I'm meeting with DS's school next week about next year, both in terms of his special needs and his advanced abilities. I'm the most concerned about math. Right now he has a teacher who is giving him worksheets that the "suggested learning objectives" show from computerized testing, which is above-level. She does sit down with him and teach him the concepts one-on-one so he can do the worksheets, but I don't know how much time is actually spent on this. So he is in first grade, but most of what he has worked on has been 3rd-5th grade material. The current teacher thinks the next teacher should just continue on with this method. My concern is that he probably gets about 5 min. of instruction each day and then he's on his own. They are not doing any "curriculum" it is just random stuff. One day it might be (-5)-(-27) and the next day it might be convert 428 inches to yards. Then a few days later he might bring home graphs or something about probability.
This is WAY better than what the last teacher did (she did nothing), and he is clearly learning, but it is not ideal. She thinks he would benefit either from this method, or subject acceleration (going to a higher grade for math, then coming back), but I don't think the district would allow any more than 1 grade. If he went to third grade math next fall instead of second, he would probably still know 90 percent of the concepts. I'm sure there are things he could brush up on, but the pace would be way too slow.
I don't know if anyone will ask my opinion, but if they do, or if I have the opportunity to present an alternative, what would it be? He should stay in second grade and work independently or one-on-one with the teacher for some concepts, but go to the next higher grade for others? Is there anything that would actually work? I know probably nothing is ideal but if there is a better solution than what we are doing now, or subject accelerating, what would it be? I am not sure if the district would actually allow the teacher to teach the curriculum from an advanced grade. Right now the teacher can just say she's "enriching" or whatever.
They are not doing any "curriculum" it is just random stuff.
Welllllllll-- to be fair, this IS what some math curriculum actually resembles these days.
No comment on the "what would be better" since I don't really have a useful suggestion. Obviously, working at the pace that feels right for him is the ideal, and I'm not sure how you would come up with a pragmatic solution for that.
They are not doing any "curriculum" it is just random stuff.
Welllllllll-- to be fair, this IS what some math curriculum actually resembles these days.
You have a point there.
Maybe what he is doing really is best, and we'll just deal with the fact that the actual instruction doesn't amount to much. I could suggest Khan Academy...it would be better than 5 min. of rushed instruction I guess.
I think you definitely want to structure the topics more. Even if he continues on worksheets they presumably could be sequenced rationally. Have you tried comprehensively tracking the topics over time to make sure your impression is correct or alternatively just asking the teacher how she is choosing them?
Also Khan academy can be just as random topic-wise. Imposing some hard ordering on its units definitely improves the experience not that I personally would want that to be the primary instructional
mechanism.
My concern is that he probably gets about 5 min. of instruction each day and then he's on his own. They are not doing any "curriculum" it is just random stuff.
This has always been a point of cencern for me - because "random" introduction of topics and working on them for a week or two would result in gaps in knowledge even though he is learning a lot at school time. This is one of the reasons that I prefer grade skipping to "differentiation".
When my DS was in an class where he got differentiation, he got no instruction at all - just worksheets. So, I taught him the concepts ahead of time using Singapore Math and Beast academy and also sent in a work packet from home. Will this approach work in your school setting?
Our DS' school gave him the end-of-year tests for 3rd grade (he was in second grade at the time) and then 4th grade math. When he passed the 3rd grade test (80 some percent), but not the 4th grade (50/60 percent), they moved him into the 4th grade class for math only. It worked out quite well. It took some schedule adjustment but both teachers were more than willing to make it work (and so, it did. lol). Would that approach work? It isn't all that uncommon where we are, I know or have heard of other children who are accelerated for one or two subjects.
My concern is that he probably gets about 5 min. of instruction each day and then he's on his own. They are not doing any "curriculum" it is just random stuff.
This has always been a point of cencern for me - because "random" introduction of topics and working on them for a week or two would result in gaps in knowledge even though he is learning a lot at school time. This is one of the reasons that I prefer grade skipping to "differentiation".
When my DS was in an class where he got differentiation, he got no instruction at all - just worksheets. So, I taught him the concepts ahead of time using Singapore Math and Beast academy and also sent in a work packet from home. Will this approach work in your school setting?
Not sure. I think the problem that the current teacher is facing is huge gaps that he came in with in January. So he could do division word problems, but he didn't know how to measure with a paper clip. He must have missed the paper clip lesson last year in kindergarten when he fractured his skull.
She says she is "closing the gaps" but if it turns out he's fairly even now after the closing of the gaps, then I don't see why he couldn't do something like Singapore math, maybe a fourth grade level, with the teacher doing what she can to teach the concepts, maybe a little Khan Academy at school, and whatever I can do at home. I don't want to offend the current teacher though by saying that I don't think what is happening now is completely working (she has been trying so hard). We are actually putting him in a different district school so he and DD can be in the same school next year, so I am going to first meet with the current school, and then we will all meet with the new school so a plan is already in place before he starts.
Our DS' school gave him the end-of-year tests for 3rd grade (he was in second grade at the time) and then 4th grade math. When he passed the 3rd grade test (80 some percent), but not the 4th grade (50/60 percent), they moved him into the 4th grade class for math only. It worked out quite well. It took some schedule adjustment but both teachers were more than willing to make it work (and so, it did. lol). Would that approach work? It isn't all that uncommon where we are, I know or have heard of other children who are accelerated for one or two subjects.
I think if I really wanted subject acceleration, his current teacher would defend that position, but I think DS needs to go two grades up to be sufficiently challenged, and the district would never do two grades at a time. So the question is whether he is better staying where is is and given higher work than he would get being officially accelerated. He would get higher level work but there would be little in terms of instruction. I don't know what's better.
