for a problem which is unrelated (as near as you can tell) to WHAT your child is; that is, that your child was victimized/traumatized and needs help recovering--

what do you ask/insist upon as a boundary condition with a therapist?

Do you mention that your child is PG and won't appreciate being treated in rigid chronological terms?

Or do you preemptively offer info that "proves" that your child is otherwise pro-social and well-adjusted?

This is causing me a lot of anxiety. I would hate to send DD to someone who would make her feel even worse than she already does-- and the least that would be true of someone who homes in on her 3y acceleration in looking for "answers" is that she will have no trust in him/her and be skeptical of any assistance.

If it INCREASES her sense of insecurity (triggered by the trauma, not anything general related to being accelerated), that would be really damaging.

I realize that most 13yo can't hang with 16-18yo in a functional way socially, but she isn't most 13yo. She's only recently developed the confidence to note that yes, in spite of her insecurities, those peers DO accept her just fine. Then the emotional injury, which has her questioning pretty much every aspect of self-worth and social worth.

My dd is... well, she's extremely modest and sensitive to others' feelings, and highly prosocial, but often sensitive to being "just a little kid" to some peers (which is probably true for those who go with their first impressions or tend to have steamrolling personalities- it's not that she can't change their minds, she just doesn't see much point). She's a kid who is in many respects an ideal friend for ASD kids, because she is instinctively forgiving and generous about social awareness. She is known as "Ghandi" for a whole host of reasons, but let's just say that the name suits her-- she is immovable when focused on justice, but is virtually incapable of sustaining either anger or a grudge.



I am wondering what others have done with a PG child that has been specifically bullied/stalked/abused by a chronologically older peer, realizing of course that kids are all different-- thus the description of her personality above.

Aw... (teary eyed)

I have no advice... just... give her a hug for me.

Bullying is AWFUL.

(I have no ideas re: the therapist, but I could suggest making sure that she knows - really knows - that 13 is not forever and this too shall pass - she just has to ride it out: ie adulthood is much, much better because you're more free to seek out like-minded people).

When I was looking for someone to help my DD - also traumatized but by teachers in her terrible kindergarten situation - I was very open about her 2E situation. I talked to a number of therapists on the phone and had one particularly awful experience. It sends shivers up my spine to think what would have happened if I had blindly sent DD to that person so I think I know exactly what you are talking about.

I got some referrals from my pediatrician and others who I thought may give me some good leads. We got very lucky and found a perfect match. She "got" DD before she ever met her. She has been invaluable in working with the school, "translating" as she says, what DD needs. She is both a 2E adult and the parent of a 2E child so she really got it. It clicked with me immediately when she said during our first conversation "She reminds me so much of me. I'm dyslexic and I went to Harvard."

Personally I would lay it all out when you screen these people. See what their reaction is to her PG'ness. To her acceleration. To her sensitivity. To her sense of social justice. She is already feeling vulnerable so if they sound judgmental or disapproving or condescending when speaking to you chances are she will not feel comfortable. When I found the right person for DD I knew it instantly.

Good luck!

Thank you, everyone.

I don't think that telling her that "13 isn't forever" is going to be helpful. I was using that already, before it was clear what was actually going on. More explicitly, this is a lot more than routine bullying, so there is very little doubt that some kind of therapeutic intervention is needed. This was escalating emotional/verbal abuse conducted covertly at the hands of a peer who deliberately cultivated a very close (almost 'intimate') relationship with her and used that relationship exploitatively and utterly without remorse. I can't begin to express how malevolent and evil some of this abuse has been, but in just ONE example, this is a peer who took the time to call my child less than 48 hours before she took the PSAT... to passive-aggressively mess with her head using everything he knew about her.

Bullying is one thing-- this is more akin to intimate partner abuse in an emotional sense.

All of that to say that this was the pairing of a person with what gives every indicator of being NPD and my child, who is... well, she's like an ANTI-narcissist. Matter+antimatter. KWIM?

Yes, my child has some anxiety. Most of that is related to her disability, and it is by NO means "maladaptive" in the opinion of her specialist medical providers. "Fixing" her anxiety is not our top priority; in fact, if you keep reading, you'll see why we cannot possibly support an effort to make this a priority right now.

Fixing her confidence in 'reading' social cues, and her basic gifts in this area are the priority-- being able to read people and act in her own self-interests is a matter of life and death for her, and sadly that isn't an exaggeration.

We obviously also want to fix self-image damage, which is equally significant, but the gaslighting and crazy-making behaviors actually resulted in more problems for her personally. Well, because those are problems which are actually things that now place her in physical danger.

She can't be second-guessing what her instincts are telling her, because once she starts that, she doesn't act when she should, she becomes more willing to tolerate risks she shouldn't, and delay emergency treatment because she has become more concerned about seeming reactionary, and is questioning reality. We're already seeing some of these things come to fruition-- it's terrifying.


I'm very very angry, obviously. Y'all can probably understand why, knowing some of what I've posted about my child-- this is a child who had the social awareness/deft skills of a very sensitive and self-possessed adult by the time she was a preschooler. So this feels, to me, as a deliberate DESTRUCTION of my child's most profound gift. Like deliberately damaging the hearing of a musical prodigy.

I keep thinking; "WHY?? Who does something like this?? WHO??"

