther and YOU know what is best for him to know or not know about the way the world really works. What happened to him was wrong and you were able to give him an experience he earned regardless of "those people". He can learn about that when YOU feel he is ready to handle it. YOU are his mother.

It's a really difficult situation. I think I might have acted as you did; but honestly, I think it might have been better to let it go when he wasn't put forward for county (i.e. discourage his teacher from taking it further). Judgments of this kind often seem unfair to people who lose out by them. Sometimes they really are unfair (not necessarily through malice); sometimes, people who lose out simply lack understanding of what they didn't do right; sometimes the judgment involves so much subjectivity that there really isn't answer; of course these aren't really alternatives, it's a spectrum.

As you've discovered, fighting a decision when you consider it unfair can have a downside even if you are right and even if you succeed (and what you experienced is far from the worst that could happen; here one assumes this was an isolated unpleasantness, but imagine a teacher from the school mentioned Wolf's name in a context of "imagine what this pushy mother did" to someone who remembers it later when you need a favour from them... I mean, here's hoping this is balanced by the possibility that someone remembers Wolf's great science fair entry, but ykwim: there are risks).

What I think might have been a more prudent path would have been to say to Wolf that you're surprised too that he didn't get put forward, and that you don't understand it either on the basis of the rubric, and encourage him to ask politely for feedback on what he could do better another time. And then, if still convinced that there was unfairness, absolutely avoid entering via that school in future!

I really would run a mile from telling Wolf that he didn't get put forward because the committee favoured their own children. It seems vanishingly unlikely that they consciously did so; far more likely, they had a collective view, different from yours and Wolf's, of what constituted a good entry, which had been established among them and which therefore their children met and Wolf didn't. Since Wolf did better at the county fair than some of their children, it looks as though their collective view didn't coincide with what the people judging there were looking for, but this doesn't imply that the committee at school level were being dishonest. Frankly I don't think assuming dishonesty in other people where there isn't absolutely cast-iron evidence is a thing to encourage. Cockup is really a lot more common than conspiracy, and in any case, assuming that other people are often incompetent is less damaging to the psyche than assuming that they are often malicious ;-)

Welcome to how "science" is done today. If you do not have a PHD then no matter how good your work is, you are at best a "naturalist." If you do not have a multimillion dollar budget and grants that bring in money to support the huge infrastructure, then you are ignored.

These people think the money and infrastructure and connections automatically mean success and it infuriates them when they get poked in the eye by some bumpkin they never heard of.

There is not much you could have done better when faced with the venality you described.

I'd support your kids and come back the next year with another entry.

I'd also look up the AMC8/10/12 tests and aim to do well on those if your kids want a STEM career.


I agree with this. We are direct to Mr W about most things like this. He is extremely perceptive and notices anyway. We do not want him to develop the wrong idea about things. Back when most people grew up on a farm, life and death and power struggles were played out among the farm animals and in nature and kids learned early. We tend to try to protect kids these days.

Honestly, I would have let it go when he did not get picked. I don't doubt you about the quality of the projects, but I would have been uncomfortable trying to go around the decision of the committee, even if it was a poor one. And if my child protested--and she would--I would have explained that sometimes judgements as to merit aren't what we expect, and that's the way life goes. I also would have talked to her about how SHE felt about her project, and what the point of doing the project was (for her to learn).

Crap like this does happen. It happens often, in fact. While I definitely would not talk to my child about my feelings that the committee was biased towards their own kids--I would find that inappropriate in a lot of different ways--I would indeed acknowledge that grown-ups are hardly infallible and that I thought her project should have been chosen.

IMHO (just what you needed, another opinion

I wouldn't necessarily tell him he didn't make it though the school competition. But I think I would discuss that woman's behavior. Something like "do you remember that woman who spoke with us at the science fair competition? Underneath all that anger, she was just scared. Maybe she's scared that her school isn't strong enough, maybe she's scared that her child was going to get "shown up" by your project, maybe she's scared of something else. We'll never know. But WE didn't do anything wrong."

Because I truly do believe that beneath that anger was fear.

eta: And it sounds like your Wolf is the kind of kid that parents are going to compare their children to and find them behind. He will need to learn sooner rather than later that weirdness from other parents is likely from their own insecurity.

I would learn toward giving him a filtered version of the truth. You could relate it to the legal process, i.e. you disagreed with the lower court's decision (the other school's committee). You appealed to your teacher who overturned the committee's decision and allowed his project to proceed to the county level. At this point, he knows something is up and probably is coming up with much worse scenarios in his own head -- mine certainly would.

I probably wouldn't have pushed it either to go on to the county fair. It would have been a big leap for me to assume why certain projects were chosen and others weren't. Since he really wanted to go on, you had another avenue and took it. I'm surprised the other lady didn't leave it alone as well.