Can you ask if there is a way to use "pretesting" material as a method of achieving some compacting of the next grade's material? I understand that most of the time, the logic behind not "skipping" isn't entirely valid with HG+ kiddos, but those kids are rare for administrators, so they tend to view acceleration requests with a skeptical eye toward "gaps" rather than learning opportunities for the child.
KWIM? Maybe a short-term independent study with some collaboration with the teacher in the higher grade?
Could you plan to do next year with a compacted 2y curriculum?
Can you ask if there is a way to use "pretesting" material as a method of achieving some compacting of the next grade's material?
Susan Assouline, in Developing Math Talent, recommends this method.
the pretest is for THEM so they can see what the class knows and doesn't know.Exactly!!
I'd use that as a jumping off point for why this is a perfect thing for pretty much everyone involved-- no more worries about gaps, since that would show up right away, and then the teacher would know to talk with parents or the other teacher about remediation for that topic, the student gets to spend some time actually learning what they don't know, etc.
Basically, that IS the idea-- it's just for an individual student, not for a whole group of them.
I think this is what I tried to accomplish with the last teacher and it didn't go so well. At the beginning of first grade I asked if she would give him an above-level test. She never seemed to do it and said she's working on it. Finally at conferences like 6 weeks after school started, she said that she gave him a second grade level CBM test and he scored 89 percent. She said she can't send him to second grade for math because of the class schedule. She said she'd give him a second grade workbook. I said "Ok, so maybe you could have him do the 11 percent he didn't know on the CBM assessment and then go onto third grade." She agreed. Turned out she never gave this workbook AT ALL...she didn't even enrich the first grade material. When I emailed her three months later nicely asking her "how's the workbook going--did he move onto third grade yet?" (I knew full well he wasn't doing it) she never emailed me back and ignored my request for a conference. When confronted later she admitted she never gave him anything. Who knows if she even gave him an above-level test. She was a jerk about other things and we got in an argument. She told me I'm a bad mom because I don't inital DS's planner (where he wasn't writing anything half the time!). That was when I gave up and took him out, and he got the decent teacher who actually tested him and his overall math score was very high, like the upper 90's percentile-wise, but with all the gaps. I'm not sure if he's been tested again.
If the new teacher tests him maybe she can give him only the things that he isn't getting and move on, but that's exactly what the current teacher is doing. And it presents as kind of a mish-mash of random stuff. I'm not sure if there's anything left of third grade standards that she hasn't given him yet. So in a way, he raced through the second and third grade curriculum in a few months.
It took me two years of talking to classroom teachers to get pretesting for my #1, but when the third grade teacher finally started doing this, she liked it so much, she started offering it to other students, including some who were more bright average than gifted, but still derived some benefit from it.
Part of our plan for next school year is to get school to incorporate some pretesting which we hope will lead to curriculum compacting or subject acceleration. I really hope it works out, but I can see our school saying some of the same things others have mentioned above - since we have already heard excuse after excuse from them.
I should probably keep an eye on this post to see how things turn out and if anyone mentions some things we could try.
Good luck blackcat!
Can you ask if there is a way to use "pretesting" material as a method of achieving some compacting of the next grade's material?
Susan Assouline, in Developing Math Talent, recommends this method.
Every single time I asked about that, the teacher seemed surprised and told me the pretest is for THEM so they can see what the class knows and doesn't know. I even tried to walk one willing teacher through what it would look like and it ended with: How could I give a student a grade if they don't do the work?
So, good luck on that one.
My kid has made perfect scores on certain subject pretest for the entire year, but there hasn't been any change in the instruction. At our school pre-tests are given, but for my student they seem meaningless.
I'm not even sure why they bother with them. They probably heard it was good to do pre-testing without realizing why it was good. Our school system does a lot of the "right" things, but doesn't implement them well.
They do them for "value-added" assessment-- how the end-of-year scores compare with the beginning scores is supposed to tell them whether the teacher is effective.
I wish someone would take note, though, when the student has mastered most of the material at the start of the year-- you can add more value if you teach them new things.
DS came home from school and told me he was pulled out for computerized testing again. He told me his math score and I looked it up. His math score is higher than DD's third grade fall score, and her score was in the 98th percentile (in terms of national percentile).
I also got an IEP meeting notice. I thought this was just going to be an informal meeting and that we could talk about informal modifications to the curriculum. Now someone from the district is going to show up and say that accelerating him is against district policy, giving him advanced work is against policy, blah blah. In fact, the woman from the district who refused to accelerate him this winter was listed on the notice! I about lost my mind and called his IEP manager and asked her what this is all about with that woman being invited! She said that they needed someone from administration and the principal couldn't do it, and this woman is one step above. She (apparently) had no clue that I had had a conflict with her in the past and said she'd un-invite her and find someone else from the district. Ugh, why can't they just keep the gifted stuff separate from the IEP for his disability so that we can keep the ignorant district people out of this!
I'm sure the solution depends on the kids--not all gifted/advanced kids are alike. For my kids, the elementary school offers a little bit of enrichment around whatever topic that the entire class does, with a bit more depth; the middle school offers acceleration (skipping grades). Neither works. The enrichment is not deep enough and the pace is not fast enough. The skipping of grades, well, the kids learn the stuff in the same shallow way that all kids learn, only earlier. We have known all along that my kids need to move at a much faster pace and the material needs to be much deeper. Our solution has been afterschooling and more recently online courses.
I'm sure the solution depends on the kids--not all gifted/advanced kids are alike. For my kids, the elementary school offers a little bit of enrichment around whatever topic that the entire class does, with a bit more depth; the middle school offers acceleration (skipping grades). Neither works. The enrichment is not deep enough and the pace is not fast enough. The skipping of grades, well, the kids learn the stuff in the same shallow way that all kids learn, only earlier. We have known all along that my kids need to move at a much faster pace and the material needs to be much deeper. Our solution has been afterschooling and more recently online courses.