And yes, we've gone (documented) No contact with this peer after a particularly virulent verbal battering which was (finally) witnessed by a third peer (who was shocked by the severity of the unprovoked rage toward my DD). But he's a pretty scary kid-- the anger and escalation of the abuse has been shocking. Even my DH telling him never to contact DD again didn't stop him from making several additional phone calls-- and now DD nearly jumps out of her skin whenever the land line rings.

MoN may be onto something there.

Well, DD's conversation with the school counselor left her... underwhelmed, and back to feeling the was-it-or-wasn't-it disorientation that she was feeling back in October. In other words, she got the impression (and maybe she is hypersensitive over this) that the counselor was trying to be nonjudgmental but was making her feel foolish for being so upset about it all-- particularly the part where this kid was doing/saying some weirdly icky things re: my DD and another middle school girl. Ohhhhh.. I get it, you were jealous over this other girl... "well, he probably wasn't thinking about her age" when he was staring holes in her clothes. (Well, no, actually-- this "girl" is emotionally/mentally much more a child than my DD is, in most respects, and my DD was SICK over the situation because it was a lot like watching a pedophile stalk a victim...and because this girl was deeply uncomfortable about the attention, too...)

DD's take on the counselor's advice to her was "yeah. some guys are jerks. if you weren't 13, you'd be less sensitive about it," which is EXACTLY what this-- this-- tool was telling her when he was leaving bruises on my DD's arms in the shape of his HANDS, too. His explanation? Apparently, she "shouldn't play like that" then, if she didn't like it. (She did tell him to stop, and as far as I can tell, she was the only one coming home bruised black and blue.) Or "he didn't do that." Or "why are (you) bothering me with your problems," or even "you're lying and trying to make me feel guilty but I won't fall for that," believe it or not. So I really don't think she needs "calming down" over this. She's already underplaying/rewriting things in her own head in a desperate attempt to make sense of the irrational.

Anyway. Kind of miffed at the school counselor, who wants ME out of the picture for this set of consults. Nothing from her yet, and I specifically asked for her insights and recommendations after she spoke with my DD.

Our healthcare practitioner was concerned when I spoke to her about this kid, and his reluctance to leave DD alone. I mean, one DOES have to ask... if this was "DD had a crush on an older boy who wasn't really that into her, he dumped her, he started hitting on a less-attractive friend of hers, and she flipped out with jealousy" then WHY did this guy KEEP COMING AFTER MY KID VERBALLY? And why did he ENCOURAGE my DD toward a relationship with him that she really didn't have much interest in-- only to humiliate her? I have the e-mails, so she wasn't imagining it.

VERY concerned-- particularly about the escalation pattern becoming evident over the past 10 weeks. She is thinking "mandatory reporting" and I'm refusing to name names, basically, because we're still trying to avoid he-said/she-said since this kid is SUCH a liar and has carefully hidden so much of the abuse in chatrooms where he can erase it.

She's a codependent ABUSE victim. She doesn't want to admit that it was as bad as she fears, she's ashamed of having allowed it to go on so long, she's worried/afraid that maybe all that stuff he said was true, and she is still trying to "protect" him and most of all-- to avoid any unpleasantness. She's deeply afraid of him, and of being disbelieved. Any whiff of it and she's going to shut down. Which is exactly what she got from the counselor, who seemed to be trying to 'talk her down' from the a-word. "Oh, sounds pretty mean, huh?"

Well, no-- it's MEAN when someone calls you "ugly."

It's abuse when someone tells you confidentially, "as a friend" that "it's a really good thing that you're so smart, because man... bowowowwww... but it's okay. I'm your friend, and I'm good looking enough for us both-- so just stick with me and I'll defend you because I see past all of that." Abusive even if they ONLY said such a thing to you. But really abusive to say it to you, only to later deny ever having said it at all to both you and everyone else you know.

What I can't figure out is why the school counselor is trying to talk her OUT of referring to this series of interactions as "abusive" since my DD and I are both refusing to name names at this point. It's not like they CAN take action against a person we haven't named, so we really are not obligating them. The counselor was VERY clear that my child should not be "afraid" of this adolescent, and that she believes that any percieved threat from him is mostly blown out of proportion. (This boggles my mind, when one looks at red flags for an abrupt escalation to severe/lethal relational violence in adolescents.)


Please don't quote directly from this post-- I may need to edit/delete details if additional escalation results in a police report.

I'm thinking this, too.

Clearly the school counselor doesn't want to deal with this kind of "icky" situation, and she seems to want to reframe this as some kind of psychological problem that is all in my DD's head. At the very least, she's doing something to leave my DD with that impression, which makes her intentions somewhat irrelevant here.

If she were talking to ME as well, she'd know that. But she doesn't seem to think that this situation needs to involve parents, I guess. ??

Kind of mad about that, actually.

It sounds like you need to seek outside help for your DD but to have very direct and clear communication with the school, possibly in writing (or repeated in writing) about what you believe has happened, about the importance of not minismising or disbelieving what has happened (given written proof you say you have, witnesses, etc) and how much distance v. involvement you think is appropriate for a parent and/or school to have in dealing with this issue?

You are going to need a global social plan, with respect to how to deal with this guy in general depending on what happens.

If things start going south with the counselor/school, you may need a lawyer letter to the school (not an "I'm going to sue you letter, more of a "this situation is serious letter") to make sure that they realize the severity of the situation.

Granted, I'm thinking of a med school stalking situation where this was required, but the school was pretty much ignoring/downplaying it because it was icky. These problems are *always* icky and awkward because they are relational problems, which are always uncomfortable unless you really know what you are doing.

