We're looking into whether we want to keep our math-accelerated DS9 in public school next year or move him to the private school system his siblings are in. Unfortunately, the teachers at the private school believe that their math curriculum (Saxon) is superior to the public school's math curriculum (Everyday Math) and that their students are therefore about a grade ahead of the public school students. We know this not to be the case, both from our previous experience with our other kids but also because, anticipating their argument, we have had DS working out of the 5th grade Saxon math book in his free time and we are finding the content to be virtually identical.

Is there a counter-argument to their statement that their math program is superior or should we just accept that they feel that way and that their minds won't be changed?

Luckily we're not in a position to have to send him to the private school so we can walk away if they don't agree to let him do math at his appropriate level, and they are in need of more students so they may capitulate. But I'd really like to be able to show them some statistics or something disproving their theory.

So, the consequence is that they would want to hold him back in math? I don't think the argument is this math can beat up that math. Seems the very issue we all face is trying to get the school to teach our kids at their level of learning. So the mano a mano is your son vs. whatever math achievement/placement tool they want to administer independent of his past historical instructional method(s). What if he had been homeschooled and you were interested in paying them money to educate him at his level?

Can't you just ask them to test him? TBH, Everyday Math may well be inferior to Saxon, but that means nothing about *your son's* ability to do fine in Saxon!

Ah, but we *are* willing to pay them money to educate him, but *only* at his level.

They don't do placement tests for any other kid coming into their school with a regular placement. So, if a child has completed 4th grade in a different school, they just put that child in 5th grade at their school. Should work the same way with my child, I would think. He will have completed 5th grade math at one school, so he should be placed into 6th grade math. Why should he have to take a placement test so that they don't make him repeat a grade?

Ahhhh-- but is this about proving your point about the two curricula?

Or about getting what your DS seems to need from them?

Those two outcomes may well call for quite different strategies.

For the latter, might I recommend sleight-of-hand?

"Oh, yes, we've never been especially pleased with Everyday Math. That's why we've opted to enrich his learning at home-- so that he wouldn't have to be in remedial coursework elsewhere."

Or allow them to dictate to you what would constitute "proper remedial action" over the summer? You know, so that he's "on track" with his classmates in the fall.

In other words, I'd go in with statements that clearly ASSUME the placement you believe to be appropriate, and express confusion/cooperative attitude about "working together" toward that goal.

But that's me.

I'm a strong believer in the customer being right.

Hadn't thought of it at the natural progression of one year; was thinking about fighting to get at the next level up. So, they are completely blowing smoke on the math comparison as a way to dodge your requirement.

Nothing like a government site to blow smoke back at...
Here's the What Works Clearinghouse on Saxon math:
http://ies.ed.gov/ncee/WWC/interventionreport.aspx?sid=447
and on Everyday Math:
http://ies.ed.gov/ncee/WWC/interventionreport.aspx?sid=166

I came across this when the discussion came up here acouple of months ago as philosophically I kinda like the Everyday Math concept when done right.

The thing with private schools is that you have a bit of leverage with them that you don't with public schools.

IMO, I'd tell them you're thinking of enrolling your son, and then tell them that the math is a sticking point that's giving you pause. Work out the details before you give them a check (and get it in writing, because people WILL forget or may not interpret a statement the same way you do).

I suppose I want to prove my point about the two curricula and get what DS needs from them. In the end it is most important for DS to be in 6th grade math next year since he will have completed 5th grade math this year at the public school. But, if I could prove my point about the curricula, then I think they might be less skeptical and possibly less antagonistic towards DS (and us) next year.

We'd like DS to transition to this private school because he will eventually enter this private school system. It's where his best friends are, albeit in the older grade. And they have some programs that the public school doesn't offer. But we're not willing to make the move next year if they won't let him do 6th grade math. We're not even prepared to let them give him a placement test because he will have proved his proficiency by having already completed 5th grade math at his current school (the actual class, not enrichment). It would just be nice if we could persuade them that he is prepared to make the move to Saxon.

If you are confident of this, and if you think they are reasonable people who would accept a fact-based, sensible argument, I would consider pointing it out and asking them where they think the two programs differ. At least you can mention it in passing and if there's anyone there who cares about whether what they're saying is true, they will at least take a look. If not, you know there may be other things going on (for them to ignore what they've said) but at least you've brought it to their attention so if they really care they will act on it. Perhaps what they looked at is not what you're looking at, and maybe there is some kind of difference in the order that subjects are presented in the two programs that would lead to the conclusion they've drawn. Good luck!