That is essentially the solution we are utilizing. We started this spring letting him take a online high school class at home. This has worked to an extent. We haven't told his elementary school as I'm sure it would be perceived as pushing versus giving a kid who craves more, more.
Exactly-- I started buying college gen-ed textbooks for my daughter when she was about nine-- I just didn't tell anyone.
One other thing that we found gave us away with the school, though, was when my then-3rd grader was choosing things like, er...
Langston Hughes when asked to "choose a poem" to memorize, that kind of open-ended assignment. We learned to keep an eye on the curriculum four to six grades up after that first year, because she had
inadvertently chosen literature selections which were assigned in later grades.
whoops!
We also realized that in so doing, the school was frowning at us and assuming that WE were the ones doing it on purpose-- for what reason I'm not sure, but anyway. This is why my DD wasn't
allowed to read some novels until they were assigned in High School literature classes, though-- because we had learned that they wouldn't flex around those fixed assignments, so she'd only wind up reading it more than once. That happened anyway with a few things, because the curriculum shifted under us as she went. Walt Whitman was added to tenth grade when she was an 8th grader, for example-- but a full year after she'd read a bunch of his more notable works. {sigh}
And really, as playandlearn noted, neither acceleration
nor enrichment is a real solution beyond some LOG; it has to be both at a minimum. This often pushes school teachers and administrators so far out of their comfort zones that they simply shut down and refuse to see what is right in front of them.
Exactly-- I started buying college gen-ed textbooks for my daughter when she was about nine-- I just didn't tell anyone.
Then I'm also guilty as charged.
Although it may be far from perfect in various ways for some students, plain old acceleration into a higher level class is still a major step in the right direction. It's cheap/free and simple.
We learned to keep an eye on the curriculum four to six grades up after that first year, because she had
inadvertently chosen literature selections which were assigned in later grades.
whoops!
We also realized that in so doing, the school was frowning at us and assuming that WE were the ones doing it on purpose-- for what reason I'm not sure, but anyway. This is why my DD wasn't
allowed to read some novels until they were assigned in High School literature classes, though-- because we had learned that they wouldn't flex around those fixed assignments, so she'd only wind up reading it more than once.
Seriously? I reread books for assignments all the time in junior high and high school, and even earlier than that. I didn't mind it, and no one else seemed to care. I did have my 11th grade English teacher use my having already read something - I think it was Pride and Prejudice, maybe? - to have me do independent study of some other book for him, but I realized years after the fact that that was actually to get me out of the classroom and reading more appropriate literature. (He kept me doing the independent study after we were done with that book, for the rest of the year. I thought at the time I was getting away with something. It was an awesome year - I read George Bernard Shaw, Dickens, and other great literature, at my own pace instead of the glacial pace of the class.)
Points to consider:
Emotional maturity-This leans toward the idea that if you can keep their childhood as normal as possible, the thinking nowadays is to do so. If your child is demanding to advance, then take that as a cue to help accelerate if that works for your family. It is like a sliding scale where you are constantly weighing and monitoring what is going on. In medicine, medical professionals all always saying that they can't predict for sure what will happen next, so don't be afraid to change the educational plan to meet what happens next.
Goals--Some families need for the children to get through college early for whatever reason. Some people don't want their child in college early, they just don't want their child's brain wasted before then.
How much mental stimulation does your child need? Who can provide it? When and how? What is the cost and who carries the cost? Schools do not see what is going on at home and how the child is voracious and the parents never get a free minute.
Personally, I love the idea of acceleration in theory, in that if I can get my hands on knowledge that is new to me and so interesting, I am much happier with life overall. I can choose to study X,Y,Z, in college and post-grad, but it would have been nice to have been intensely studying A through W before then.
Hope it helps. Good Luck.
We learned to keep an eye on the curriculum four to six grades up after that first year, because she had
inadvertently chosen literature selections which were assigned in later grades.
whoops!
We also realized that in so doing, the school was frowning at us and assuming that WE were the ones doing it on purpose-- for what reason I'm not sure, but anyway. This is why my DD wasn't
allowed to read some novels until they were assigned in High School literature classes, though-- because we had learned that they wouldn't flex around those fixed assignments, so she'd only wind up reading it more than once.
Seriously? I reread books for assignments all the time in junior high and high school, and even earlier than that. I didn't mind it, and no one else seemed to care. I did have my 11th grade English teacher use my having already read something - I think it was Pride and Prejudice, maybe? - to have me do independent study of some other book for him, but I realized years after the fact that that was actually to get me out of the classroom and reading more appropriate literature. (He kept me doing the independent study after we were done with that book, for the rest of the year. I thought at the time I was getting away with something. It was an awesome year - I read George Bernard Shaw, Dickens, and other great literature, at my own pace instead of the glacial pace of the class.)
Yes-- the problem is that in the "second" reading, it's slower, and the assessments tend to be quite shallow and CLEARLY intended to be completed in "as you go" fashion. So not only was it done at an agonizing pace, it was rehashing of the Captain Obvious aspects, only done in a discovery-mode with questions intended to get students into "predictive" mode as they read-- obviously not something that you can do very well if you happen to have, say, already seen how Othello ends.
So with a few things, we deliberately told her "no-- wait until you see it in class," because we didn't want to put her through that if we could see it coming. I mean, there's plenty of great literature out there. No problem if I say "Not yet" to
To Kill a Mockingbird and offer something else instead.