I have not been in your shoes, but I have found cognative behavior therapy to be VERY good for my 2e son. He loves that he gets to do fun puzzles and doesn't even notice there is therapy happening.

He also attends group therapy sessions to help with his social skills. Your daughter is going through something COMPLETELY different, but I am thinking that group therapy sessions could be helpful for her. Especially if she has difficulty with being passive and a bit of a doormat. Group CBT allows kids to practice skills in real world situations with other children, but under the direct supervision of a therapist. My son doesn't always enjoy the sessions, but his behavior has been getting improving in school, so I believe it's working well.

Good luck to you. I did want to ask, did you have a sessions alone with the therapist prior to your child meeting with them? I did this when I was looking for a therapist for my son and am VERY glad I did so. One of the ladies I saw was a "Christian Counselor" and didn't have a clue what Risperdal or Tenex was!? When I asked her how many of her patients has she been able to help enough to reduce or eliminate their medication she looked at me like I was insane. Fat lot of help she would have been! The guy my son sees now was great. I immediately felt at ease with him. I came prepared with all his paperwork and he seemed interested to go through it, and when he saw my son's WISC scores he commented on it and said he'll definitely read all the paperwork before he begins working with my son and my son really seems comfortable with him!

My daughter sees a CBT. She's worked with him on a number bullying situations. They approached the severity of what you describe, but because we identified the ring leaders of the abuse, the school was able to address. Granted, we were in an elementary school situation which made it a more controlled environment.

Document every incident. Keep a written log with times, dates, and NAMES. Use neutral language, and document as "DD reported today that...," but do not downplay the action, if a touch was unwanted, don't say "he hugged her," but "he hugged her against her wishes." Keep this document. Until you are ready to disclose the identity of the perpetrator, send a redacted copy of your entire log after each incident to the school councilor, simply adding each new report above the log of the previous.

I would most definitely discuss with the therapist the grade placement and associated academic giftedness, as this is part of understanding the child and the situation. The differences in emotional and academic maturity, the difference in stage of puberty relative to her peers, and different life experience will all play into how the therapist helps your daughter work her way through these event.

I interviewed 3 cognitive behavioral therapists. I put DD's intellectual abilities and her associated social struggles up front. I chose the therapist that could clearly distinguish social and academic needs, and could see how DD's tests scores demanded her placement. He does not have particular experience with gifted kids, though he reported that most of his clients were of "well above average intelligence." That said, he continually reports to me how he alters his approach to DD in response to her particular unique state of mind. Realize that to be a PhD psychologist, you need to pretty bright yourself. I've found that using the PhD as a starting point gets me a pretty good group of people to interview, as even if it's not part of their practice, they've likely lived it themselves (and have raised kids that are gifted or even 2e.)

Once the initial flames are extinguished with a therapist, you might want to take up the subject of why you and your daughter are unwilling to disclose the perpetrator. The school's hands are really tied without this information, particularly if there are no witnesses coming forward. You will want to explore why you are keeping it private, and how to approach the school to disclose this information. While your daughter needs to learn to deal with these situations, she also requires support in getting herself out of the already established pattern. This is a huge issue even amongst adults, and for a situation that's been persisting for a number of months, it will require 3rd party intervention.

Many hugs for you and your daughter. For all of DD's boredom in school and educational neglect from the school, it's been the bullying that has had me most seriously consider pulling her out of the school. May you get through this with peace and in one piece.

This would seem to be particularly helpful in gaslighting situations.

Thank you for all of the suggestions! (Keep them coming please!)

Jon, I particularly want to thank you for the observation that school counselors are conditioned to re-frame things in "least icky" terminology for themselves. That's EXACTLY the sense that DD got from her conversation.

Now, who knows what the counselor was actually thinking, because DD is someone who ASSUMES that nobody will believe her. No wonder, either-- because this abuse has certainly conditioned her to think that way. Every time she tried to bring up something that was done/said to her in private, the turkey denied it and turned it around on her (or denied that it ever happened at all), and then told her to "shut up." Which she learned to do in short order, it seems.


She has little in the way of proof. She also has little in the way of behavior which was: a) documented (remember, the abuser kept ERASING evidence from chat sites after she'd had a chance to read it, but before I could screen shot things), or b) witnessed by a third party (other than me, in ~30% of the cases).

He was WAY different with her when he wasn't being observed. (Red flag, much?)

He also portrayed all objectionable behavior and interaction as "mutual." As in, yeah, YOU should stop that and I will then, too. Which left my DD completely dizzy, since she WASN'T being obnoxious, demeaning, or abusive. (And really, anyone who knows her very well would know that she isn't capable of this kind of behavior. Truly.)

Why won't we name names? Well, because my DD is a high school junior (note, emphasis on "junior" as in think college application machine) and is involved with several different elected/appointed positions in the community and her school... even the taint of "you're hysterical" or "why are you lying about this honor student" turns into "{DD} is a kid who is willing to destroy another kid's future." Some of her activities are those where a false accusation (or even suspicion of one) would be grounds for removal/expulsion. For my DD, this isn't really about the resume, either; it's about doing community service. She especially loves working with children, and I think it's clear that ANY contact involving the authorities re: "abuse" is a red flag that never goes away in a background check.

