I just got my child's tests results back on the SBV and the WIAT II. And I am confused (hence the screen name).

SBV
NV IQ: 141
V IQ: 153
FS IQ: 149

Wiat II
Word Reading: 126 (96%)
Numerical Operation* 136 (99%)
Math Reasoning: 127 (96%)

*Out of test range scored by hand. Mid second grade level

My child was tested before entering kindergarten (5-9).

I'm wondering if my child would potentially qualify for the YSP given these scores (I'm waiting on a call from a rep at DI). My child doesn't read well (mid first grade level I'm told) and in fact more or less hates it. But loves math. Does multiplcation and division.

Does the fact that my child doesn't like to read hurt their Achievement score and therefore hurt their chances for the YSP. The tester's comments were "Because math reasoning was so easy, I decided to give the written calculation portion which should only be administered after a child has entered kindergarten". It also mentioned that the tester had my child "read some of the first grade tests of the reading and comprehension sub-test which they could have completed had the test scored out of grade/age range" Final comment "Age norms allowed me to calculate a normative score of 136, 99th percentile, mid-second grade level"

So what the heck does all that mean???

Thanks,
CP

My son read words (by sight) and favorite books (by memory and sight) before he was two (probably by 18 months).

He is almost 11 now, but is terrible at sounding out unfamiliar or nonsense words even though he has had extensive phonics training in 1st-2nd grade (the classical stuff with coding).

I would guesstimate that his oral reading is high average, but know that his silent reading for comprehension (using context clues) is through the roof!

He really started reading for fun around the second half of 1st grade when his reading skills finally began to meet his reading interest level. That was the key! Although, he did the work, he had no interest in the grade level easy reader books with subjects such as a dog and a ball!

Now he reads at least 500 pages per week for fun. We have to constantly tell him to stop reading! I know there are worse problems to have.

There are many different ways to evaluate reading. With scores like your son�s, his reading will probably take off soon!

Hi CP -
Just one other thing to confuse you further - does your son have any vision problems? Apparently the regular optomatrist's visit isn't enough - there is a special branch called behavioral optomatry that evaluates how well the muscles that control the lenses work. Many find this useful, many find this snake oil - but I figured that you'd like to know.

On the other hand, you say that your K aged child doesn't read well in that he is only scoring mid first grade. My son, also a YSP, was in the 2nd highest reading group in first grade, and didn't get to the "Magic Tree House" type books until the end of first grade. He also had trouble with catching a ball, riding a bike, and had learned his letters and their sounds very early at age 2. The gap between when he learned his letters, his interest in having complicated books read to him, and his own reading certainly freaked me out. But everyone I asked just teased me as an overprotective new, older, mom. Then there are all the people who might have helped me, but I was afraid to ask by then - not wanting to look like an overprotective Mom. People acted like the problem was "how to calm me down" and not like a 4 year gap between letter recognition and actual reading was any big deal.

In retrospect I think he did have a visual tracking problem, or was at least slow to mature in that area (we certianly did everything wrong regarding too many video games and not enough outside experience) - but I stayed away from "Vision Therapy" because it sounded to "snake oil-ish" to me and DH. If I had gotten him tested earlier, perhaps someone would have suggested it be checked.

In the long run I don't think his reading "delay" did him any harm. But it sure did leave me bitter and distrustful.

Smiles,
Trinity

Are you going by the SBV or WIAT scores to make this comment?

It seems to us that whenever we talk to administrators or other gifted parents they all mention that their children were reading Harry Potter when they were born. Our child could do math well beyond their years and loved to study science but reading, not so much. I hear stories all the time about someones child that taught themselves how to read by the time they were 7 minutes old (sarcasm alert) but I don't hear much about math or science. Even the tester didn't get into multiplication on the achievement test which they would have blown through.

So I'm I missing something? Is reading the standard for gifted kids?

Thanks,
(Still) Confused Parent

By memory, I believe �Losing Our Minds� by Dr. Ruf mentions that early reading usually means some level of gifted. Very early math reasoning often means level 5 (highest)gifted.

Trinity,

I don't think it's a "vision thing" as much as a I think it's a "boring thing". Plus it's a struggle compared to math which comes easy.

As far as the reading level, mid first grade is good but since we have been researching gifted kids it seems like the important thing is reading at a high level.

You mentioned your child is a YSP. My original question was whether these scores were adequate for the program. I think the SBV are fine but I'm not sure if the WIAT scores are. I'm confused by the fact that the scores seem low but are they low for a kindergartner of someone in mid 2nd grade. The confusion I have is with the comments from the tester related to the score.

