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Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 21
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Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 21 |
Hi there,
I am new here and sought this out after I received frustrating news from my district.
My DD has been extremely verbally precocious child since she was tiny -- talking at nine months, reading at 4, writing stories at 5.
She became extremely sad and frustrated in Kindergarten (a long story with many familiar trends), so I had her tested and applied to a gifted school. She was admitted to the gifted academy, but we couldn't afford it. I met with the principal of our public and they agreed that she needed some differentiated curriculum. Fine.
Well, now she's a pretty happy first grader. I don't think that she's particularly challenged, but she is happy. An example -- she gets pretested on Mondays for spelling. She gets them all right, so teacher sends home list 'B' for her. I quiz her on them Monday night and she already knows those words. She is pulled out for reading with a gifted teacher, who informed me that she scored the highest in her grade on the reading subtest they use. (I don't know what the measure is.)
So, here's the frustrating part -- they recently told me that she doesn't test into their gifted program because of her performance on the OLSAT. I don't know anything about that test. And, they have yet to give me her actual test scores on it. But her scores on the WPSSIII are below. She took that when she was 5.9? Anyone have any advice or information that would help me?
WECHSLER PRE-PRIMARY AND PRIMARY SCALE OF INTELLIGENCE �III Note: Mean = 100; Average Range 90-110 Scaled Score Mean = 10; Standard Deviation = 3 points; Average Range 8-12
Full Scale 141 > 99
SubScale Verbal 143 >99 Performance 131 98 Processing Speed 125 95
Verbal Subtests Information 16 98 Vocabulary 19 >99 Similarities 16 98
Performance Subtests Block Design 14 91 Picture Concepts 14 91 Matrix Reasoning 17 99
Processing Speed Subtests Symbol Search 14 91 Coding 15 95
WECHSLER INDIVIDUAL ACHIEVEMENT TEST � II (WIAT � II) Note: Mean = 100; Standard Deviation = 15 points; Average Range 90-110
Subtests Math Reasoning 108 70 K.9 Word Reasoning 140 >99 2.6
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Joined: May 2009
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Groups tests like the OLSAT are not IQ tests. That just drives me nuts. Our district does that too. I was told that my dd10's WISC GAI in the 99.9th was probably due to "good guessing" b/c her CogAT score wasn't that high and proved that she wasn't gifted. We retested her on the WISC and, while the scores had moved around some, she was still gifted on that measure (and had 98th-99th percentile achievement scores on the WIAT/individual achievement). That said, the WPPSI probably isn't going to give you as stable or great of info as an IQ test for an older child like the WISC. Given how high her WPPSI scores were, I'd be surprised if she came out not gifted at all on the WISC, though. Would the district take an IQ test in lieu of the OLSAT if you had her retested? eta: you might want to take a look at this page from Hoagies as well: http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/tests_tell_us.htm -- "However, a small study noted a potential problem with the OLSAT and very gifted children. While the correlation between group and individual intelligence tests is quite high for average scores, in this study that correlation almost disappeared for gifted scores. This means that while an average child will score very similarly on a group IQ test and an individual IQ test, a gifted child may not score similarly at all. And the study suggests that this group test may even result in a negative correlation for some gifted children: the more gifted the child, the lower the group ability test score!"
Last edited by Cricket2; 03/24/11 01:32 PM.
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 7,207
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Posts: 7,207 |
So, here's the frustrating part -- they recently told me that she doesn't test into their gifted program because of her performance on the OLSAT. I don't know anything about that test. And, they have yet to give me her actual test scores on it. Hoagie's website says it best: The most common group intelligence tests, OLSAT and CogAT, are used successfully in districts and programs across the country. Notable gifted professionals recommend them for screening potentially gifted children. However, a small study noted a potential problem with the OLSAT and very gifted children. While the correlation between group and individual intelligence tests is quite high for average scores, in this study that correlation almost disappeared for gifted scores. This means that while an average child will score very similarly on a group IQ test and an individual IQ test, a gifted child may not score similarly at all. And the study suggests that this group test may even result in a negative correlation for some gifted children: the more gifted the child, the lower the group ability test score! ["Investigations of the Otis-Lennon School Ability Test to Predict WISC-R Full Scale IQ for Referred Children" by Anna H. Avant and Marcia R. O'Neal, University of Alabama, Nov. 1986, ED286883] Though this study is no longer available from AskERIC, it can be obtained on microfiche from most education university libraries. Any kid can have an off day and get an score on any test, IQ, 'scholastic ability' or otherwise, that doesn't give an accurate picture, but the OLSAT and CogAT are infamous for underestemating highly and beyond gifted kids. Try to get a copy of the school's and any state or district guidelines as far as how a kid can qualify for a gifted program. Usually there is some understanding that no test is perfect, and some kind of provision for a alternate route into the gifted program. Also - you may want to check into the nature of the gifted program before you decide if this is a battle you want to fight - if it's less than 90 minutes once a week, and not causing a social problem for your dd to miss it, it may not be worth it. But yes, I do agree that if the gifted program exists your dd belongs in there. I would also 'check' if the your DD was 'graded' based on her grade or her age, and ask if there were any 'math errors' in grading her score. Love and More Love, Grinity
Coaching available, at SchoolSuccessSolutions.com
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Joined: Mar 2011
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Thanks!