This is EATING at both of us-- I mean, sure, we can get her away from him, and probably help her. What we can't seem to do is get something on the record about HIM being a budding serial abuser, or keep him away from other vulnerable kids. My DD and I both are just SICK that he's going to do this to other girls. I realize that must be secondary to my daughter's self-interest, but she and I both struggle with that being "selfish."

We have little in the way of proof. His family is... er... well, his family are "pillar of the community" types, let's just say.

I do have such a "log." It's not what I would give to authorities, because it is not "clean" emotionally-- it's more for the purpose of a therapist assisting us/her. I have 14K words worth of it, and about 50% of it is controlling or abusive. What I was THINKING about at the time. Why I let things go, or what I told DD about them. At least 15% of it is so sadistic that it made me cry to remember it. It was VERY upsetting. That's stuff that I either SAW, noted, or discussed with my DD at the time; the thing is, I didn't see the "big picture" at the time, or it would have been crystal clear that it was pervasive ambient/emotional abuse. One thing which really surprised me in producing that from memory was just how difficult it was to place particular interactions in true chronological order without any externally referential information. So a meeting at {public location} between the two of them, which was frequent, I have to rely on what I was thinking about at the time, what DD was WEARING that day, etc. to know WHEN it happened. This was a first for me-- ordinarily, I'm so good at organizing/ordering things chronologically. I finally realized why it was so difficult-- there was no cause-and-effect flow to things. Each and every contact/interaction was more or less independent from any other, and often (which is what my poor DD kept trying to tell me) had nothing to do with anything SHE had done or said, either. At least not in any rational way.

I have also applied pressure to DD to produce her own "narrative" of what, exactly, happened between the two of them, as clearly as she can recall. She is not keen to do that, but I think that the reason is that she knows, deep down, that there were red flags early on, and that she ignored them because she was willing to ignore almost ANYTHING for someone of similar LOG/cognitive ability who (seemingly?) had so much in common and wanted a close friendship. Heck, WE were willing to let some things slide that we shouldn't have.

" She is not keen to do that, but I think that the reason is that she knows, deep down, that there were red flags early on, and that she ignored them because she was willing to ignore almost ANYTHING for someone of similar LOG/cognitive ability who (seemingly?) had so much in common and wanted a close friendship."

In today's life lesson, we learn that it's important to not ignore red flags because people give off vibes for a reason.

She shouldn't feel bad about ignoring the red flags, but she should feel bad if she ignore red flags in the future having learned this particular lesson.

" What we can't seem to do is get something on the record about HIM being a budding serial abuser, or keep him away from other vulnerable kids. My DD and I both are just SICK that he's going to do this to other girls. I realize that must be secondary to my daughter's self-interest, but she and I both struggle with that being "selfish.""

There's a way to deal with this, but I'm not sure what it is. In any event, high school is generally not a place to start a good record because it's prior to adulthood.

If you really want to solve the problem, just put a mental tracker on him and deal with him over time. This would be the Javert approach.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Javert

Dealing with problems like this is always difficult, but I wouldn't waste too much time on dealing with him at the moment. Plenty of time for that later.

This is hard stuff to deal with; I guess I am more of an isolationist than most. I'd probably lean towards getting my child placed into a different school even, if it meant she never had to deal with this person again. Hope that doesn't sound too extreme.

This crossed my mind as well.

Yes, it's crossed ours, too.

But we do NOT want to send the message to our naturally thoughtful, introspective, gracious and somewhat introverted child that being victimized = slinking away from your abuser, who then "owns the field."

Harsh terminology, yes. But she did NOT do anything wrong or bad. She didn't "participate" in a "negative relationship dynamic." She was ABUSED.

Support so that she can face things, yes. In progress. But NO WAY are we willing for her to simply walk away and forfeit hard-won social standing and social circles to her abuser.

The one group (RPG) that we thought we would simply do that with, surprisingly, the (older adolescent) GM pretty much immediately opted to jettison the offender without a backwards glance. {edited details out}


"ICKY" is only getting warmed up, here.

Do you have a restraining order against the boy? That might help in 3 regards:

1. Reframing the situation in your daughter's eyes as the boy being the problem.
2. Validating the seriousness of the situation with the school.
3. Securing insurance coverage for appropriate counselling.

Just a preliminary thought.

So sorry your daughter is going through this ordeal!! How hard not to unleash the inner mother tiger, isn't it? I don't even know you or your daughter, but your retrlling of the events has me feeling protective, even.

I'd like to reassure you, howlerkarma, that nothing can destroy your daughter's gift. Unfortunate circumstances such as the abuse may cause her to suppress it temporarily, but it will never be gone, and it can always be revived!

Isn't that sometimes like waving a red flag in front of a raging bull?

It's really only a piece of paper...

So sorry to hear you are facing this! Finding a therapist is very daunting. I agree pre-interviewing is critical to be sure you are on the same page before exposing your daughter. I also agree this is a situation where therapy could be very useful.

In addition, you may want to look in to books available from Melodie Beattie. Most libraries will have several. She is THE major Codependency author. I think you'll find doing a daily reading in one of her books such as the classic The Language of Letting Go will do wonders for your daughter in reframing her understanding of herself in relation to others in a healthy way. A journaling exercise such as: "Today I feel..... When I feel this way the thoughts that I feel are... When I feel this way and think these thoughts what I want to do is... My choice today is.... My prayer today is...." can also be helpful.