Teaching oneself to read at an early age is an example of reasoning ability - but by no means the only example of reasoning ability. Many, many gifted kids to teach themselves to read early - but not all by any means. You son may just have "other interests."

There is always a tendency to simplify everything so that we can understand and remember it. Don't let this human quality get you down. You know better!
Trinity

Opps - our posts crossed.
As for YSP - my standard advice is - fill out the application and submit it. Only the YSP folks know exactly what they are looking for - for the exact reason the oversimplifing is so dangerous.

Is your son interested in listening to chapter books, fiction or non-fiction? Does he make up stories? The weirdest thing of all about my DS's late reading is that he is much more of a verbal guy than a mathy guy - with his vocabulary hitting the ceilings as well as his "comprehension" which is about being able to verbalize "why things are the way they are." ((shrug)) Human beings are complicated!

Interesting that you mentioned reading as "boring" - I noticed that in my son also - he hated "baby books" and books with cartoon animals in them. I used to joke that until there started to be early readers with weapons and spacecraft in them, that he wasn't going to be reading. No one used to laugh actually. If you are handy on the computer, you can always try the old - "Here son, I'd like to make a million dollars from writing a book for children who are just starting to read, but I'm stuck on ideas. Will you stand next to me as I type, and give me some good ideas?" You may be able to get somewhere with that approach. Then you can publish you results here and say that the other gifted children loved them and are begging for more. I tried to avoid lying to my kid, but I'm certianly not above a little creative advertising.

As for "what the tester meant" you can either ask him/her or wait for Dottie - I don't have a clue!

Best Wishes,
Trinity

CP,
I didn�t mean for my post to come across as bragging about my son�s early reading- in fact his reading ability seemed/s all over the place depending on how it was/is assessed. What I meant to highlight was the fact that reading assessments for young children seem to focus on sounding out easy and boring words and phrases. As they get older, our students are evaluated more on reading comprehension which may be more important for academic success. These skills do not always coexist.

Early math ability is not as commonly cited among the various levels of intelligence, but may be more indicative of profound intelligence which seems in line with your son�s SBV scores!

Too funny, but true about waiting for Dottie!

Hi there ConfusedParent,

I'm new here: what do YSP and SBV mean?

I'm a confused parent too, as I'm just beginning to grapple with my the education of my kids (oldest is 7).

I think you hit the nail on the head when you said that reading is more of a struggle. As a natural thing, people put the most effort into subjects that are most interesting to them. And if mathematics is very, very easy and very fascinating for your child, he may not be enthusiastic about putting extra effort in somewhere else. Even thought reading may come more easily to him than most other kids, it's still a lot harder *for him* than maths. So he would have a natural preference for maths.

Sometimes we have our kids work at things that *aren't* easy for them. Doing this seems to teach them what can come of a little hard work. You should see them grin when they realize that they can do something that they thought was outside their reach! We do this as a way to help develop study and habits they'll need later on.

Delbows,

I apologize if anything I said insinuated I thought you were bragging. I most definitely did not take it that way. My frustration has been that since we have become recently involved with the local "Gifted" community the parents seem to be so focused on when their children started reading that we began to feel that maybe the IQ test were wrong concerning our child. Maybe he wasn't gifted since he wasn't reading at these advanced levels. Granted he could do multiplication and division early, he wasn't reading. We just never heard mention from these other parents about their children's math ability. And I mean none of them mentioned math. Even in lectures we went to, all reading emphasis. It's comforting to hear that it's not all about reading. It would be nice if some of these lecturers would at least mention math abilities though.

Trintiy, he loves books about weather, anatomy, science, etc but I read them of course and then he wants to discuss it. Discuss it so much that trying to finish a page takes along time with all the questions one must answer (or try to answer, thank goodness for the Internet) Recently he has become fascinated with the speed of light (Don't ask, I don't know where he got that). The other day he gave me a pretty in depth description of Black Holes that I assume he picked picked up from the Discovery Channel or even a cartoon. I have no idea. So you are probably right, he might just find the readers boring. It's getting to the point where my answer to many questions regarding my son is "I have no idea".

Thanks to everyone. BTW, who is Dottie?

Val,

YSP: Young Scholars Program
SBV: Stanford Binet 5

I apologize if my acronyms are wrong. Maybe you can help me. What does the "DD" and "DS" stand for that I see in reference to each person's children?