Most of the projects at my DD6s fair at a small private school were demos vs actually attempting to answer a question. Some judges like to see things hand-written vs electronic and assume powerpoint help was given by parents whether that was the case or not. There were many interesting projects and it had to be tough to judge. Last year DD6 (then 5) continued on, this year she didn't.

At DD11 district science fair, I saw such a variety of projects I had no idea how they judged. At her school fair, where she got interviewed she won 1st in her category. At the district with no interviews, she got honorable mention (ie 5th place? maybe). The boy she beat at her school got 1st. So it's really just a crap shoot.

I've tried to just tell them any time something is "judged" subjectively you just never know and just to deal with it.

FWIW I learned this lesson via roller skating at an early age, maybe 5-7. And yes I was in tears at one point because of the fairness but I came back and made sure there were no questions the next time. I'm not sure with a bright kid that 7 is too young to talk about it. Also FWIW, I'm a scientist and this is why I HATE science fair even though I love doing experiments. The dog and pony show never appealed to me.....

I really feel for you and your son - it's never fun to be in a situation where there is a downside to any path you choose. But if your son benefitted from the experience, then you likely made the right decision to push forward.

The only thing I might suggest considering is that children, especially highly intelligent children, are often quite perceptive and understand when things are wrong. And when they don't have enough facts, the information they conjure to fill the void of understanding can often be more damaging than a simplified version of the truth.

I remember being in a similar situation with my daughter, and I think I told her something like, "You know, it's really kind of sad, but sometimes grownups haven't learned all the lessons they should have learned in elementary school about being polite and kind and considerate of others. And that's what you witnessed. It doesn't look very good on a grown up, does it? And, you know, whenever I get after you for maybe being mean or impatient with a friend, now you know why. I want you to be able to be the kind of grownup that isn't unkind to other people."

Your son doesn't need to know the source of the mother's bad behavior, or that his being there had anything to do with it. But he did witness bad behavior, and having that not only acknowledged but put into perspective may actually help him feel more secure, not less.

Again, just a thought - take it or leave it as it fits your own style and knowledge of your own child.

If your son likes to read about science you could also start to guide him towards books/stories about science that incorporates history and people. My DD first got the hint about badly behaving adults and science with a book or two about the drama of paleontology over history and the tweaking of the truth and stealing each other's work etc. I don't remember any of the names of the books, this was from a couple of years ago. Also some children's biographies of scientists include their dealings with other people or living in a particular country that made it difficult to do their work, or others stealing their work and using it for evil instead of good, and how it upset the original scientist or the teams. Alot of gifted kids seem to like the good versus evil concept (my DD never tires of it) and how big, important people and young kids alike all have to deal with it maybe every day.

Back when they were doing multiplication in class, parents had to write down on a form how many minutes your child spent studying that day's x , sign the form and send it in the next morning. Well, the first x was 1...so I put 5 minutes just so it wouldn't be blank. We all had a good chuckle. The next day DD reported that the teacher gave money to the child that had 30 minutes, because it was the most time of everyone, and each day the child who had the most minutes got money.

Well, don't you know...the minutes reported by classmates, they started increasing by leaps and bounds. We just kept the course though, however long it took it took (not very long, I believe in manybe 5-10 minutes a few times per day and maybe concentrating on the ones she might be getting stuck on). Anyway, she said one day that a fellow student got the money that day because she had 120 minutes. DD was lamenting she still hadn't gotten the money. I asked, "how long is 120 minutes?" and she said, "2 hours" and I said, "do you really think she spent 2 hours on the 4x table last night? She has swim team and dance on that day too, and regular homework." DD just strugged. I said if she REALLY wanted to, she could try and "beat" that time to see if she could win the money tomorrow, but she REALLY had to spend that amount of time on the x that night (now over two hours as a minimun, to beat that 120 minutes....) because I wasn't going to lie on the form. Anyway, DD opted to play with legos instead over and above homework and time for x, and I haven't heard about it since!

At first, second, and third read of your original post, I agreed that you handled this in the best way -- you are your DS's advocate and you knew he deserved to have his work put forward. Especially since your DS was not a student at the school, I think contacting the proper people for the county contest was appropriate. However, after reading some of the comments, I would caution you to avoid saying that certain projects only went forward because of who there parents are. My DD has been on the receiving end of middle school bullying with comments like these. After winning a school speech contest which sent her on to the district, she intercepted a note between two of her classmates saying "________ only won because they didn't want to have to listen to her Mom." My DD was the clear winner as selected by more than a majority vote of all of her classmates and by disinterested adults selected by her GT teacher. This was very hurtful to a child who put her best effort forward, did wonderful work, and ended up placing 2nd in the district on the same speech.

I became a teacher within the year after 9/11/01, resolved to tell my students The Truth. In general, that policy has been pretty useful, but it's not that simple.