Recovering from abuse is about understanding healthy boundaries and how to enforce them. It's about finding your voice and not believing the lies you have been told. The three things children learn in an abusive relationship are don't trust, don't feel, don't tell. It sounds like this boy was working all of those quite effectively. It takes a lot of sensitivity to get an abuse victim to trust you (and themselves) enough to begin letting those feelings out in to the open. She needs a secure place to rebuild that trust and be taken seriously.

I would not expect any effective counsel from the school. They always have divided loyalties and are most concerned about their own liabilities, especially when events happened on school grounds.

When YOU hire a counselor you will have someone on your side. I would search for someone (as mentioned earlier) who specializes in abuse recovery or codependency. I would also look for someone who is trained in EDMR as it is a very useful therapy for dealing with traumatic memory. Your daughter sounds like she is having a PTSD type reaction to the phone. Abuse can trigger a Post Traumatic Stress reaction and should be treated accordingly when that happens.

The best news about this awful situation you are going through is that people who successfully face abuse and trauma find beauty, strength, and confidence they never imagined they posessed and grow in amazing ways as they find their way to the other side of this darkness. I pray you and your daughter will see wonderful things come from this awful challenge she should not be facing at her tender age.

I so appreciate everyone's insights and advice; it's appreciated more than I can say.

The PTSD seems to be easing a bit, but DD is still struggling to actually admit to herself some of the weirder things that went on early on in this relationship-- and this worries me since I know from experience (and from reading over my lifetime) that what you don't examine you often repeat.

So until she is willing to examine what went "wrong" here in her perceptions and reactions, she may not be able to learn from this.

We fear that the school counselor's inability to take her seriously enough initially also was a huge setback. I don't think (and neither does my DH) that she WILL open up to a therapist about how awful some of this felt to her. She's deep into rationalize and compartmentalize mode at this point.

While it is certainly good that we're not spending so much mental energy thinking about this kid and his behavior, and that feels (on the surface) like a "win" from an emotional standpoint, I am worried that she is just papering over things, and not truly working THROUGH them adequately.

But she may not trust anyone but me sufficiently to do that work. I don't know what to do about that.

I love how in touch with her emotional state and how connected to the importance of this you are. That is such a huge asset for her. You really get it.

Trust in a therapist relationship is earned. A good therapist builds the relationship and will be adept at hearing threads of what she is avoiding. Many people feel huge relief at finally being heard and seen for the first time by someone else in a way they never have.

This is such a wonderful opportunity to build self-protection skills for relationships at 13! So many serious life mistakes could be avoided by what she learns here. I hope you find what you need and update us when you know more.

Have you looked at cognitive-behavior therapy? They do the best job of any of the branches of therapy at having people really look closely at their thoughts, see how those thoughts are tied to behavior and outcomes, and then change the thoughts that need changing to affect outcomes. Plus it's the the way to go for PTSD.

DeeDee

That's probably the ONLY approach that is likely to be successful with my DD. We're an entire family of people who look at post-modernist thinking and go... "HUH?? What a load... of...delusional... crapola." Mostly internally, of course. Well, DD and I do it internally; DH not always so much. :snicker: {No offense to any post-modernists intended-- it's just not a worldview that makes any sense whatsoever to us}

So anything play-based or 'touchy-feely' is likely to be an abject failure because it won't feel "real" to my DD, and she'll reject it as fantasy-based groping-around-in-the-dark nonsense.

We've been examining our options re: counselors/therapists quite carefully. Most of those that we're adding to our short-list are mindful-CBT or CBT specialists who work a lot with PTSD and trauma.

Err... I think classifying psychotherapy as either CBT or postmodern is as false a dichotomy as I've ever heard! Where did that come from?!

The funny thing is that that's how I grew up.

Then I realized, uh, oh, um, er, I so, so have the wrong worldview because this, uh, empirical-experiential data is completely inconsistent with my assumptions.

Crud. I am so in trouble.

Really, though it has more to do with the subject matter of these books more than anything else:

http://www.amazon.com/My-Stroke-Ins...208&sr=8-1&keywords=My+Stroke+of+Insight

http://www.amazon.com/Master-His-Em...1-1&keywords=The+Master+and+his+Emissary

Anyhow, the *reason* that the "touchy feely" both works and really is "groping around in the darkness" is that the problem is somehow embedded in the non-rational/emotional part of the brain.

Which means that you can't use cognition to use it because the cognition can't *see* it. It's not that it's "dark" it's that the part you use to think is literally blind to it.

I look at it as a mental-emotional blind spot. You can't
it because you *can't* see it. It's a lacuna as far as normal cognition is concerned.

However, I think that's *why* it works. I could be wrong. It's not my area.

In your case, I would hope that CBT works.

Maybe so, maybe not. For a non-violent abuse situation, I'd guess downside risk is minimal.

Good points-- I'm just making an observation about the fact that my entire family is inherently, in a knee-jerk kind of way, highly dismissive of anything that doesn't seem to be rationally- or evidence-based; we just tend to view spiritually- and belief-based rhetoric as strange, bizarre, or alien when applied to us personally. I need to make it clear that I don't think that OTHERS are strange/bizarre/foolish for considering things in that light.

Sorry that it wasn't clear that I sincerely DO NOT mean any offense to people at the other end of the spectrum from us. And I am aware that there is a spectrum, and that my immediate family is pretty much at one end of it.

Not that such things are valueless-- they clearly are of value or they wouldn't be so meaningful to so many people. Obviously that is a therapeutic approach which works for a great many people. It just doesn't work for us because it isn't that we're UNWILLING to go along, so much as that we can't feel as though we're doing anything but pretending to go along... if that makes sense.

