I've posted previously about our off/on challenges parenting our very logical, very much "his way," constantly arguing PG son. This morning a thought popped into my head that perhaps there's a book written specifically for children like this -- something that helps them see things from the parents/authority figures viewpoint. Probably wishful thinking on my part. Does anyone know of any such book?

Maybe it would help if you elaborated on the problem, because strong-willed, when coupled with logical, can be a strength, rather than a weakness. That combination of traits is a great insulation against peer pressure later. It can get exhausting explaining the logic behind all of your rules, but the payoff is that the child will often self-enforce once the logic has been accepted.

And sometimes they go overboard with the self-enforcement, like when you explain why they need to wear seat belts, and they start wearing their bike helmets for every car ride, earning you judgmental stares everywhere you go.

I don't know if there is a "boys" version, but we've had good luck with the Smart Girl's Guides (getting along with family, etc).

The Prince by Machiavelli?

p.s. I think I may have misread the question.

We read the graphic novel version of Icarus and Daedalus to emphasize the importance of listening parents regarding safety issues.

ConnectingtheDots, I don't know of such a book, but I'd definitely have DD read it. I'm not sure exactly what you are dealing with, but I have a super-strong-willed one myself. As others have mentioned, it DOES have a potential upside (having some of these qualities as an adult), but definitely not the easiest child to parent.

I have plenty of respect for the upside to these traits, but am trying to figure out how we also help him understand the "seeing others point of view" side of the equation and that it truly isn't necessary to argue Every Single Part of Your Day. (From a future standpoint, in my experience, adults who have strong wills but who learn that there are other points of view/approaches).

Currently, there are a lot of nagging little things. Dinner is never right (thus whining and fussy about what's served and why are we having it again). If he doesn't want to do something (ex. learn to put on soccer apparel, go to bed to sleep/put the book away), it's a battle. Nothing is ever as simple as having it done when one asks. This is in marked contrast to our other child, and frankly, to how my spouse was raised. This isn't going well. I was hoping there was something (besides his parents) that might talk to the point of there being benefits to going along with what one is asked to do by one's parents.

On the plus side, he's not a daredevil and has good respect for safety items (ex. put your seatbelt on before we start the car). He is said to be very kind to his classmates.

I feel for you - my DD sounds similar. The biggest upside is that she is NOT a follower. But yes (sigh), as you say - nothing (dinner, homework, social guidance) is simple and she usually does NOT just take our word for it. If nothing else, you are not alone.

Yes, also in marked contrast to our other child.

If DD9 starts whining, we first ask her, "Are you whining?" as a warning. If she continues, she gets to deposit a dollar in DW's whine jar. DW always acts enthusiastically about receiving the money, and talks about how she could really use it.


Failure to go to bed on time means DD's bedtime moves earlier the next day. We haven't had the issue with books, but when putting away toys became an issue, we started collecting all of the the loose toys and putting them in the garage.


Basically, we demonstrated to DD that we, as parents, are the wellspring of all the wonderful privileges she enjoys, and going along with our reasonable requests ensures continued enjoyment of said privileges. If she has any questions, we'll be happy to address them, though not necessarily at that particular moment, because there may be a need for urgency or discretion.

Actually with the new description, I'd say you can't go wrong with Aesop's Fables and so many fairy tales from around the world. I still every now and then, catch my thoughts and say "Fox in Grapes" to renew my perspective.

But I think viewing behaviors as symptoms makes resolving things easier. Once you call it "strong willed" and a "battle," I think you paint your options into a bit of a corner.

Books for what age range?

On the "seeing things from parent/authority viewpoint", not a lot is immediately coming to mind. (Though you might have success looking in world literature/world folktales rather than than in Western literature, as a lot of non-Western cultures put more emphasis on conforming to community norms and respecting parental authority.) I'd be curious about any suggestions other posters have.

Meantime, I might approach this slantwise, starting with books that promote seeing other viewpoints, and the surprise/charm of taking a different point of view, and for older kids, incorporating messages of responsibility and diplomacy. For instance, picture books that come to mind:
Zen Shorts, Jon Muth
Goha, the Wise Fool, Denys Johnson-Davies
Chloe and the Lion, Mac Barnett and Adam Rex
Rumpelstiltskin's Daughter, Diane Stanley
For middle grades:
The Landry News, Andrew Clements (need to have mercy along with passion for truth)
the "Rabbi Harvey" books, Steve Sheinkin (cleverness/diplomacy win out)
Mrs. Frisby and the Rats of NIMH, Robert O'Brien (because the mom is a hero)
Heart of a Shepard, Rosanne Parry (themes of responsibility, religion/religious calling, and being a soldier's child)
Middle school:
Gilgamesh the Hero, Geraldine McCaughrean (some great stuff along with some more mature content)
The Watsons Go to Birmingham - 1963, Christopher Paul Curtis (civil rights, authoritative parents)
To Kill a Mockingbird, Harper Lee (because the dad is a hero)
The Sword in the Stone, T.H. White (heroism, responsibility, doing what is right)
Watership Down, Richard Adams (what makes a good society)

Anne of Green Gables.

I have a very strong willed DS8. This quality is nothing that I want to squelch. As others have pointed out, being strong willed offers protection through peer pressure and I just think being strong willed is a great quality as an adult. We love independence in our house and encourage it as much as possible, even if the child is contrary and extremely strong willed.

As often as possible, we offer natural consequences in our house because, like your son, I also don't see the benefits of doing what your parents ask just because they asked. To use a couple of your examples, if DS doesn't want to go to sleep, fine. Stay up. But that alarm is going off at 7 and the thing that he wanted to do at 8 is going to be much more pleasurable with a full night's sleep. (And by they way, just saying, "Fine. You don't have to go to sleep.", pretty much ends the battle. DS usually falls asleep 10 mins after he says, "I'm staying up for a couple of hours.")