At some point in my first two years of teaching, though, I found myself in a moment where I was not going to tell my 5th graders what was going on. The intercom announced that the school was on lockdown, as it had been for three weeks while the Beltway Snipers were at large. I kept teaching, but stepped out into the hallway when another adult came by to find out what was going on.

It seemed a call to district headquarters had threatened to detonate bombs in 12 unnamed schools at noon. The district leadership had chosen to respond to this threat by locking all the children in all the schools until after noon. FWIW, they had also send cops around to search classrooms and ask teachers if they had noticed anything unusual. But as soon as I heard this, I said, "I'm not going to tell the students that."

Perhaps I find incompetent leadership more terrifying than terrorists. Well, that leadership has been replaced a couple of times since then. That job was always a hot potato.

I am sorry your ds had to hear the person from the other school get upset - and I'd probably have explained it to him from the perspective of letting him know that when the other school decided who would go to the county fair they chose to only send kids who attended their school. If he heard her saying things that were obvious that she was upset that he was at the fair with his project, I'd just honestly say "I don't know why she's upset" (because honestly, there could be a number of reasons - unless someone definitively told me that yes, the judging committee at the school purposely played favorites in giving the top spots to their children, I just wouldn't leap to that conclusion).

I'd also like to add a perspective coming from the point of view of someone who's been a judge at our state science fair - I'm a scientist and was a judge for a number of years. It may *look* like some projects are clearly "more worthy" of awards based on how they look in the presentation setup, and some projects are just inherently more interesting and in-depth looking up front. A large part of how we judged projects hinged on our interviews with the kids, as well as whether or not they were following the guidelines we had in place. I was never able to walk into a room full of projects and at casual glance see that project x was clearly more deserving than project y until I'd had a chance to talk with the students who put the projects together. Another science fair phenomena is that projects are basically unlimited in nature - anything that qualifies as science is usually accepted as a topic (as long as it doesn't involve torturing living animals). At our state fairs we always have multiple categories for awards sponsored by groups who have some type of science affiliation with an interest in specific areas. A project that received the highest award from one group might not get recognition at all from a different group - there were always many many great projects. Whether or not a project deserved to have an award is absolutely somewhat subjective, and going to depend on what the person judging is looking for - that doesn't mean one project is inherently better than another, and I think that's something I might want to emphasize with my own child. You mentioned that he could see his project was more worthy than others - I would take that as an opportunity to talk to him about how the other projects have merit too.

I'd also just like to put out there - science fairs can become so political in some parents' eyes but the primary reason there are science fairs is because people who love science want to encourage kids who love science to study science. Science fairs aren't the only place in life where kids are going to run into pushy parents or people who think they deserve more of an award than someone else or where they may feel slighted when an award is given out to someone else. I think it's helpful to put that into perspective - all of that is "noise" - what I'd really want my kids to take away is that they came up with an idea, they worked the project through, they learned something, they participated. Whether or not they one an award isn't the point, and whether or not they were chosen to go on isn't the point. When you focus on that, and then run into a parent who's gone over the cliff for whatever reason, I'd just be up front with my child and point out, that parent seems to be over-reacting.

polarbear

Oh, what a sad/unfortunate incident! Right off the bat, I'll agree it was bizarre and horrible for this woman to approach you so nastily in front of your small child. Yikes! Completely inappropriate!

As to opinions on how it could have been handled, I admit that I personally probably wouldn't have pushed to go on to the county fair. It sure sounds wrong that the judges are primarily comprised of competitors' parents (why not teachers? or other disinterested parties?), but I still think it is unfair to leap to the accusation that they were biased in selecting the winners. Just by the very definition of "judging" a science fair, there is subjectivity involved, and we can always have our doubts as to the purity of someone's motives, but we can't know for sure.

This is a common complaint in my town ("Susie should clearly have made varsity soccer over Joanie,", etc), but it can just be so hard to say sometimes. But, given that you were at the competition, when she snidely said she was surprised to see you, I think I would have leaned towards smiling back extra-graciously, and saying, "Oh, it's nice to see you, too."

As for what to let your child in on, it sounds like he overheard enough to understand the gist. Since he heard you say to the woman, "It was a little disconcerting when all of the committee's kids got sent on to county.", he knows what you are implying. So rather than tell him that you'll explain in 3 years, maybe I'd give a simplified, toned-down version to him now. But it is a great opportunity to talk about subjectivity, and how some books win Pulitzer Prizes, while some incredibly talented, brilliant literary critics think they are awful, etc. Things aren't always black & white. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, etc.

Good luck, and I'm sorry you had to go through that!!

Thank you everyone for your input.