My DH and I have both had difficulty with therapists who doggedly wanted to "explore" things in a way that made no sense to us. In my case, I lasted nearly a dozen sessions of what felt like completely inane nonsense that had no relationship to anything in my life past present or future before I just plain quit out of frustration over the wasted time and effort. This was someone that I had seen somewhat helpfully for nearly six months prior to that. DH had a similar difficulty with someone he saw for a completely different problem almost two decades later. It can easily lead to a breakdown the patient-therapist relationship if the therapist keeps, er... well, you know the old saw about how every problem looks like a nail when your favorite tool is a hammer? Yeah, that.


I mean, I get that some therapists' areas of expertise and treatment preferences may not really lend themselves to some patients' needs/styles. But there is also an aspect of this which is about whether or not a patient and therapist have enough perspective in common to communicate with one another effectively. That's all. My aforementioned therapist would have been better off sending me off to someone else with a different treatment philosophy.

We're mostly at one end of that spectrum-- again, my apologies if it wasn't clear that "post-modernist" thinking is pretty much at the OTHER end of the spectrum of how human beings assign meaning and interpret their lives. I'm well aware that people from that other end of the spectrum view us as being spiritually tone-deaf in some important respects, and they may well have a point.

It's a concern when searching for a therapist, because relatively few of them are at this end of things, and that means that building a patient-therapist relationship can be quite challenging.

The nice thing about CBT is that it's good for rational-type people. It can feel like debugging the brain. Even when dealing with nasty, emotional topics, there is an element of trying to figure out where the brain went wrong and how not to do that again.

DeeDee

Except...

on what basis? He "yelled" at her in a way that felt threatening to her? He manhandled her three months ago and tried to frame that rough treatment as "play?"

In any event, if we HAVE to use a formal means of enforcement, we certainly will. But pragmatically, we are probably better off using slow escalation and careful documentation of non-compliance with 'no contact' requests. IMO. My DH has also been nonplussed by my 'alerting' of mandatory reporters without naming names, but there is definitely a method to my madness. With ambient/emotional abuse situations, it's CRITICAL to look: a) rational and b) non-vindictive, particularly when you do finally need to take action. So we're telling people in reporting positions about a concerning pattern, and we're telling them that IF there is any additional escalation, we'll be escalating immediately and we'll expect their help since they'll have been aware of the earlier pattern.

Of note; the phone calls seem to have stopped as of last week sometime.

CBT's an odd thing to go for [as an exemplar of a spectrum end, I mean - it may well be exactly what your DD needs, not trying to suggest otherwise] though. If I may make a partially informed analogy (I have only one personal experience of therapy; my therapist had a PhD in biochemistry, I think, which may have helped!):

CBT: when I hit the TV there, its picture stops swithering. Remember to do that when the picture swithers.

Postmodern? The quantum fields of the oxygen-enriched copper are out of alignment. Put this vase on the TV, then it'll be fine. It isn't? You must have put the magnetic nanomonopole the wrong way round.

Sometimes what you actually want is someone with some idea how TVs work and how to find out what part might need replacing...

I was quite happy living in rational-evidence land. Life was good. I was quite content.

But, could I stay happy and not be curious? Oh, No. I had to go play with the weirdness. I mean it wasn't real or anything.

I had to see what was outside and wander around pounding on the ground with a sledgehammer until something broke to "see what would happen". Yeah. Genius move on my part.

And now the door's locked behind me and I can't get back inside.

Depends on the therapist; the one I've had dealings with knew quite well how TVs work as well as where to hit. Some of it was really lawyerly cognitive debugging (You believe that? Is that belief working well on your behalf? What's the evidence for and against?). Some mindfulness. Perhaps it was a more heterogeneous approach than most; I don't know.

DeeDee

My approach to life is to hit the TV when it swithers.

Of course, now that in weirdness-land....

Therapist: "The quantum fields of the oxygen-enriched copper are out of alignment. Put this vase on the TV, then it'll be fine. It isn't? You must have put the magnetic nanomonopole the wrong way round."

Me: "Meh. I have a sledgehammer. I'm going to hit the vase to see if that helps. Also, I've noticed that some of the vases have chocolate in them and I'm hungry. So, if that doesn't fix the magnetic nanmonopole, I might at least have some chocolate which will make me feel a little better. Also, did I mention that I like to use this sledgehammer?"

I knew you'd cap that :-)

Yes, this. Thank you for understanding what I was trying to say.

DD has a built-in vulnerability that I'm not sure she CAN eliminate without changing who she is-- she wanted a real connection with a true peer. She wanted it so badly that she was willing to ignore red flags, and the abuser was pretty savvy about her weaknesses (having studied her at some length prior to engaging with her). So what is the answer? Insulate herself from authentic human needs? Make herself less kind and accepting of others' faults? Be more judgmental? I'm not sure that she can do any of those things and still be who she is. If she changes who she is in order to abuse-proof herself... then hasn't the abuser won the ultimate prize, in some respects? He's then truly destroyed what was amazing, unique, and admirable about her.

It may really be painful for her to come to terms with that dichotomy. It's proving very hard for her dad, that's for sure.

I'm of the opinion that she has to find a way to establish mindful boundaries for herself, and note when those tripwires are disturbed in a relationship. To do that, I think she's going to need to evaluate what happened here in very painstaking terms-- because the signs were there, all right; but they were very subtle indeed initially.