DS doesn't have to ever put his books away. But if they are left out or on the floor, they will be donated to the nearest used bookstore. If we are about to have dinner, only non readers are allowed at our table. (And only non whiners are allowed at our table too. He is free to whine all he wants in his bedroom. Or he can purchase his own table and whine while sitting at it.)

DS doesn't ever have to get dressed. But he is going to probably feel really embarrassed when his friend's mom pulls up in our driveway and everyone sees him in his underwear.

I doubt a child like yours or mine is going to find anything valuable in a book such as the one you seek. Sorry, but I think it's a good thing!

I think I would sit down (with him) and list his day from beginning to end as a list of tasks he has to do and time when he has a bit of free time choice (I am all about the visual aids).

Then for everything I would make notes about that task....is it optional or mandatory? Does it interfere with other people in the family? Does it have to be done that way.

My young kids had to eat breakfast and brush teeth in pjs. It was the rule and the reason behind it was they only had x number of school clothes and the breakfast and toothpaste always ended up all over them.

So I came up with that order...once they could manage to eat 99% of the time spill free and brush teeth without major toothpaste mess, they dictated they order.

I would then go through the list and ask...what would make brushing teeth less of a problem for you? My older son does better with a spin tooth brush and toothpaste he picks out...all about a bit of control with strong willed kids...not that they can get out of doing it but that they have input and their opinion is listened to.

We can't budge here (you can't have an hour in the bathroom)...but here is what we can do.

Let's try these changes for a week and comeback together...you take notes on your copy of the schedule/plan and I'll make notes and then (when he want to whine you can tell him to "make a note of that" for the meeting.

Controlled choices and control....not running the show, but feeling autonomy and listened to.

Mrs. Piggle-Wiggle series might be good.

I had the exact same thought. She was the original Love and Logic.

We have a couple of "codes" we use after discussing them with DD. One of them is "wall". I'm not even completely sure of the logic behind it anymore, but I think it was that she becomes so engrossed in the battle she forgets why she's arguing and crashes into the wall... I think. Or maybe it's because I've been known to make her stand with her nose on the wall when she engages in a battle of wills while I'm tutoring someone else. Anyhow. She usually stops.

The other is "stop spending my dimes." When she was very young I gave her 10 dimes and every time she argued I took a time. I explained that I only had so many dimes to spend a day myself, and when I ran out, I didn't have any energy left to "spend" doing fun stuff with her. Somehow that seemed concrete.

At 9, she does better with the controlled choices others have described above. When she used a "bad" word (picked up from my mother, long story), she began full scale battle against a 10 minute time out. So I said, "what would be appropriate". She decided to come up with 25 written alternatives to the word she'd used. She looked them up, wrote them neatly and said, "that was interesting."

I did read (for me) 10 Days to Less Defiant Child, which was about 60% relevant and mostly about how to phrase things so as to not escalate a situation.

good luck.

The problem with literature featuring disobedient children is they're usually the protagonists.

Which makes them very interesting to our son.

A recent study on how to encourage honesty in children found that showing negative consequences for lying did not work, but showing positive consequences for being truthful did. Just throwing that out there. Otherwise, no advice. I have one of these, and the other likes to copy her just to drive me closer to the brink. I assume.

I may be tired. Ahem. I recently instituted a "Do one request without arguing per day" rule, if that gives you an idea.

I wonder if the new paper below, which I have not read, is relevant to the subject of strong-willed children.

The Economic Value of Breaking Bad Misbehavior, Schooling and the Labor Market
Nicholas W. Papageorge
Johns Hopkins University Department of Economics

Victor Ronda
Johns Hopkins University Department of Economics

Yu Zheng
City University of Hong Kong (CityUHK) - Department of Economics & Finance

September 30, 2014

Abstract:
Prevailing research argues that childhood misbehavior in the classroom is bad for schooling and, presumably, bad overall. In contrast, we argue that childhood misbehavior reflects underlying traits that are potentially valuable in the labor market. We follow work from psychology and treat measured classroom misbehavior as reflecting two underlying non-cognitive traits. Next, we estimate a model of life-cycle decisions, allowing the impact of each of the two traits to vary by economic outcome. We show the first evidence that one of the traits capturing childhood misbehavior, discussed in psychological literature as the externalizing trait (and linked, for example, to aggression), does indeed reduce educational attainment, but also increases earnings. This finding highlights a broader point: non-cognition is not well summarized as a single underlying trait that is either good or bad per se. Using the estimated model, we assess competing pedagogical policies. For males, we find that policies aimed at eliminating the externalizing trait increase schooling attainment, but also reduce earnings. In comparison, policies that decrease the schooling penalty of the externalizing trait increase both schooling and earnings.

Number of Pages in PDF File: 64
Keywords: Labor, Education, Non-Cognitive Skills
JEL Classification: J10, J20, I20

Bostonian, thank you for the link. I'll download the paper later and take a look. Knock wood, the problems seem less in the classroom than at home at the moment, but I suspect the theory holds for the workforce either way.

Thank you all for your thoughts and suggestions (and empathy). We've had a crazy few weeks so sorry for the delay.

DS reads at roughly high school level. He did like the Mrs. Piggle-Wiggle books. I'll look at the others.

Bought a copy of the Setting Limits with Your Strong-Willed Child book aeh had recommended a few months ago. I had a library copy then but think we need to own it. Fortunately, DS isn't all the way to the right on all the scales, but I'm pretty sure we have temperment mismatches with each other (and DS/DH even worse). Now if only I could figure out a "natural consequence" for throwing himself on the stairs and refusing to go to his room for a timeout...