Gifted Issues Discussion homepage
Posted By: DeHe successful advocacy gone wrong -what to do - 05/14/13 05:15 PM
Hi all,
So need some perspective. DS 7 is in an accelerated gifted program - this works adequately - it moves fast enough, the day is interesting, mostly, and he enjoys going, for the most part. I would not say he learns anything new in the primary areas of reading and math although they are backfilling some areas, and going deep in others. He could do more, and does on his own, but its ok. In areas not his interest its great because they are doing things he has no innate interest but then is happy to learn.

So here is the problem - his focus area - science. If not for the fact that he writes like a 1st grader, he could easily be doing middle school science or more. First I spoke to the science teacher - she is sure she is doing enough for all the gifted kids. But I tried with her first, obviously she didn't get it. So went to principal - who totally got it - but was a bit troubled by the age thing - would not send him to upper grades for science. So met with principal and science teacher together and there were a few creative solutions, some good brainstorming - I was sort of satisfied. Thought everyone was on board. Then nothing! Science teacher does nothing for 5 months. Then finally the first opportunity for differentiation comes around.

DS was asked a question (which he answered correctly) was then sent home with instructions to do an experiment to test it. So we had fun, expanded it, tested multiple ways, wrote it up in his personal lab book, then did some research. It was a nice learning experience for DS. Then goes to school - reports findings - teacher has him present to class - THEN THEY DO THE EXACT SAME EXPERIMENT - and they did it for 3 more days.

So getting DS differentiation IN SCHOOL apparently means assigning the same assignment early so that DS now gets to do this same sad, simple little experiment for over a week!!! And all the differentiation and depth CAME FROM US AT HOME!

So what do I do? Go back to the principle? Let it go for this year but inquire for next? I was pleased initially with the talk of differentiation - but this is the worst outcome. Its made science more repetitive and given DS more homework. If I am doing science with him at home, this is not what we would have done!

Thoughts?

DeHe
I always think of science as being such a broad area. There is always more to do sideways. If they learn about the cell and mention that the mitochondria are the cell power plants, the young scientist asks: "In what way? What is the mechanism? How does my apple become energy in a cell?"

So, the best area for outside enrichment isn't in the direct experimentation or even in the content, it is in the ways of thinking like a scientist of asking the big questions. Help your DS enrich for himself as he sees fit. If they are doing typical "rain forest studies" in schools, he could read a book on it himself. Ask questions like: where are rainforests? etc. They do an experiment to test one factor, he can think of more factors. Better ranges of values to test, etc.

Then maybe you ask the school to get out of his way and let him find resources to support his studies adjacent to the school's curriculum. (and then the teacher doesn't have to be creative, just help with a few questions and double-check work as needed.)

Then again, I don't how ready that sort of self-enrichment is for a 7 year old as I don't think mine is quite ready to do it in science himself.
Posted By: DeHe Re: successful advocacy gone wrong -what to do - 05/14/13 06:10 PM
Hi ZS
We already do a lot of outside science enrichment. He reads a ton of material, we watch videos, go to lectures. This was all about the fact that he will not see anything new in science class for YEARS! I asked for and was given the curriculum so that I could expand on what goes on in class - the problem is that it is so slow - that if I give him interesting stuff on insects, they will be talking about a very small percentage of the knowledge he gains in two days over weeks. So my understanding was that the differentiation was going to be in school - not outside of school - since we are taking care of that.

The teacher seems to subscribe to the perspective that the class is moving so fast already (NOT) and that if he goes in depth now, what would DS do next year or the year after.

I would love it if he could do something different but that is not happening!

DeHe
I was thinking along the lines of him doing his own enrichment completely in class. Like can he keep additional materials at his desk that he can read more widely on the topic the class is covering? They are discussing the role of insects in the ecosystem, and he is reading about the self-organization of insect colonies. If they have to write a small paper on how plants respond to sunlight, maybe he could turn in a bigger paper on the various tropisms and how they work.