The school counselor's "helpful" advice was:

group work with a peer group (this AFTER we explained to her that DD feels quite lonely because she does NOT connect/relate as deeply/authentically as she's needing-- to either chronological or academic peers)

artistic expression as therapy

Both suggestions struck my DD as (mostly) evidence of just how little the counselor understands about her or how she thinks or feels about pretty much anything at all. Clearly there seems to be very little therapeutic benefit in that particular relationship. The counselor really doesn't "get" what it might mean to be a PG adolescent, nevermind what it might mean to be my DD in particular. She felt that it was "not relevant" whether or not my DD felt "validated" in her beliefs about what happened to her, and she was repeatedly advising DD to "let go of those negative emotions" which was also ridiculous in that DD is still trying to parse events in some very basic ways (like running the day-to-day through the "was this a healthy interaction" filter) as she remembers things slowly. This counselor also was convinced that this was about a lack of emotional maturity in my DD-- which is so far from the reality of this situation that it is sort of mind-boggling how anyone who knows her could get to that mindset. It's so superficial and frustrating.

Anyway. We have an appointment with someone locally, but it isn't until Feb. We will continue to run down our list of therapists with the right background and interests and hopefully find someone who clicks with DD.

One answer is to learn the tells to when you should start thinking about red flags.

And if you see a red flag, you should *think* about it and not ignore it.

So, if you learn the tells/red flags, then you can still be open...but if you see one..and then two...and then three...well, then you should start watching things carefully.

He really does sound like the sort of person who'd ENJOY dealing with loose Howler monkeys, doesn't he?



The good news here is that I'm questioning my assumptions about psychotherapeutic approaches. (So ColinsMum, your input hasn't been entirely wasted. LOL)

That's what I'm thinking, too.

It's an approach that has (finally) led me to a happier place as an adult. I simply can't bring myself to just be perpetually suspicious of people in a general sense. Can't do it and still be me, YK?

I see that same streak in DD.

But to do this, she's going to have to be brave enough to face her shame in being taken for a ride-- at least well enough to turn things over in her mind and look for the cracks in the facade that she missed the first time.

That will be painful-- because it means going back through your own memories, and reliving the emotional content, even knowing that some of those emotions were elicited by lies or misdirection. Lots of humiliation there for someone who has "perceptive" and "smart" as part of her self-image.

The alternative is not learning from this, though, and that strikes me as infinitely worse as bargains go.

Yeah. At our house we all have "thinking mistakes" we are prone to, and we work hard to acknowledge and be aware of them, including preventive measures. But it is really very hard work.

Totally, totally worth doing IMO. But I feel for you and your DD.

DeeDee

But isn't this what everyone has to learn - regardless of LOG - where do I begin and others end - where is the part of me that cannot be eroded by being nice or sensitive or caring about others. The issue here - as I see it from the other side of my iPad is not the need for a peer - but the need, or neediness which is triggered by the LOG. And this is something that she has all too common with her age mates - 13 -16 year old girls do a lot of stupid stuff to feel a connection, usually with a boy. It's not relevant here but all those sexually active girls are rarely doing it for their own pleasure but for the need to be wanted or liked or in. Back to the LOG, can you get her more peer connections through THINK or other opportunities? Made if she had a fuller circle she would not have been so vulnerable.

It's unfortunately the opposite if the other thread where the two kids are 150 miles apart but connected - but LOG does not eliminate finding the pits in the bowl of cherries. If only it did!

Hugs to you both!

DeHe

Yes, I think that is true, DeHe. It's about the very normal (and even somewhat age-appropriate) need for a "true peer" coupled with a few unique twists that elevate difficulty--

the scarcity of other PG peers in a general sense,

even among PG peers, what she is seeking out in terms of friendship is probably not age-appropriate for most adolescents,
and
she also has a fairly limited/small social circle because of disability challenges (this absolutely precludes summer camps/workshops for the most part).

So while this is a need that we've been TRYING to see met, we've simply never had much luck in this department in spite of our efforts. In other words, widening that circle to eliminate this vulnerability probably elevates risk in the disability-related department to a place which is-- well, inadvisable, let's just say.

There's a reason why fatality stats for people like her peak at "young, teenaged girl." It has everything to do with that need for inclusion-- at ANY price. In other words, if she were allowed to do things that came with unpredictable/variable/volatile risk, she'd probably make bad decisions there, too-- for exactly the same reasons that she did it here. So unfair that our choices seem to be "risk death" or "no chance to meet emotional developmental needs."

This is the other reason why I think we're looking for a real gem of a therapist; this has to be someone that understands that SOME anxiety-- and even fear-- is completely adaptive, and even helpful, as long as DD is listening to her inner voice with the conviction that it won't lie to her. Often, that inner voice is wiser than any other person who COULD advise her.

I also suspect that "group" sessions are likely to alienate her rather than being helpful. The question is whether or not she'd be able to fully relate (or more to the point whether she would be comfortable with others' ability to relate to HER) with a group of same-age or same-grade peers. She simply doesn't care about the things that she sees her peers (either group) posting about on Facebook or talking about with one another. She cares about other things-- she loves politics, current events, social justice, scientific discoveries, geek culture, etc.

It feels like she's looking for a needle in a field of haystacks to find that ONE person who is interested in who she actually is... wants and is developmentally ready for a close/intimate friendship... AND can manage to accept/accommodate the disability without flinching. She's been a best friend to a number of people over the years. But she's never HAD a best friend.