To be clear, the idea that his project was in the top 15% of the ones at the school fair was based on the science fair's judging criteria and thoroughly reading all the projects, not just based on how the boards looked or even what the projects were. I wasn't there for the interviews though obviously. If it had even been a close issue, I wouldn't have pushed it, but it honestly wasn't even close. It wasn't an, "Oh, you have a decent chance" type thing, it was more of an "It will rain frogs from the sky in December in Northern Canada if you don't go on" type thing. Anything less than that and I would have just let it slide. I hate confrontation and I believe is learning through failure. Trust me, I didn't do this because I wanted him to win anything. It's K-3, there isn't anything to win except maybe a ribbon and Wolf has tons of those.

Also it wasn't just some of the committee's kids, to my knowledge is was every single one that went on. Yes, it is possible that they all earned their spots with merit, but that was not the feel that I got from the situation (or viewing the projects) or the woman's reaction at all. I also got the very distinct feel from talking to some people at the school after the fair that they did not feel that Wolf had done the project mostly on his own (which he did). I don't think they have ever dealt with a kid like him before and I'm afraid him being himself and doing his personal best might have ... colored the results some.

After reading all your responses I think I probably should talk to Wolf about how the woman reacted at the fair. He does know that he went to the county fair representing his program and not the school, he just doesn't know the details of it. I think that not clarifying the details is probably still the best idea though. He gets anxious about adult "issues" and I don't feel he's emotionally ready to handle that judging isn't always fair. He'd good at dealing with disappointment, but is still a very black and white, right and wrong thinker when it comes to the concept of "fair." He's happy he got to go, happy he won an award, and he enjoyed the whole process. Adding more negativity onto it at this point might dim that and I want to avoid that. As it is, the whole thing has sort of turned me off urging him to participate next year even though we won't be going through the school.

We entered it to do the project, to learn, to have fun, NOT to have a lesson in human misbehavior.

Totally OT, but wouldn't it have been wiser to clear the schools BEFORE noon rather than locking everyone into a potentially bombed school until AFTER noon?

Wyldkat, I can't offer much but sympathy. I do think I would have given him a very watered-down explanation of what happened, as in, "Oh, she was just asking about x, but I told her y, and we don't need to worry about it because it's been taken care of." You still can if (IF) he brings it up again.

It seems to me that there was an obvious conflict of interest in the judging at the school level before the county level!

Wyldkat, I too could not have let something like that pass if I genuinely felt that what you believe occurred, occurred. What I perhaps I would have done differently is that I would have explained to him that he hadn't gotten through via the school process, and that you were surprised given the quality of his project. I would have said that you really felt that his project was deserving and had spoken to the his teacher from his independent learning program, who agreed and that it had been determined he could enter through the program rather than the school. I probably would have explained that these things can be subjective, but that quality work is worth standing up for (which I strongly believe) and that if you know something you've done is worthwhile it is worth investigating all the angles.

Re the woman, I would like to think that I would have been ultra gracious and let her know Wolf had been entered through the ILP, and wished her children luck - but in reality I probably would have ended up saying something along the lines of what you did.

In terms of the lesson about injustice, I'd probably couch it instead in terms of a discussion about the implications of subjectivity and its existence being the reason you need to stand up for work you believe in (including the importance of feedback from others to make sure you're really on track). Rarely (if ever?) are things ever genuinely chosen 100% on merit.

Wow. Its too bad some parents are like this. I think I would have handled it the same way with a 7 yr old. However, my daughter dances competitively and experienced something similar at a dance convention when she was 9. She learned choreography and performed a jazz dance combination with over 100 other dancers in her age group and won 1st prize and a $300.00 scholarship. A parent of a friend later grabbed her arm in class while she was stretching out, told her that she knew she did not attend every class that weekend and would tell the judges in an attempt to get her disqualified. However, it was not required to attend every class to audition and win the scholarship... So she did not get anywhere with that.

Can you believe a parent actually got physical with my daughter over this??? I did explain in detail to my dd that the other parent's actions were wrong, why they were wrong, and what I felt an appropriate response and way of handling a situation such as this would be. I did not confront the other parent- but I did report her actions to the competition and studio owner. It seems I did not have to do this because others who were watching were shocked and had already reported the incident.

It is amazing how low some parents can sink regarding kid's activities....

I always remind my dd now in dance that she should not be intimidated by this type of stuff. Just as there is always someone better than you- you are always going to be better than someone else. The only way to eliminate unreasonable jealousy from these type of individuals is by purposely doing worse. However the problem would still exists... because you would still be better than someone out there... so keep doing your best because you can't change how people act.

Moral of story- do your best, be kind to others, and let the chips fall where they may..

Wow... That's amazing and not in a good way at all.

I think if Wolf were nine I would have been more forthcoming with him. He didn't witness any of it other than that woman's comments. He still has that innocence, the safe sincere belief that adults' have got it together. With how smart he is I know it won't last long.