Hi Confused Parent!

My son is 4 (will be 5 in Nov.) and also loves math and science. He asks endless questions on physics and math and says he wants to be a scientist. He is also not that into reading. His reading is advanced for his age, but he just hasn't caught fire with reading the way his sister did. She's a total bookworm!

Kids are different and have different interests. I don't think your son's current lack of interest in reading means that his SB5 score is wrong! I don't know about YS. We are waiting to apply when DS is 5, but he doesn't *quite* make their cutoff. He took the WPPSI-III a several months ago and missed the YS cutoff by 1 point. So, I guess we'll have to wait and see. It's free to apply, so there's nothing to lose, right?

Cathy

Thanks Cathy. My son says he wants to be a doctor and a daddy (kind of flattering). And a ninja.

Hi Dottie,

I'm glad to meet the resident testing expert. I think I might challenge you for title of "Most Obsessive Parent" when it comes to testing in the near future.

The tester mentioned she went up to 4/5th grade level on some of the test and had to remind herself that he had not even started kindergarten yet. Does that mean the test results might be flawed? Also what does it mean 99th percentile mid second grade? Does that mean he is in the 99th percentile for second graders or 99th percentile for preschoolers and could do second grade material?

Thanks,
CP

Hello to all, I am a newby in this whole gifted realm. It's great to hear you all, because I know my daughter is gifted, but haven't had any testing done as of yet. She is 5, reads real well, and has an insane appetite for science. To the parent that mentioned the science books. We went to a book sale. Sophia picked out 5 books, all science, Plate Tectonics, Bugs, Dinasoars, Planets...

We are unhappy (that is an understatement) with her Kindergarten curriculum so far, and are looking to have her tested and moved. Do you recommend doing testing on our own? Or going through the school system?

K

I reccomend, though I'm only 11, that you should go through the school system. If not, they'll probably make some excuse about it "not being valid".

Dottie,

Do you think we should retest him in a year?

CP

One more question, what does the abbreviation "DD", "DS" mean?

I think it stands for Dearest son (DS) and Dearest Daughter(DD)

Hi CP -
Wow - your discussions sound so Cool! I would never push a child to "listen" when their mind is working.

Your next step is to find a Club that you and DS can attend, on any of the subjects your son enjoys, so that he can talk to enthusiasts. I know of Mineral/Gem Clubs, and Reptile Clubs. I'm sure there are other clubs.

I believe that when you see your DS cross examining these adults at these Clubs, you will get a whole 'nother appreciation of your son.

Parenting these children is like changeing glasses over and over and over again. They are really outside the normal expectation path.

As for the tendency of thinking that being a Parent of a Gifted kid is like joining an "exclusive club of our own" - well, we are all guilty of it from time ot time. Please don't let the feelings of "I don't fit in" stop you from "taking what you like and leaving the rest." All of us grown up ex-gifted children have an "I don't really fit in here" chip on our shoulders, true?

Smiles and big friendly grin,
Trinity

It was something she said when she finished testing him. That she had to remind herself that he hadn't started kindergarten yet and that she had gone as far as 4/5th grade material. She also said that he missed one problem because he didn't realize it was addition and did subtraction instead. He did the subtraction correctly but missed the "+" sign or something like that. Again he has never been formally exposed to any of this in preschool.

Below is the full interpretation of the tests.
----------------------------------------------
Interpretation:
[DS] was evaluated for the purpose of qualifying him for academic programs for gifted
children in town. He presented as a pleasant, personable and energetic youngster who
willingly completed all tasks. Attention, concentration and persistence were excellent.

Examination of test scores by domain, shows that [DS]'s verbal intelligence is slightly
more well-developed than his non-verbal or visual-spatial intelligence. This difference
appears due to slightly weaker scores on non-verbal measures of picture absurdities and
quantitative reasoning. Regarding the latter, to progress to the next level of math in the
test required a jump to use of proportions and comprehension of multiplicative
relationships, a concept to which few kindergartners have been exposed. When spatial
relationships were assessed through tanagram puzzles, [DS] performed well. Analysis
of overall performance shows that [DS] appears to be strongest on measures of fluid
reasoning and working memory whether a verbal or non-verbal format was being used.
Fluid reasoning is particularly important in that it assesses the student's ability to apply
their innate intelligence (and what they have learned) to new situations or learn new
information presented on the spot. Lastly, [DS] exhibited an excellent ability to read
maps, verbally describe directions and relate various orientations.