Of course, you'd think a teacher could at least take a couple of minutes to write down some deeper topic areas that extend the topic at hand.
Posted By: DeHe Re: successful advocacy gone wrong -what to do - 05/14/13 06:30 PM
ZS
I think that is what I assumed would be happening - I am glad I am not crazy and it seems logical to you to!!

DeHe
DeHe, I don't have a great answer for you, but fwiw, our ds is also very into science, was way ahead of grade level in what he was interested in and able to absorb in science way back in early elementary. We did not have an option for acceleration in science in elementary school, so we just simply didn't even think about it. The way it played out for our ds worked overall. He was bored in class with the pace and depth of the discussions, but he was interested in most of the subjects that were taught in science, so he had things to think about in his own head even if he didn't have class discussion to support the level of his thinking. At home, we ignored what was being taught in science at school and just let ds do his own thing - which, back then, was mostly watching videos about science and reading reading *reading* books. We supplied him with tons of science books at advanced reading levels and he devoured them and would then later toss out questions at us for discussion, or more often, toss out thoughts he'd come up with re science concepts. It probably helped that dh and I are both scientists so we had some great discussions! But we never spent a minute worrying about acceleration at school. Now that he is in middle school and has the opportunity, he's accelerated in science at school and he also takes classes online for fun (for him) and also to give him the option to accelerate further once he's in high school.

Quote
DS was asked a question (which he answered correctly) was then sent home with instructions to do an experiment to test it. So we had fun, expanded it, tested multiple ways, wrote it up in his personal lab book, then did some research. It was a nice learning experience for DS. Then goes to school - reports findings - teacher has him present to class - THEN THEY DO THE EXACT SAME EXPERIMENT - and they did it for 3 more days.

FWIW, my ds has done this in school on occasion. While you of course don't want your ds doing the exact same thing repeatedly, especially for HG/+ kids who absorb and learn the first time around - I don't see science experiments presenting as a repetition trap in the same way that assigning the same math problem too many times presents redundancy. Data obtained from a science experiment rarely comes out exactly the same even when you're doing the same experiment - that's one of the fun and educational things about doing an experiment in a class with multiple groups of students, and that's one of the reasons that in real life - scientists repeat experiments to test a theory. While it's not ideal to be stuck without something new being taught - I wouldn't necessarily think that time repeating a lab is necessarily time wasted for a kid who's thinking like a scientist - he's still in the lab, still able to ponder the what-ifs or alter the experiment in slight ways to see how the results change etc.

One thing you could consider (we considered briefly) is asking the school if your ds could take an online science course through one of the talent searches or another accredited program during science class at school as a way of offering him accelerated and faster-paced curriculum. The other thing I'd consider at this point in the year is just waiting until next year and start fresh with a new teacher.

Best wishes,

polarbear
We didn't get Science acceleration until Middle School. It was only when my DS's math levels accelerated so far that the Science would never catch up. They agreed to allow him to test out of courses using course exit exams. Of course, they didn't think he would pass and had to scramble around to figure out the scheduling once he did. We have a school fairly open to certain advancements in Language Arts and Math. Apparently, my ds is the first child they have every allowed to accelerate in Science.

Many schools argue the math will fall behind the science curriculum therefore no acceleration. smirk

My ds has a library size collection of science books, microscopes, telescopes, robotics, you name it things around the house. We let him go crazy at home. The school was not going to even entertain it.
DeHe, let me think about this. It's been a problem for our DD, too.

Being in a bricks-and-mortar school setting, your DS' options are constrained in some ways that they are not for our DD. I'll think about possible analogous solutions, such as our successes have been.
Posted By: DeHe Re: successful advocacy gone wrong -what to do - 05/14/13 06:56 PM
Hi PB
I doubt they would let him do a CTY or something like that in class, but maybe. I just can't decide if this is worth going back to the principal about.