I also question if it is even worth arguing with them about. She is happy overall. But, I know that she is there fort he social part of school and bored silly with the rest. I will definitely try to find out what their gifted program entails. I know that it is a pull-out program and only for a few hours a week. Argh.
Do you know anything about the Subtests. I'm thinking that maybe the OLSAT is like the Math reasoning subtest that she scored low on. The ed psych who tested her told me that that was an indication of the degree that she had been taught. The IQ was ability, the subtest was what she has learned to do with the ability -- something along that line. It was part of her reasoning for why my daughter would benefit from a gifted school setting. It sort of breaks my heart that she's not there.
I'm wondering, also, if I should bother forking out money for the WISC if that is more reliable -- and if the district accepts that as more reliable. The tester told me that my daughter answered all of one of the verbal sections correctly and that she might be higher.
Thanks for any input you have. I'll be looking through the archives here too.
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Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 347
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I would look into their gifted policies, many times you can find those online. If not, contact the gifted coordinator. Many SD accept outside testing and many do not.
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 7,207
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Posts: 7,207 |
I can't imagine that the school would accept WISC and not accept WPSSI, but you never know until you ask. It is certainly worth it to ask what the 'work around' policy is.
If you want her to have more Math, can you afterschool math for 2 months, say, just to get her over the hump?
And if the teacher is going to send home a second set of spelling words, I'll bet the teacher would love to know that a new group of harder words are needed.
I'm not really buying your interpretation of the psychologist saying that gifted school is the only way to go and you are doing her great harm by not providing her with that. It just sounds too much like the 'gloom and doom' we parents are so susceptible too. And if the psych did too say so - I'd argue with her/him as well. There are just too many ways to do parenting right.
((Hugs)) Grinity
Coaching available, at SchoolSuccessSolutions.com
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It's not that I'd expect the school to accept the WISC and not the WPPSI, but I know that some school districts, ours included, won't take scores that are more than a few years old. In some places it is one year, in others three. Having recent testing that supports the earlier testing might be beneficial, but I wouldn't fork out the $ until I was sure they'd use it.
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Joined: Dec 2005
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I wouldn't fork out the $ until I was sure they'd use it. exactly! Our school did a WISC IV because they felt the WISC III was too old, but I was glad they didn't ask me to pay for the 2nd test. Lucky for us the two tests results were amazingly close. Still there is not gifted program in our local public school, so it didn't really matter. They had all the data, did the test their own selves do they were sure they could trust the numbers, and still couldn't see their way to a grade skip or even a subject acceleration. I think part of it was my son's 2Eness which confused them - which I totally understand. Which is what I love about whole grade skips - once they are granted they stay for as long as the parent wants them. What I love about early skips is that there is less disruption of friendships. I figure a full skip with subject accelerations to adjust fit is better than any pull out, but why not ask for the pull out too? Perhaps the principal can make a new rule that all gradeskipped kids automatically get acess to the gifted program and then you'll be 'all done.' That would be logical. Remember that at every school, and every large organization, there is always some level of 'the right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing.' So don't take resistience as a sign that they don't like you - it's more likely a sign of disorganization and CYAism. Love and More love, Grinity
Coaching available, at SchoolSuccessSolutions.com
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Remember that at every school, and every large organization, there is always some level of 'the right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing.' We've found this too. When my dd12 was at the elementary my dd10 is currently attending, we took their steadfast rules as unbendable and were wrong. Dd12 (9 at the time) was a 4th grader. She came in with ITBS scores in the 99th percentile for everything except math (reading total, language total, core total, composite, science, social studies). Math on the ITBS was at the 92nd if I recall correctly. She also had composite IQ scores from the WISC that more than qualified her for a GT id and lots of other achievement scores in the same range. They told me that math placement would have to be delayed until they got MAPS scores so she was placed in the std 4th grade math class. They did, at least, put her in the GT reading class. So, a month or more goes by and they finally take the MAPS tests. Dd comes out with a 99th percentile reading score and a 97th percentile math score. They tell me that, in order to subject accelerate, she has to be in the 98th percentile minimum on both ability (IQ or CogAT) and achievement and that her achievement score just missed the cut. Although her scores are high enough for the in grade accelerated math class, that class is now too full at this point in the year so she's going to have to stay in the regular class. By the end of the year, she spent the whole year tutoring the other kids in math, I pulled her out once/week to work on things like suduko puzzles, and she really made no progress in math. She skipped a grade the next year and was placed in an accelerated 6th grade math class at age 9-10 and did just fine (she's had nothing lower than an A on her report cards throughout all of middle school). Next time around, I knew that they were not giving me a complete picture. Dd10 is being subject accelerated in math as are about 16% of the other kids in her grade. I'm having a really hard time believing that this many kids are in the 98th percentile on ability and achievement despite being told that they have a lot of "really high" math kids. The school population isn't that skewed from a normal curve. Another approx 25% of the kids in her grade are in the accelerated in grade math class. My dd does have the requisite 98th percentile ability and achievement scores sometimes but she's seriously erratic. Inconsistent performance isn't reason to do nothing for her, though, IMO.
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