My son had this issue in junior high, almost every "literature book" they did in 7th & 8th grade was something he read in 4th-6th. In the lower grades they were books he chose for their monthly book reviews, or the small group literature that was done in 6th. It made the teachers lessons on "predicting" the ending not very useful, and it is a skill my son is still struggling with. And my son found it boring to have to slowly go through the books a second time. Books that this happened to were Animal Farm, and Fahrenheit 451, and one or two others I don't remember right now.
This is why I sometimes suggest holding off on particular books when kids are particularly young. And waiting till they can really appreciate it. I personally do enjoy re-reading my favorite books. And I can see that kids get different things out of books when they are read at different ages, but I also have seen kids with the attitude of read that once I don't need to read it again.
I agree-- DD has now read Romeo and Juliet three times, and each time, she sees it from a new perspective. Her first two readings are singular in that she couldn't really identify with the romantic feelings of either title character, but saw all of their behavior with a rather harsh rationality that didn't tally well with classmates as a 9th grader (well, she was only ten, so...)
She only now (at nearly 15) reads it anything like "expected" but still not really because it's just so darned familiar to her at this point.
She enjoys re-reading, but usually her first pass is the one that most resembles what formal education wants her to get out of a reading selection.
This reminds me of when my son read the Hunger Games at 11/12. He was reading a lot of other dystopian literature at that time and he liked those aspects of the book. But he HATED the romantic part of the story, thought the main characters were just acting stupid and that the main character with the wrong person. Part of this is the fact that he wasn't emotionally ready to identify with the romantic feelings yet. But in this case I somewhat agree with him.
He is doing Romeo & Juliet in class right now, and is a LOT happier with it than the poetry unit they just finished. He has never read the book but has seen a film version, and in the theater before.
I agree-- DD has now read Romeo and Juliet three times, and each time, she sees it from a new perspective. Her first two readings are singular in that she couldn't really identify with the romantic feelings of either title character, but saw all of their behavior with a rather harsh rationality that didn't tally well with classmates as a 9th grader (well, she was only ten, so...)
DD's 2nd grade class read a simplified and abridged version of
Romeo and Juliet, and DD had a similar reaction. Her one-sentence synopsis of the play was something like, "teenagers can be really stupid."
So he could do division word problems, but he didn't know how to measure with a paper clip. He must have missed the paper clip lesson last year in kindergarten when he fractured his skull.
blackcat, that's a shame that your ds missed the "how to measure with a paper clip" lesson last year… because… you know.. when I need to measure something that's always what I look for first - a paper clip (SERIOUS sarcasm inserted here lol!).
To the OP, I'm coming in a bit late here, but fwiw, the first thing I'd do is verify that what the current teacher is doing is actually random. It may be different in your area, but in our district the curriculum goals for math in early elementary really *are* random (at first glance), and my kids were working on seemingly different concepts every other week or so if not more frequently in K-3rd math in particular. If you find out the work they are giving your ds now is truly random, I'd consider sending in a curriculum (or after-schooling the concepts) and sending in work from home that is geared toward those concepts. If the teacher was willing you could make a plan together. OTOH, if they are feeding your ds work and instruction now that is based on your district and state curriculum standards, and they are tracking what they are doing, I'd let them continue. As long as your ds is happy and seems to be retaining the info I wouldn't worry too much about having only 5 minutes per session of instruction. I think if you sat in the classroom during the general math discussion time you'd most likely find that even though the instruction is spread out over much more than 5 minutes (perhaps), your ds would most likely be picking up the concepts in 5 minutes or less.
Best wishes, and let us know how your meeting with the school goes.
polarbear
ps - about reading books ahead of school - my ds and older dd both typically found the school pace of going through books boring beyond belief, whether or not they'd read the books before the class read them. DS in particular usually read the books right away when they were assigned, so he'd be done with the book by the end of the first day they were assigned many times, so I gave up worrying about whether or not to tell him "no, don't read this yet because you might have to read it again in school later on". Which sorta comes around to what we've found with acceleration - acceleration may temporarily stave away boredom, but it doesn't (or hasn't for us) done anything more than a "step up" - the classroom pace is still slow, unless you are able to place your child in with other similar-ability kids and in a classroom without disruptions. That's been the biggest challenge for us in terms of finding an appropriate curriculum.
So he could do division word problems, but he didn't know how to measure with a paper clip. He must have missed the paper clip lesson last year in kindergarten when he fractured his skull.
blackcat, that's a shame that your ds missed the "how to measure with a paper clip" lesson last year… because… you know.. when I need to measure something that's always what I look for first - a paper clip (SERIOUS sarcasm inserted here lol!).
ps - about reading books ahead of school - my ds and older dd both typically found the school pace of going through books boring beyond belief, whether or not they'd read the books before the class read them. DS in particular usually read the books right away when they were assigned, so he'd be done with the book by the end of the first day they were assigned many times, so I gave up worrying about whether or not to tell him "no, don't read this yet because you might have to read it again in school later on". Which sorta comes around to what we've found with acceleration - acceleration may temporarily stave away boredom, but it doesn't (or hasn't for us) done anything more than a "step up" - the classroom pace is still slow, unless you are able to place your child in with other similar-ability kids and in a classroom without disruptions. That's been the biggest challenge for us in terms of finding an appropriate curriculum.
Yep, this is what I'm kind of thinking. DD did a whole grade acceleration and it solved the problem of her being bored and ahead of everyone else for about a year. Now she's back to being bored again. The classroom pace is still really slow and there's still the same repetition. It was better than doing nothing at all, but really the ideal solution would be to have kids work at their pace. I just wish this was more structured.