We had been just ignoring it, until I broached his teachers about it. Its SOOO frustrating that this teacher is not really interested in dealing with the science wiz - its almost like he finds his knowledge and expertise annoying! And this is a gifted teacher in a gifted school. SHe believes he isn't an outlier so will ask these "test" questions - and if he misses just one - oh he didn't know that so he doesn't need anything. So I thought the differentiation plan was a good idea - but then this seemed so deflating. DS thought it was cool to present to the class though - but I hope that doesn't become the default avenue.

DS also has some good options/opportunities starting in 5th grade - but that is a LONG time from now!

DeHe

DeHe, one idea is for him to do independent research outside of class time on the topic of biography/history-- of science/scientists, mind.

This is something that we had DD start doing at about your DS' age. We also encouraged her to do "science-fair" projects, even though she had nowhere to really share/enter them.

Both would allow him to present info to his classmates (assuming that the teacher continues to at least be cooperative re: that, and that your DS enjoys doing it).

After all, part of science is sharing what you've learned with others, so it isn't as off-topic as it seems.

We've (also) failed to find anything that really works for differentiation in science in the early years. In our case, I'm fully confident that it wasn't for lack of the teacher trying, not least because the year we tried hardest, DS was being taught science by the same teacher who was teaching him maths. She totally got DS and his maths differentiation worked beautifully. I think science is just much harder to differentiate; in DS's case, the things that were useful to him were just too mixed up with the things that weren't to allow them to be separated out for differentiation.

ETA not arguing, of course, that there can't be schools and teachers that don't try hard enough; just that it's a harder task than differentiating maths. DS still doesn't often learn new facts in science lessons, but he does learn skills that he will need and won't learn from books, DVDs etc. It's enough, just.
Posted By: DeHe Re: successful advocacy gone wrong -what to do - 05/14/13 07:12 PM
Originally Posted by Jtooit
. Apparently, my ds is the first child they have every allowed to accelerate in Science.

Many schools argue the math will fall behind the science curriculum therefore no acceleration. smirk

My ds has a library size collection of science books, microscopes, telescopes, robotics, you name it things around the house. We let him go crazy at home. The school was not going to even entertain it.

See that is what drives me nuts - they are accelerated in math - the math moves fast - LA moves fast - everything moves fast but science. I think the science is not accelerated at all. In our case the argument was about his age, size, maturity etc, not his skills. And I can't argue, he's a first grader when it comes to sitting and taking notes.

And we have the same house of science items everywhere - books, videos, models, kits - DS was loving the Great Courses - he burned out on like 12 hours of courses, so now the rest of them we picked up on sale will wait until he gets that urge again! And we love science friday on NPR!

DeHe
Our best solution with Science was to supplement it in the summer with Belin-Blank courses and we were blessed to find an outstanding mentor for our eldest DS who was working on his doctorate in Organic Chem.

Sometimes you just have to find the best situation possible for school and supplement their needs finding opportunity wherever possible.

You can talk to schools until you're blue in the face and eventually get somewhere....maybe, however, there is no doubt that you as a parent will work harder to find opportunity than the school will.
I agree that it's a bummer, but you just don't hear of this subject being successfully accelerated till middle school. frown
Posted By: DeHe Re: successful advocacy gone wrong -what to do - 05/14/13 08:07 PM
Originally Posted by ultramarina
I agree that it's a bummer, but you just don't hear of this subject being successfully accelerated till middle school. frown

yes, I thought I had tamed the untamable tiger - weird though that the administration is open to a lot but the teacher is holding it back - I think I was hoping the principal would be able to change the status quo frown

DeHe
I wonder what the ideal science acceleration look like.

Imagine it compressed where he is basically devouring 2-3 years of science a year. There will always be a topic he has already done a deep dive. Likely those are his favorite subjects, what happens when that topic comes up?

Or if it is more like individual tutoring, then there is only so much of a teacher's timeslice he can get.