Academic achievement was assessed using the WIAT-II. Scores are appended at the end
of this report. Given the fact that [DS] has yet to attend Kindergarten, his performance
was excellent, particularly in math. Because math reasoning was so easy for him, I
decided to give him the written calculation portion which should only be administered
once a child has entered kindergarten. Age norms allowed me to calculate a normative
score for [DS]- 136,99th percentile, mid-second grade level. [DS] demonstrated
mastery of basic addition and subtraction operations even completing a double digit
problem correctly. Word reading was great, [DS] demonstrating automization of
phonics and a good ability to self-correct. I had him read some of the fist grade level
texts of the reading comprehension sub-test which he could have completed had the test
scored out of grade/age range.

WIAT II

Word Reading:
Standard Score:126
Confidence Interval: 123-129
Percentile: 96
Age Equivalent: 7:0
Grade: 1:7
Other NCE: 87

Numerical Operations:
Standard Score:136
Confidence Interval: 119-135
Percentile: 99
Age Equivalent: 7:8
Grade: 2:5

Math Reasoning:
Standard Score:127
Confidence Interval: 119-135
Percentile: 96
Age Equivalent: 7:4
Grade: 1:9
Other NCE: 88

SB5
Fluid Reasoning:
NV: 19
V:17

Knowledge:
NV:14
V:19

Quantitive Reasoning:
NV:15
V:18

Visual-spatial Reasoning:
NV: 16
V: 19

Working Memory:
NV:18
V:18

Non Verbal IQ: 141
Verbal IQ: 153
Full Scale: 149

CP,

There is a series of easy reader science books (with substance) by DK entitled EYE WONDER. There are tons of photographs and diagrams with captions along with the text so that a child with some subject experience (and a high IQ) might be able to decipher the words.

Non-Fiction science books on the following topics were my son�s favorite when he was 5-7 years;

Volcanoes
Black holes
Electromagnetic Spectrum
Reptiles
Rocks and minerals
Periodic Table
Atoms

I like Trinity�s suggestion for clubs also. We haven�t found any around here, but ds loves to attend rocks and minerals shows.

Are you considering a grade skip?

Delbows,

We might consider a grade skip. Right now he is with friends in school and hasn't complained of being bored yet. We are going this weekend to try to locate some books like what you suggested.

Hi CP -
at the risk of seeming glib - I would add that right now he has every reason to trust you and other adults - please don't give him reason to loose faith in adult decision making by waiting for the melt down before you take some actions to get his school environment to be a reasonable fit. Not perfect, just reasonable.

Trinity

We have no worries about the school. If is a very gifted aware school. We were just hoping that there might be some additional benefits we might receive having him in the YS program.

Dottie,

Did you get a chance to read my post with the details of my son's testing? Did it answer your question?

CP

I hope you are right. I spoke to YS program rep and she encouraged me to apply and send in some of his work and/or drawings. I'm hoping they can look past the WIAT scores. We'll see.

For anyone who's child is in the program has it proved beneficial?

After reading all this I don't know what to think!!!!
My daughter started reading early and read the Harry potter books, Narnia and unfortunate events and Nancy Drew in her first grade BLAH, BLAH, BLAH BLAH BLAH! But when they tested her for GT, they said she is ok in English but her math is thru the roof!
In math she scored 99 percentile in COGAT and 99 in nonverbal.
She hates writing and especially essays or even paragraphs make her looking around for escape routes!
Yes, riding bike and catching ball weren't enjoyed either!
Some one said in another post, some thing about school being too easy for their son and any subject that he has to put an effort is the hated subject.
That sure describes her!
Now is my daughter gifted in math or reading?

Welcome SunnyMom,
Gifted has no agreed upon definition, but some set the bar at the top 5%, some set it at the top2% - since it has no definition, I urge you to look at the question - "How gifted (different from average) is my child in various areas?"

Here's one method to answer this question -

Dr. Ruf link to help you estimate your child's level of giftedness. The checklists start about halfway down the page.
http://www.educationaloptions.com/levels_giftedness.htm

Getting IQ and Achievement tests in another way. Talent Search tests are a third. It's nice to have a professional's help to tie it all together, provided the professional is competent in your degree of gifted - which is logically, about as rare as your degree of giftedness ((small joke, but sadly true!))

Parenting these kids is wonderful and challenging - post here about both aspects, ok? I'm going to guess that you can't exactly talk freely with your neighbors, yes?

Smiles,
Trinity