What she's doing for DS is taking the "suggested learning objectives" from the computerized test and basically going down the list in order. I have this for DD's test from Jan. but not for DS. It's structured into sections: Alegebra, Data Analysis & Probablility, Geometry, Measurement, and Numbers & Operations. So for the Algebra section for instance, it lists the 5 skills she attained since the last time she took the test (based on what? one question which could have been a good guess if it's multiple choice)? Then in another column are the suggested learning objectives. These are supposed to be in order from easiest to hardest. So for DD it lists the standard 6.EE.2.a (or whatever) and then "the learner will perform conversions between variable expressions and word phrases." Then the next one. "The learner will solve real world inequalities." Then "The learner will determine the correct equation for a word problem and solve." Then there's about 6 more for Algebra. Then for Data Analysis it's "The learner will use a tree diagram, picture, model, or list to show the possible outcomes for a given event." Then "The learner will find the probability of mutually exclusive events and inclusive events", and so on. So what DS's teacher appears to be doing is doing one standard from algebra, using worksheets she prints out online. Then a couple days later, she might do a standard from geometry, sending home worksheets until he's not making many mistakes. Then two days later, probability. Eventually she'll get back to algebra and do the next standard(s) on the list. So it is in order from easier to harder. But the problem is that some standards are missing, because the test thinks he mastered them when he didn't. So she might send home "convert 838 inches into yards" when I had never shown him how to divide by numbers higher than 10 and that would require dividing by 36. So for him to do the converting homework, I had to go back and teach that and it caused stressed.
I had to laugh about the paperclip measuring as well. Why even bother when she could have just skipped that and showed him cm, mm, etc. with a regular ruler!
In a nutshell, we have found that acceleration was good for a couple of months to learn something new and for the novelty of some of the material, the teacher and class. But after a few months, DS7 reported that it was "boring" and too slow. He was accelerated 3 years in math. He has asked to not do math in school next year (it is the only academic subject that he does at school - the rest we homeschool). I think that he actually preferred what he was doing at the start of the school year. He was sitting in his 2nd grade class and I sent in higher level work. I taught him the material at home (or he taught himself) and he worked on his workbook by himself at school.
I agree-- DD has now read Romeo and Juliet three times, and each time, she sees it from a new perspective. Her first two readings are singular in that she couldn't really identify with the romantic feelings of either title character, but saw all of their behavior with a rather harsh rationality that didn't tally well with classmates as a 9th grader (well, she was only ten, so...)
DD's 2nd grade class read a simplified and abridged version of
Romeo and Juliet, and DD had a similar reaction. Her one-sentence synopsis of the play was something like, "teenagers can be really stupid."
I liked Shakespeare at twelve but mainly the histories. When I finally saw Romeo and Juliet at 17 my response was "Romeo is a d**k.
In a nutshell, we have found that acceleration was good for a couple of months to learn something new and for the novelty of some of the material, the teacher and class. But after a few months, DS7 reported that it was "boring" and too slow. He was accelerated 3 years in math. He has asked to not do math in school next year (it is the only academic subject that he does at school - the rest we homeschool). I think that he actually preferred what he was doing at the start of the school year. He was sitting in his 2nd grade class and I sent in higher level work. I taught him the material at home (or he taught himself) and he worked on his workbook by himself at school.
Thanks. I'm still not sure what direction to (try) to go in. I know DS tends to like to be with kids doing the same thing...and he can be lazy and asks things like "why do I have to do so much work..." but he doesn't want to do "baby math" either. He is already fluent with multiplication and division and place value, etc. and that's a big part of the third grade curriculum. So I'm not sure what the point would be for him to be there anymore than being in second grade math. Fourth grade math might involve more writing, and he struggles with handwriting since he's 2e. I don't know if he will be accepted into the gifted magnet (like DD) in 4th grade or if he'll even be in this district anymore since I keep trying to get him out. But if he does go to the magnet, they mix all the 4th-6th graders up and put the kids at the correct level for reading and math. So if we can just get through the next two years keeping him in the correct grade...maybe things will improve in fourth grade. Or maybe not depending on what the eligibility criteria is then. He's not evenly gifted, he's much more advanced with non-verbal and math ability than verbal, but is an advanced reader. I think his percentiles for math and reading on the computerized testing were both 99 percentile.
Acceleration (early start, plus 2 grade skips) didn't solve the basic problem of providing appropriate challenges, although -- to use a saying I learned here -- it was the least worst of available options.
Ideally, DS would be in a class surrounded by similarly gifted children. Instead, he's simply 2-3 years younger than others in his grade. This age difference introduces challenges of its own, but in reality, he still has it pretty easy in most of his classes.
We had an eye-opener last week when we attended his sibling's Open House and stopped into the classroom where many of his age peers are winding up their school year.
Holy Cow, YES!! ... we definitely made a better decision in putting him ahead as compared to leaving him in place.
Where he is now is not perfect... where he would have been... is DEFINITELY not perfect, or even remotely appropriate.
I would venture to say that acceleration will not solve the problem, but it will (generally) move you much closer to a solution.
There's another benefit to whole-grade acceleration: it saves the kid a year or more of homework drudgery.
I would say that acceleratING solves the problem (though it causes some problems too). Acceleration, as in whole-grade, may only be a temporary patch. HG+ kids need to go either faster or deeper. A regular classroom (even one for older kids) may not do either. So you can bump them and it will seem good for a while (they missed stuff, they have to hustle to catch up, new things are exciting) but then the same issues can arise -- not fast enough, not deep enough.
I think there's this common misconception among schools and parents (and I used to think this too) that you just have to find the right LEVEL for the child and then everything will be OK. So once you bump them to where there's new stuff, now you're set and then can just march along with everyone else. Plus it can be so hard to even get an acceleration (we never could) that it becomes something like the holy grail of educational fixes.