Yes, this is what we're getting from the teachers. The administration is encouraging and they want DS at their school. But as we all know, if the teachers aren't on board, it just isn't going to go well. We're hoping they'll come around, but we're not going to beg and, at this point, there is no reason to compromise. Perhaps there is no convincing Saxon people that any other curricula could work as well.

Thanks for the thoughts, everyone!

Hmmmm... well, we've definitely encountered this (cult-like) mentality surrounding the Saxon program, as well.

We tried it for a while (a month or two) as homeschoolers, and I have to say that I was... er... underwhelmed. I was also a bit mystified, because I sincerely do NOT understand what induces Saxon's many acolytes to feel this way about this curriculum. Nevertheless, "reverence" is the term.


All that to note that yes, I think that you may be correct-- if you've stumbled upon a group of Saxon, er... true believers.

Which grade does middle school start in this private school system? I'd personally be inclined to wait until your ds is in middle school if you're concerned about math placement - it should be easier at that point, particularly if he's taken a middle school course (such as pre-algebra or algebra etc) at his previous school.

We are having our first experience with Saxon math this year - dd8, 3rd grade - her school switched from a more traditonal math program. She's in a school that pushes advanced academics but doesn't differentiate in elementary school. When Saxon was introduced we were told that it might seem to be a bit repetitive for the first part of the year, but to be patient - it was all good, all great, whatever. We're way more than halfway through the year now, and dd hasn't learned ONE danged thing that's new... and she's been repeating math that was taught as a part of the regular grade level math curriculum in 2nd grade last year, as well as having to pratice math facts repeatedly ad nauseum that she can already regurgitate out at an astronomical rate. I could go on... but clearly I'm not impressed with Saxon... and I would be very hesitant to purposely move a child who's been accelerated back into grade-level Saxon. Maybe it's more challenging in upper elementary, but in lower elementary it appears to be the least challenging math curriculum I've seen....

(stepping off my soap box now!)

And now - that said about Saxon - I had some concerns moving my dd into a private school that was very open about "we don't do differentiation" - in spite of that official policy and aside from the Saxon nightmare, her teachers have been VERY good about letting dd achieve and learn at her own pace, and about giving her challenging work, and at recognizing her achievement. So - no official differentiation, but absolutely, the teachers are working with kids and watching and keeping track of who will be given opportunities to subject-accelerate officially in middle school. So in spite of the school advertising a "no acceleration" policy, it's possible it might be a good fit based on how teacher's meet individual student needs in their classroom.

Best wishes,

polarbear
Good luck,

polarbear

Since the point of the exercise is to get your son into 6th grade math, I'd pose them this question: When 11-12yos enroll in this school for the first time from public school, do you send them back a year in math? Do you send them to a 5th grade class for it?

I would expect the answer to be "no," at which point I would demand equal treatment for my son, because he has been working at 5th grade math the entire year before, just like those kids, and setting him back would be a punishment, and a severe blow to his confidence, just like it would for the older kids. The fact that he's 9 has no bearing on the conversation.

And then I would say my DS is ready to take whatever mid-term fifth grade math test they're willing to give him. When they start the "gaps" nonsense, I would interject that this is a non-problem, as he has supportive and involved parents at home.

I would not bother challenging their beliefs about their curriculum, because the ability for humans to change their beliefs based on data is extraordinarily rare. That conversation can only annoy you, and is unlikely to help you achieve your real goal.

Update:

There has been a suprising turnaround! I was prepared to march into the school arguing my points, but the school is now saying that it should be no problem at all for him to do 6th grade math next year They are claiming that all the problems with my DD a couple of years ago was because we wanted her to skip 6th grade math (she had all the data to support it according to everyone except the school) and that 6th grade math is "the most crucial year of Saxon math of them all" and not to be missed. LOL! So they feel satisfied that "skipping" 5th grade SAXON math will be okay since he's in 5th grade non-Saxon math. Not that they still don't think their math is superior . . . .

Thanks so much for all your input. You all never cease to keep me sane!

That's great news! Hope the change goes smoothly at the new school.