If it is skipping into higher grade classes, as you say, the core skills (e.g. writing) may not be up to speed with how they do things.

Compacting? Without acceleration means less of the subject he loves.

Maybe the ideal is a grouping with like seven other kids at a similar level of interest and ability. But even in those cases, one kid's gonna be googly on physics, another on biology, etc.

Yes, this is a hard one.

We have not managed to get DS accelerated in science during the elementary years. They just aren't set up for that, or for any kind of real lab work. The braver teachers have used DS as a resource in their teaching, having him explain things to the other kids in greater depth from time to time as a diversion. Right now he's working on a presentation about elementary chemistry principles for the 5th graders.

This year (his grade 5 year) we had a high school chemistry student serve as DS's tutor: they met in the HS science lab under casual supervision by the teachers and had an absolutely fabulous time. It was the highlight of DS's week to know a cool older guy who loves this stuff as much as he does. Since your DS doesn't have the attention/writing skills, maybe this kind of setup would work, since it could be tailored to his level?

At DS's request we are working on a science accel. for middle school. We'll see...

DeeDee


Posted By: DeHe Re: successful advocacy gone wrong -what to do - 05/14/13 08:37 PM
Originally Posted by DeeDee
This year (his grade 5 year) we had a high school chemistry student serve as DS's tutor: they met in the HS science lab under casual supervision by the teachers and had an absolutely fabulous time. It was the highlight of DS's week to know a cool older guy who loves this stuff as much as he does. Since your DS doesn't have the attention/writing skills, maybe this kind of setup would work, since it could be tailored to his level?

At DS's request we are working on a science accel. for middle school. We'll see...

A similar option was suggested for DS which would be awesome - but hasn't happened yet - that I think is mired in scheduling issues!

I think science wouldn't be this tough if they weren't doing so little of it in elem to begin with - which I do not understand at all!

DeHe
The scheduling issues I'm afraid only get worse in HS, especially if your child is trying to fit in Dual credit classes, Driver's Ed, Music, athletics, etc. Not enough time in the day for your child OR you to run them about to it all and attend all the activities they're involved in....but most of the time it's a fun hectic at least.
Except for the times when it's just CRAZY hectic.

Heh.

Problem is, many PG HS kids aren't old enough to get themselves these places...

and there is often an ASSUMPTION that anyone participating is old enough to do so (e.g. driving).
Originally Posted by DeHe
I think science wouldn't be this tough if they weren't doing so little of it in elem to begin with - which I do not understand at all!

True here too. They seem to recycle the same few facts about the solar system, the water cycle, and the parts of plants over and over again. It's been hard on DS10 waiting to get to the good stuff.

We did let DS do ALEKS chemistry, but I bet your DS7 doesn't quite have enough math yet. Hang onto that as an option, though; it kept DS out of trouble for a little while.

DeeDee
Just wait-- in middle school they do the same experiments to go with those same basic facts. Again. Rinse, repeat.

No wonder DD found this mind-numbing.

It wasn't really until high school science past the freshman survey course that she started doing and studying some things that she hadn't seen again and again and again.

It was like the novel material came at her one painful drop at a time, year after year.

Posted By: DeHe Re: successful advocacy gone wrong -what to do - 05/14/13 09:37 PM
Originally Posted by DeeDee
Originally Posted by DeHe
I think science wouldn't be this tough if they weren't doing so little of it in elem to begin with - which I do not understand at all!

True here too. They seem to recycle the same few facts about the solar system, the water cycle, and the parts of plants over and over again. It's been hard on DS10 waiting to get to the good stuff.

We did let DS do ALEKS chemistry, but I bet your DS7 doesn't quite have enough math yet. Hang onto that as an option, though; it kept DS out of trouble for a little while.

DeeDee

I actually was talking to DS about online classes this morning - the MOOC's - he's intrigued by them - I just checked out the ALEKS - the college level science one? I didn't see any others? Maybe we should do some CTY or something. Although I am still miffed that the whole point was to give him more IN SCHOOL ala Zen's idea of depth.