Truth is that unless they have the opportunity to also go faster or deeper within that class (or both), they may have the same issue again in a year.
Which does not mean not to do it now. Because it will be better for a while. HK made the comment in another thread that no solution worked longer than about 18 months. That's been similar to our experience as well. So just be ready for that possibility.
HK made the comment in another thread that no solution worked longer than about 18 months. That's been similar to our experience as well.
While I agree with this statement, it has been our experience as well. What I dislike about this statement is that I feel like when I try and switch things up, my child loses some "stability" in life. Meaning, friendships fall off or adult teachers/role models are lost in the process. Whereas, most kids get more stability. How do you figure it all out with a kid who academically needs change and challenge about every 6 -9 months, but craves stability and no change in terms of people. I always feel like I'm sacrificing something.
HK made the comment in another thread that no solution worked longer than about 18 months. That's been similar to our experience as well.
While I agree with this statement, it has been our experience as well. What I dislike about this statement is that I feel like when I try and switch things up, my child loses some "stability" in life. Meaning, friendships fall off or adult teachers/role models are lost in the process. Whereas, most kids get more stability. How do you figure it all out with a kid who academically needs change and challenge about every 6 -9 months, but craves stability and no change in terms of people. I always feel like I'm sacrificing something.
This is one of the biggest challenges that results in some kids refusing acceleration, some staff believing that acceleration is damaging, and parents untold angst. Kids who are especially good at forming strong social bonds with friends can struggle mightily with this conflict. Our DYS consultant said "if you make friends easily in one grade, you will make friends easily in the next grade". Well, that's true BUT these are not just interchangeable friends. These are PEOPLE in a RELATIONSHIP.
Some positives of changing things up though:
1. You can work it to avoid a "poor fit" of a teacher.
2. Your child meets a lot of new friends so when acceleration/deceleration talk happens in middle and high school, your child already knows some kids when they move.
3. Your child gets more appropriate work and even if it's not at the right level,there is at least SOME challenge in adjusting to new social challenges.
4. You become a subject of gossip, providing something for bored neighbors, teachers, and school parents to judge, spicing up their lives. (maybe not positive for you, but it does build that inner strength and conviction!)
Really, this very issue and compromise is a significant sacrifice for our kids. Acceleration done early helps with this-- get the instability out of the way early, but it doesn't make it OK that our kids can't get the academics they need in a stable and supportive environment. Some kids get to go to schools for HG but this often means leaving the neighbor kids. Some kids stay in their grades and have different work if they have a willing teacher---but what of next year?
It's one of those situations where you say "it is what it is" and you just do the best you can. Remembering that kids are resilient and this stuff is just part of what shapes their lives. Kids deal with divorce, moving, redistricting, friend's moving, death of loved ones, etc. all potentially destabilizing. Having the right support helps kids build the inner strength to deal with what comes their way.
It is a benefit to your child that you recognize that this sacrifice is real. And it does get better for you as your child grows and begins to recognize his/her own needs and priorities. But, it doesn't help that nothing is designed for our kids. Everywhere you turn in school, there are these hard ceilings and your child must wait until they are no longer ready to get to the academics they crave. Right now, we are once again, holding back to keep a good compromise between social, academics, AND ridiculous rules that restrict high school classes to specific grade levels. A reason in the pro column for skipping early and often that we hadn't thought of when we undid our second skip for the social component.
I dream that at some point, the tide will turn. I can just hear the way it will be sold-- There will be stories of tragedy from holding kids back, stripping even the most eager and motivated kids of their desire to learn and go to school. These kids are the "lost" kids and here's the rescue mission. Rather than grade levels where kids must conform, now we'll have child levels. Everyone is tested every year, not to see if the school or teacher are failing, but to see what the child is ready to learn. And kids that learn over the summer are rewarded, parents that enrich their kids lives are no longer considered system disruptors, but instead are patriotic citizens. Maybe not in my lifetime, but how can I go on advocating unless I believe in the mission?
DD is checked out. The last couple months she has decided she doesn't care anymore. I found a stack of blank homework stuffed into the front hall closet. Her teacher is about to lose her mind, saying "I'm going to hold her accountable and not let this talent go to waste." And she continues to give DD third grade work that DD has no interest in. When I tried to comment that DD would probably be more engaged if given the correct level work, that was ignored and she continued to rant about DD's "poor choices."
One of the nearby districts tests the kids and puts them at the right level. So something like 30 percent of kids are doing math a grade level ahead (and an actual curriculum!), but they stay in their grade. They told me if I enrolled DS it sounds like he's so far ahead it would be challenging, but they'd figure it out. Unfortunately, DS is sitting on a wait list.
My daughter has stopped doing any homework because she hates it. I have found homework with "hate" written on it with plenty of exclamation points. I told her she would have to explain to the teacher when it wasn't done (she tries to be a perfect student, which is an issue in itself, and I knew she would be unhappy with that). However, the teacher apparently doesn't care or just excuses it because her averages are all 99 or 100 percent.
My daughter was skipped one grade in kindergarten, which worked well because she hadn't had a chance to form close friendships. She has changed schools repeatedly but says she prefers her current school, where kids do individual work at their own pace, even though she has better friends at the public school.
Honestly, though, nothing has really worked and I don't know how much the acceleration helped in the long run (it was a huge help at the time, but only a temporary help as others have mentioned).