So I know exactly how someone like this could get to her. But there seems to be dishearteningly little to prevent such a thing from happening again and again, because we can't seem to do much to mitigate the vulnerability that's behind it.

Wow, HK, it's just so sad. I really wish there were more options for your DD. maybe this is one way the asynchronous development can help and maybe she can get to the kind of revelatory thinking she needs in a shorter period time. I do hope you find that Gem of a therapist. I don't know where I fall on your spectrum of attitudes about therapy - but having used one to get over a traumatic event - I found it didn't fundamentally change me but gave me the tools to stop the self destructive manner in which I approached thinking about the event, specifically I learned to cut off my endless replay of what went wrong. I learned to not do what was destructive to me. It was very helpful

DeHe

And naturally, any camp that could possibly accommodate for the medical disability doesn't see PG kids too often, so finding the peer group is really tough.

I feel for her.

DeeDee

I feel for her, too-- though we definitely don't let her SEE that very often. Self-pity doesn't really solve anything, unfortunately. The one bit of very good news is that she tends toward introversion naturally, so she doesn't find not having a lot of close friends to be that awful most of the time, and would probably choose this over "too much" social contact.

I do think that her innate disposition (probably not the right term) may allow her to recover her intact self very well-- but recovering that inner core is my top priority because I've literally NEVER known another person like her. She is an amazing treasure. Oh, sure, she's very bright and interesting to talk to-- but that isn't what is so remarkable about her.

She's just got this-- self-contained, self-possessed THING about her. She's very passive but immovable, if that makes sense. It's this core inside her that nothing really "touches" without her explicit, conscious permission. She is just about the only person I've ever known who seemingly CANNOT remain angry at another person on her own behalf. That negative stuff just passes through her without sticking; she expects little from others, and doesn't take it personally when they are all too human. She's not the Dalai Lama or anything (well, I don't think so, anyway)-- she can be mouthy and snotty... but she's pretty much never petty or mean-spirited, and I don't think she has held a grudge over ANYTHING (and believe me, she's seen plenty that would lead me to have some grudges). She can take pretty in-your-face discrimination and just shrug about it-- it doesn't "own" her long term, or eat at her. I can't really describe it in terms that make any sense, but it's unmistakable and almost eerily super-human. It's definitely part of what I consider her "gifts" socially-- it's a kind of awareness of others' inner landscape and capabilities-- she never asks for more than another person can deliver, or resents their shortcomings. She just accepts and mostly forgives. As a parent, I can't begin to describe how humbling it is to sheepishly apologize for losing your temper at your 6yo and have solemn, knowing eyes reassuring you that it's already been forgiven because you were just being human.

Really, letting this other kid get inside that firewall of hers and misjudging him so completely? A complete aberration, and to her-- a full system failure. To her, "how did this happen" is a pretty important question in light of that.

I think we're hoping for just that, DeHe. If she can get someone to help her see that she shouldn't feel ashamed and should accept that she made mistakes, this is what they were, now that we know that, moving along...


We just don't want to see her repeat the mistake, because she draws unstable/wounded/hurting people to her like moths to a flame (I suspect, and so do others who know her, that it's this very inner serenity that is so appealing), so it won't be the last time that she runs into one of this kind.

I'm finally seeing signs that she's recovering inside, so that is one huge relief to me. I was so afraid that this had damaged that core in her-- and that really would have been a horrible thing. Like defacing a natural wonder or something.

Well, because she's human.

And because he is very, very good at it.

Apparently, he has a THING, too, only he apparently likes to use it to emotionally twist people for his own amusement.

Random therapy suggestion... listening to Gotye's "Somebody that I used to know" a lot.

Another less random thought... a point of view that I found that kept me in a balanced place... The mind is more complex than just intelligence... as in there is philosophy, worldview, interests, ethics, morality, emotions, etc. then a principle based approach to dealing with people is that an area of self is only available to people who are compatible in that area. Quick summary is that if someone isn't ethically and morally compatible, you can still engage them intellectually but just not emotionally. Not something I've articulated before, but it might be a perspective she can work form without spoiling her essence.

HK...

I have been meaning to post on here for a few days, and am just finding the time to sit and do it. I'm so sorry that your dd has been dealing with this creep...and that it's hurting her so much. I can generally stomach when my kids get hurt physically (and have many gruesome stories to attest to that)...but watching them deal with emotional pain in the realm of rejection and acceptance - torture! That pain is soul pain.

Anyway, as someone who does therapy with tweens/teens/college age, here's my 2 cents worth of advice in choosing a therapist for your dd: An adolescent therapist must choose wisely what walls they knock upon, prod, peek around, and pursue - and what walls they best leave be lest everything collapse. There is an art to this, and I feel this is the key factor for teens. They have defences up for a reason and sometimes desperately need to keep them up. Find a therapist who can talk to you about how they work with teens and how they deal with resistence. Find out how they include or disclude a parent from participating. My challenge is to walk a thin line between helping a parent feel equipped and plugged into their teen while giving the teen a private area to vent. It's a tricky line.

Sometimes, a parent and I decide a teen is just not ready for therapy - or that therapy might be harmful in some way. If the parent(s) wants, we work together to help a parent become the therapeutic go-between and to fine-tune ways a parent can increase their communication/positive relationship while still setting needed boundaries.

GL.