Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional (I don't even know what to call this)

I don't really know where to best start, but I need some help with figuring out what direction to go in. I've posted a few times, and come here for reading now and then.

I have 9 yr old twin boys who are really struggling. They were tested at age 5 and had scores ranging from extremely low (>25th percentile) and ranging up to 99.9. Both overall scores were in the upper end of the 99th. Verbal scores were on the low end, but 'normal' but short-term memory tasks were at the very very bottom. Achievement scores were slightly lower. Their profiles are extremely similar, so forgive me if I deal with them as a pair here, rather than individually. If I do otherwise, this already long question becomes simply way too long.

There has been a life-long aversion to doing anything difficult, and they clearly lack basic common-sense type thinking. They don't watch the world around them and have pretty much no situational awareness. Consequently their 2 yr old sister knows more about household tasks than they do, because she watches and learns. The boys have to be painstakenly shown and re-shown how to do basic tasks and they'd forget their clothes if they weren't reminded. They've never actually managed to handle even the shortest series of directions. There were a few preschool years where they had absolutely no interest in interacting with other children, but thankfully do wonderfully now with a select group of other kids who share enjoyment of their very imaginative play. For the most part, getting them to exit thier imaginations and join the real world takes very strong prompting from us.

As for schooling, they take a language immersion program. One was reading at above a grade 3 level before kindergarten, and the other started later, but mostly caught up. He has some visual issues, and even at age 9 has trouble with small print and reversing letters. School is in a totally new language and their grade 1 teacher felt they were reading 1 and 3 yrs above grade level in that language. Things motored along in grade 2, with some 'zoning out' issues, which the school was unwilling to address unless they were more diligent in the tasks at hand. Neither one of them was willing to do that. Their has been no question that the boys' *factual* information in their heads is astounding, but not actual thinking and performance. Their Grade 2 performance was slightly above grade level. Now, in Grade 3 their inability and unwillingness to work is becoming a really really big problem, especially in combination with the fact that they spend all their time in their imaginations and have trouble tuning back into the classroom when instructions are given.

Their current teacher (same as first grade) is actually quite well aware of their academic strengths, but talked to me the other day because she has not been able to get them to show anything more than minimal work. There are areas where they are at a minimal pass because she has not been able to get either of them to hand in anything resembling appropriate work. Where it is on-topic, for example a story in language arts, they will each turn in 4 short lines rather than a few pages of a story.

I'm at a loss here of where to focus our efforts. At home we are dealing with the issue of effort through consequences & potentially withholding a benefit they are working towards if they don't shape-up. This is only a small part of the issue, though. I'm at a loss for even where to start with the rest.

The testing done at age 5 was really just the basics. Obviously there is something else going on. They are wait listed at the University Clinical program, but that isn't going to happen any time soon.

I know this is rambling (and probably poorly written as I'm multi-tasking, but please, please, any guidance on what might be going on and ideas for trying to help them out would be *greatly* appreciated. The issue may not be related to giftedness or 2E at all, but I suspect that at least part of it is.

If you are still reading, thanks.

Hi Min,
I think you would be wise to have them fully evaluated. When bright kids are not succeeding, there is almost always a reason beyond lack of motivation. Younger kids, especially crave the attention that comes with success and want to do well.

It's hard to say what is going on, but you mention a few things that might clue you in to general areas to look at. You mention that they have little situational awareness and do not learn simple household chores by watching. I am wondering if they have weak metacognitive skills - "thinking about thinking". This would be related to executive functioning. They could have some undetected ld - the testing should reveal this. You also mention that they have a strong factual cache of knowledge, but poor thinking skills. This could be related to executive functioning and also abstract reasoning skills.

No matter what, my gut says they are not doing poorly on purpose. Punishment or withholding privileges wouldn't be fair if there is some challenge in their learning profile that is a barrier to success. Their difficulties may not be an unwillingness to do work, but an inability.

Again, without knowing more about them, it is hard to say what is going on. But, it seems that you do need a full neuropsychological evaluation. I'm not sure how much help this is - only to reaffirm that getting the testing is the right thing to do.

Thanks, I have a few questions, if you don't mind. Firstly, what exactly do you mean by 'metacognition' skills. I know the definition of this, but am unclear on how it applies in a practical sense. This is 'thinking about thinking' that you mention? I've suggested to the teacher to write down instructions where possible, but will have to make sure to go over with them the need to consult the list and go through it item by item, or they won't. Is this the type of thing you are talking about? Secondly, how does one go about looking into neuropsych evaluations, as opposed to general assessments which cover intelligence or achievement?

The consequences we are implementing here are exclusively for effort. (And I do appreciate you making sure I look at that.) In this area the consequences will make a difference, although perhaps not a prolonged difference. We are all at a loss for how to help get them to 'tune in' at school when they are being given directions and tasks.

Hi Min,

I agree with everything Mich said.

In addition:
Astounding factual knowledge combined with poor application can be (isn't always!) due to Asperger's Syndrome. Kids with AS tend to compile vast quantities of information in their areas of interest and monologue about it; they may or may not be able to actually use the information. The lack of common sense and the zoning out can be part of this, too, or ADHD-inattentive, or several other things. You need an expert (neuropsych or developmental pediatrician) to sort this out in detail.