She is tested to determine placement and allowed to skip work if she does a few exercises to show she can do it. However, she still has to follow a standard spiraling curriculum ("didn't I learn this in second grade?") and to test on each section. She can go more quickly, but with no challenge and with no practice managing homework (not that I want her to have lots of homework). It's not harder work, just more advanced. She recently had to write a story and enjoyed it, writing and illustrating about thirty pages that her teacher bound for her and had her read to the lower grades. When I signed her up for an independent writing program because she loves writing, she was shocked to receive feedback for improvement of her story instead of just hearing that it was wonderful and receiving a perfect score. She just doesn't get the experience of handling difficult work even though she is allowed to work quickly.
So technically she should be in third grade but is placed in seventh grade math and high school English. It sounds great and is much better than any other options we have tried, but it still isn't a solution.
So we just try to work out ways to add to her school work, like the independent writing program, and hope it will be enough.
My experience is that there is no perfect solution, when taking the whole child into account. Academically, multiple accelerations will probably be necessary (whether overt or by instructional modifications only), as the rate of learning is not going to suddenly slow down after a grade skip. Socially, finding a community of approximate age peers who have a connection not centered on academics or the traditional school experience helps (e.g., a particular extracurricular/artistic/athletic interest, a cultural or faith-based community). And beginning to understand that friendships do not have to be all-encompassing. By which I mean that one may have certain friends who belong to specific aspects of one's life, and others who belong to another. And no one person has to (or, indeed, ought to) meet all your relational needs. There is also a great deal of value in developing relationships across a wider age range, both younger and older.
While that sounds great-- and works pretty well in the elementary and even early adolescent years for some kids...
eventually, it seems, the fact that some HG+ kids have equally advanced social needs does mean a dramatic kind of loneliness.
We're at that point now, with our DD14. She now has the metacognitive development that allows her to see quite clearly that from an interpersonal standpoint, she is a much better friend than she's ever HAD herself.
It's depressing, that realization. She lacks friends who can successfully cope with the idea that at 14, she is the top dog academically in almost every setting she's ever found herself in. Other pretty bright kids tie their egos to being "smart" and believe me, she makes them stop to do some self-examination whether she wants to or not, unless she hides some of her ability and minimizes her range and accomplishments substantively.
Which she does.
BUT-- that means that when those "friends" are sharing freely with her... she has to self-edit everything quite carefully for their consumption. It's work. Hard work.
Mostly, it's hard work that doesn't have much of a payoff for her, other than altruistically.
Luckily for us, DD seems to be highly altruistic, so she generally regards such arrangements as "fine" but she is so very, very lonely.
Yes. It can be extremely difficult.
I was very blessed to have equally-and-then-some gifted siblings and cousins, with whom one did not have to hide anything, but I think something related to what she is going through is actually why I ended up in my present field (psych). Lots of early practice...
And no one person has to (or, indeed, ought to) meet all your relational needs.
Very good point...
Some of the problems encountered with acceleration in a B&M school are not problems when vitual/home schooling. A kid can move at their own pace, and skip any unnecessary repetition and practise, while avoiding jumps and gaps. The level and pace of learning has no effect on social situation. The room, computer, table and chair are the same. Same house. Same loving family. Just faster learning.
One problem that remains with a (virtually) pre-boxed curriculum is that it's still designed for average students, so you do need to find ways to add depth and challenge.
Same social problems, though-- lack of agemates who
can relate, and a lack of academic peers who want to.
Ageism is a nasty thing to have to face every step of your development. You wind up with your nose pressed against the glass, and time and time again feeling disappointed when the time-lock expires and you're finally allowed "in" there where you've so wanted to go.
It might be appropriate at some point along the trajectory, but generally far, far sooner than you're "allowed" to access it. And some things reach an expiration date before the HG+ child is permitted to try them/access them at all.
It's the roughest part of asynchronous development, and what I've noticed is that being BEHIND agemates is far more acceptable (Bronies? REALLY??) than being ahead of them.
HK made the comment in another thread that no solution worked longer than about 18 months. That's been similar to our experience as well.
While I agree with this statement, it has been our experience as well. What I dislike about this statement is that I feel like when I try and switch things up, my child loses some "stability" in life. Meaning, friendships fall off or adult teachers/role models are lost in the process. Whereas, most kids get more stability. How do you figure it all out with a kid who academically needs change and challenge about every 6 -9 months, but craves stability and no change in terms of people. I always feel like I'm sacrificing something.
Sorry to get back to this late (I'm on Europe time this week).
Yes, that's the trade off. And while parents can do things to mitigate this issues, it is a real issue. It's that whole least worst thing again. What's better for your child? In fact, it's a terrible catch-22 in some ways. And it used to make me angry that there isn't some kind of middle way. Yet with kids who are statistically so rare, it's hard to imagine what that would look like. DD couldn't stand having anything in her room touched as a toddler. Talk about resistance to change. But changing to get out of a miserable situation is a useful ability to have.
I had a school counselor advise me strongly against changing schools, ever, because each change could cause massive emotional trauma. Fortunately, DH was a military brat and could advise me that this isn't always the case. For us moving schools to support academic acceleration was better (we think, it's so hard to see those alternate universes) but that doesn't mean it was easy or all smooth sailing.
Ageism is a nasty thing to have to face every step of your development.
I'm crying along with you. It's hard when they are ready and can't participate just because of age. It's also hard when they are half ready because of some missing skill (like the ability to understand the higher level stuff, but not handle the massive workload).
DD got invited into a class next year -- by the teacher -- but can't really participate (it's an academic competition type thing and there are hard age limits for that). She's really interested. So do I help her wheedle her way into the class, knowing that she won't get the thrill of competing and will feel left out, but will learn the skills? Or does she wait?
Social isolation isn't as much of an issue for her right now (yay!) but academic isolation is.