DeHe
Originally Posted by DeHe
I actually was talking to DS about online classes this morning - the MOOC's - he's intrigued by them - I just checked out the ALEKS - the college level science one? I didn't see any others?

This was high school chemistry; they call it "Prep for AP Chemistry". Scroll down to the "specialized" courses...

http://www.aleks.com/about_aleks/co...ized23_papchem#gk12specialized23_papchem

Originally Posted by DeHe
Although I am still miffed that the whole point was to give him more IN SCHOOL ala Zen's idea of depth.

Exactly. We never wanted DS to have more homework, only to have him learning well in school.

And yet one feels it might be regarded as unwelcome to send a little guy into school with a high school physics textbook under his arm and ask that he be excused from their excellent curriculum.

DeeDee
Fair warning-- not all science teachers in high schools are thrilled with kids that already "know" what they are teaching, either. You'd think they'd be thrilled to have a kid that INTERESTED, but it isn't always the case.

(Witness exhibit A, my DD's biology teacher. {sigh} )

I'm not sure that the answer is "you stop that scholarly activity right this instant, young lady-- what are you trying to do?? RUIN YOURSELF for high school chemistry?"

In any case, though, be aware that this is not necessarily a problem that gets better with time.

Of course, DD can hide what she does on the side that much better now that she's 13 and not 7. So there is that.
Posted By: Wren Re: successful advocacy gone wrong -what to do - 05/14/13 10:19 PM
I think science is a hard one to accelerate in school. It requires materials.

DD was fortunate to do a weekly science class at the AMNH for the last 3 years. They are able to do amazing things that no school could compete with. Perhaps you could look within the environment.

There are many science camps and maybe you could find something that fits.

I find it easy to accelerate math and reading at home but science is a different game. When they did earth quakes, they were able to visit the museum display with the seismograph and visually see the frequency of earthquakes in any timeframe and the size. Use the equipment to test the effect of a small earthquake. And this was in grade 2.

My advice is to look around for science advancement.
Originally Posted by HowlerKarma
Fair warning-- not all science teachers in high schools are thrilled with kids that already "know" what they are teaching, either. You'd think they'd be thrilled to have a kid that INTERESTED, but it isn't always the case.

(Witness exhibit A, my DD's biology teacher. {sigh} )

I'm not sure that the answer is "you stop that scholarly activity right this instant, young lady-- what are you trying to do?? RUIN YOURSELF for high school chemistry?"

In any case, though, be aware that this is not necessarily a problem that gets better with time.

Of course, DD can hide what she does on the side that much better now that she's 13 and not 7. So there is that.


That is a terrible attitude for a teacher.

So far my ds has had teachers excited to have him. When we got the skip the Honors Bio teacher said, "I was a little leery of a middle schooler keeping up but what a great fit and good work getting it done!" The head of the dept is looking forward to having him in her class next year. OTH, She is the teacher that said is his age should not be a factor in placement to begin.

Thankfully my DS has done just as well as I expected him to do. Hopefully he has paved the road for others in the future in district.
Originally Posted by HowlerKarma
Just wait-- in middle school they do the same experiments to go with those same basic facts. Again. Rinse, repeat.

No wonder DD found this mind-numbing.

It wasn't really until high school science past the freshman survey course that she started doing and studying some things that she hadn't seen again and again and again.

It was like the novel material came at her one painful drop at a time, year after year.
This is what I was about to say. Junior High science isn't much better.

I have found it's easy to get a principal to agree with you but a lot harder to get them to follow through.
Originally Posted by Wren
I think science is a hard one to accelerate in school. It requires materials.

There are many science camps and maybe you could find something that fits.
I found most science camps were just repeating that same few experiments. My son did have a good experience in a G&T program in 5th grade at our local university.
© Gifted Issues Discussion Forum