I would especially second both the need for a full evaluation and the need to be cautious with reward systems while you are still sorting out what the issues are. If you put into place a reward system that the kids can't actually accomplish because of their deficits-- if they can't regularly access the reinforcers-- you create frustration and a sense of failure, which is definitely not in anyone's best interests.

If you want to go the reward route, I'd pick one specific behavior to reward (not just "doing well at school today" but "remembering to pack your own backpack the evening before school" or something very measurable), and make sure it's a task that they can already accomplish some of the time. You probably want to expand their competence slowly, step by step, with very specific tasks; they're more likely to succeed that way.

And you are right: you'll need the school on board with anything happening there. I would specifically advise against your having a home reward system for dealing with school behavior, both because communication between home and school is sometimes imperfect, and because losing home privileges for behavior at school will make them hate school and lose the sense of home as a place where people are on their side.

You can request (in writing) that the school conduct its own evaluation--give them a list of all areas where you suspect problems. The Wrightslaw book From Emotions to Advocacy has nice sample letters. This should be done at the same time as you are pursuing a private evaluation-- because the school has to evaluate before they can formulate a good plan to be of real help to your kids.

HTH,
DeeDee

Good advice. (Making mental note to make sure the expectations are specific, concrete and reasonable.)

The similarites with Aspergers have come up before and ruled out, but the ADD, specifically inattentive, has not been ruled out. Things get very unclear when looking at that.

Hi min -

Metacognition, or thinking about thinking can include the ability to look at what is happening, figure out the main point of it, come up with a process to do it yourself, monitor performance along the way, evaluate the end result, and then make changes to improve.

This can happen in almost any learning situation - interpersonal interactions (how did that conversations go? why? what seems to work better? lets try another approach to see how it works), to school tasks: Hmmmmm I need to complete this writing assignment. What does the assignment want me to do? How will I be scored? What do I already know? How should I get started? What do I need to do to make sure I am on track? Did I do it right? How do I know? What will I do next time?

Kids with LD and attention issues often have trouble in some or most areas of metacognition. While medication can help them attend to the steps and the clues they need to pay attention to, they often need specific instruction on the steps to the active thinking and strategies needed for better results. The good news is that these are skills that can be taught.

I notice that you are from Canada - the special ed laws are a bit different. You will want to check with your department of education to find out about the school district's responsibilities are for evaluating (if any).

Thanks Mitch.

Mich, I do believe that this is generally true, but I happen to have spent my life surrounded by twins and I think life is a bit different for twins, in particular in regards to the craving for attention. Twins have had the experience of paying attention to each other, and being paid attention to by each other from before birth. So the craving that we are so familiar with in singletons isn't a given with twin pairs.

I'm sure Min, that you are a beloved and cherished 'toy' from the perspective of Howard Glasser's 'Transforming the Difficult Child' - however, it's a safe bet that their very favorite toy is each other. This means that it's worth a try, but that it may be slow going. I'd actually use the workbook, Lisa Bravo's 'Transforming the Difficult Child Workbook' to get started if that is appealing.

Then lets look on the bright side - they have always had their own cluster group! They never feel like the 'only one' who gets their jokes. They get a tremendous amount out of having each other's support.

I would take a look at http://www.wholefamily.com/aboutyourkids/dr_rimm.html
and see if it rings any bells...twins can wind up 'overempowered' even if the parents are united and appropriate, by siding with each other!

Testing is a great idea, but what to do until then?

I would just plain enjoy them! If they flunk 3rd grade it won't go on their permanent record. The teacher created this situation, so I would do a lot of smiling and nodding and ask a few potent questions, and then launch into an anecdote about how wonderful they are at home. You may want to check out a few other school options for next year. It's always interesting and sometimes more informative than testing when listening to what 'admissions people' think of one's kid(s.)

One thing I found very helpful when I didn't know what to do - which lasted many years pre-Davidson at my house, I would give 30 minutes of 'special time' each week where DS got to call the shots and make the rules (within the limits of safety and misery, but I did challenge myself) and I just used my determination to get interested in whatever he picked to do. My hope is that the more detailed and specific your knowledge of them is, the better able to apply whatever advice you get when the testing finally arrives.

You might even want to keep a journal of how the special times go. I wouldn't specifically try to 'get them to talk about it' but I do think that this sets the stage for those really good conversations. I never understood how come my son could lecture for an hour about the habits of Emperor Penguins but not give a 3 word answer for 'How was your day?' Now I think that some kids do and some kids don't.

Hope this helps,
Grinity

Hi,

It has been a long time since I have been here. I was reading through what I asked/posted before and came across this one.

The feedback has been right on the mark here.

a) psychologist's report feels that Aspergers may be an issue - to be assessed at a later date
b) they really are each other's best friends and it creates a wonderful cluster group as long as their teacher(s) can use that element
c) the last two years had teachers with vastly different approaches (supported by a change in school principal) who have helped transform the boys into students who are very engaged. It helps that of the 5 other boys in their class are also extremely academically oriented and bright, and that their teacher really understood that they really were actually interested in their odd tangents.
d) concrete expectations help a lot, and we are working on a checking off the list on the whiteboard when they get home (now, if only they can remember to take the key out of the front door and maybe even close the front door).

Thank you so much for your help working this through.

Thanks for the update, and glad to hear the good overview of the last couple of years!