Update. The current first grade teacher said that she feels strongly that he should skip second grade math and go to third grade because
1. second grade math would be way too easy
2. DS would probably refuse to do it.
3. It would be too difficult for the teacher to continue teaching him one-on-one (it has not been easy for her)
4. He needs to keep learning and he will start losing skills and ground if he is taught at the wrong level.
The principal said that she would contact someone with the district and I laughed because we had already tried to talk to this woman with the district several months ago. So the last teacher DS had said that no accelerated work would be necessary (therefore the district sided with the teacher and did nothing) and this one is saying that it would be disastrous to not accelerate. I didn't ask about pre-testing or anything like that yet, we'll see what happens next. Should be interesting to see them try to sort this out when there are so many different opinions.
DS's reading score was about the same as math on achievement testing but teacher does not think he should be grade accelerated for reading because his writing isn't the greatest. Not sure what I think about that. For both math and reading he is scoring the way an average student would at the end of fourth grade, so three grade levels ahead.
DS's reading score was about the same as math on achievement testing but teacher does not think he should be grade accelerated for reading because his writing isn't the greatest. Not sure what I think about that.
Assuming she's just talking about the physical function of hand-writing, don't let that be a barrier. When our son was in 4th/5th (the year he skipped), his hand-writing looked like that of an 8yo because, well, he was eight! But the content was clearly appropriate for the new grade and beyond.
The compromise was that he was allowed to type any of his homework assignments and that helped a bunch. He was easily frustrated by his inability to write as fast as his mind was working, and the pencil tip became an incredible bottleneck to the writing process. Once he began typing, he could better focus on his ideas and quit worrying about proper letter formation, etc. His handwriting improved as he got older and was no longer an issue.
He has developmental coordination disorder so the physical act of writing is hard, plus he hates writing and will generally write as little as possible and needs to be reminded to stay on task. He needs constant reminders about letter formation, capitalization, etc. He probably has some mild dysgraphia.
Most of the teachers ability-group the kids for reading so it's not that big of a deal if he can't accelerate, but the class instruction part of it probably won't be that interesting. She also seems to have very high standards, for instance she is teaching the first graders parts of speech like "adverbs" and expecting them to use them in sentences. I don't think DD has talked about adverbs that much that even in third grade. She did mention typing and how she wants to add keyboarding to his IEP.
Can you ask if there is a way to use "pretesting" material as a method of achieving some compacting of the next grade's material?
Susan Assouline, in Developing Math Talent, recommends this method.
Thanks, DeeDee for mentioning that book. I looked it up on Amazon and it appears to be something I need to read as well. She has a second edition titled: Developing Math Talent, 2E.
"2E" stands for second edition; not to be confused with twice exceptional children with math talent
Can you ask if there is a way to use "pretesting" material as a method of achieving some compacting of the next grade's material?
Susan Assouline, in Developing Math Talent, recommends this method.
Every single time I asked about that, the teacher seemed surprised and told me the pretest is for THEM so they can see what the class knows and doesn't know. I even tried to walk one willing teacher through what it would look like and it ended with: How could I give a student a grade if they don't do the work?
So, good luck on that one.
My kid has made perfect scores on certain subject pretest for the entire year, but there hasn't been any change in the instruction. At our school pre-tests are given, but for my student they seem meaningless.
I'm not even sure why they bother with them. They probably heard it was good to do pre-testing without realizing why it was good. Our school system does a lot of the "right" things, but doesn't implement them well.
When we entered our ability-leveled charter for DS' first grade year, we asked that he be tested with an end-of-the-year third grade test in math. He had been doing third grade worksheets in Kindergarten and we also brought those to the meeting. The teacher seemed surprised by the request, but did do it. He completed the test with a high enough score that she placed him in the third grade level for this past year, however it hasn't been compacted. (See my post on when to ask for compaction and if it helps.) DS' gaps have been filled in, but now we have a problem with too much repetition.
We're having a meeting with the potential new teacher next week. I am planning on asking about pre-testing, even if they allow him to grade accelerate for math, because I know he already knows most of the material. For instance why should he have to sit through lectures on how 3 5's equals 15 when he has known how to multiply for a long time? The problem is that they like giving UNIT tests, which are very specific to the curriculum. For instance "draw a math mountain for such and such equation." There must be another test (like CBM) that will look at actual standards mastered but then they will probably claim that's not "rigorous" enough and he needs to understand the specific curriculum.
"2E" stands for second edition; not to be confused with twice exceptional children with math talent
Darn it, I was already on my way to Amazon. Clearly someone needs to write a version for 2E children.
"2E" stands for second edition; not to be confused with twice exceptional children with math talent
Darn it, I was already on my way to Amazon. Clearly someone needs to write a version for 2E children.
Yeeaahhh...
I thought it was rather confusing; hence my clarification. That title is REALLY misleading for someone who supposedly knows gifted and all their possible educational "issues".
We had the meeting with the new school and they said it shouldn't be a problem to grade accelerate him for math, however there would be 31 or 32 kids in the class vs. 22 if we kept him in his grade. The teacher said she can attempt to give him work at the right level. The current teacher thinks that if we accelerate the work will still be too easy and with 32 kids in the class it would be impossible for the teacher to do anything special for him to differentiate further. So now I don't know what to do.
I think I will start a new thread about student/teacher ratio and what is normal, because this seems really absurd to me.
His current teacher was adamant that he not be given any second grade work next year--she told the new teacher that would be a complete waste of time even if she did enrichments. I think they used to work together and the teacher told Dh after the meeting that she is going to talk more about it to the new teacher over the summer. After our experience with the last school and how negative everyone was (it was like they were going out of their way to make sure DS didn't learn anything), I could practically weep with gratitude.
Right now the plan is to NOT accelerate and see how things go for a couple weeks in the fall, then decide.