Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy How do you *really* know?

Hello -

I was wondering how parents *really* know if their young (under 3) child is gifted. I am pretty sure that my DD (22 months) *is* gifted, then again I am not sure! Does that make sense?

She does things that are so normal for her, but out of the ordinary for her age (according to the child dev. charts I have seen). The thing is she will do something and then not again for days/weeks/months.

After she takes a "break" from what ever it is she will come back to it and it's like she has been practicing and/or building upon this skill that she never utilized. (At least not that I saw her utilize it). This makes it so that I am constantly scratching my head wonder if she really did *X* or if it was just my imagination...that is until the next time she does it (or someting similar).

She does tend to not do things that set her apart in front of other people and sometimes hides it from my DH and I until she is comfortable with that skill (perfectionism, perhaps).

Here's a quick list of what she does/has done that makes me *sure* and at the same time not sure if she is gifted and if I should even be pursuing this. I didn't start keeping track until she was 16 months old. So, she may have been doing "above the norm" things before then and I just didn't realize it. So, I'm not including dates, but the top of the list will be around 16 months and the list will progress to her current age. I'll try to keep it brief, as this is already quite long.

Expressive vocab over 400 words, showed a true understanding of the words (not just mimicing); uses complete sentences 5 or more words; used proper grammar, pronouns; speaks in paragraphs (however, not all words are always intelligible); too many words to count in receptive language. (I started noting her language skills at 16 months and haven't counted or anything like that since then...)

Understands and speaks about 30 words in Spanish and French (self taught). Knows about 50 words in sign language (I only taught her about 15. She learned the rest from some sing and sign videos and from my sign language book -- on her own)

Knows all shapes, including obscure shapes like crescent and heart. Knows all colors including concept of mixing colors to get the color she wants.

Has exhibited knowledge and use of basic addition & subtraction up to the quantity of 20 (perhaps more, but that's all I've seen). She understands basic fractions, in so much that if she sees the number 1/4 and 1/2 she knows which is larger, the same with if she hears them spoken.

She has at least 50 sight words, has memorized most of her books, has started to read (decode words, sound them out, with and without using picture clues and knows what the words mean).

Memorizes songs and videos after listening to/watching them 2 -3 times, including actions, scenery, voice inflection, etc.

There's more but I'll stop here.

Sorry so long, I just want to give as accurate a picture of DD's abilities.

Thanks for reading! I look forward to the responses.

MM

Have you seen Deborah Ruf's work?

I am not sure how many people really know before their child is 3 - especially if it is their first child.

However, with 20 20 hindsight, I should have known. My son taught himself to read. He learned basic phonics in one day at 25 months. His memory was amazing - remembering books, remembering things that had happened 6 months earlier.... His puzzle working skills were great.

Like your daughter - he would switch gears. He would say a word - and then you wouldn't hear that word again for months. He could sing a song and carry a tune at 15 months. You couldn't understand a word - but he had the notes and rhythm right.

Even so - I didn't suspect that he was that special until he was turned down for admission to preschool at age 4. The school said he was too academically advanced for preschool and not mature enough for 2nd or 3rd grade. (Their estimate of what it would take to keep him challenged.)

Check out Ruf's Levels of gifted online as a quicky starting point. It isn't perfect - but it is accurate enough to give you an idea of how much more you need to learn about giftedness.

Knowledge is power....

Where have I heard that before?

Thank you.

I have seen Ruf's Levels and feel that DD is on the spectrum. I am just hesitant, because so much of it isn't (potentially) applicable, yet. Anyway, I chose where DD was based on her abilities thus far.

I am no expert, so to place her in "X" category makes me wonder if I am even qualified to even *think such a thing about DD.

Well, it looks like I should just press forward and learn, as much as, possible about this topic. I, agree, knowledge is power. And regardless of my DD's level of ability education is too important to just leave to chance. I want to be as informed as possible.

Thanks again,
MM

You are qualified. You spend a great deal of time with her. So much isn't know about these really unusually gifted kids that i wish you had a reason to feel humbled by the wisdom of the experts - sorry.

The question is - what do you need that you aren't getting, at this stage of your parenting?

"The question is - what do you need that you aren't getting, at this stage of your parenting? "

I think it's just a matter of wanting to do what is best for DD. It's the same devotion that I had when I was pregnant, "Am I up to this? Will I be able to do this important job well? Will I look back and know that I did my best" I felt that way the first moment I held her, and I feel that way now.

Also, since, she is my first, I don't really know what "normal" is and the charts never seemed to really apply to DD. I just chalked it up to every child is different.

I want to be able to make as informed decisions, as possible for DD. Especially, regarding things, such as education.

I hope that made sense...

"The question is - what do you need that you aren't getting, at this stage of your parenting? "

I think every parent, new or experienced, needs, or at least deserves, a peer group of other parents who's kids resemble their kid, both for an report-back group when we do well and for support. Parenting is work, and we could sure use the kind of support a Union provides.

Cheers to you for keeping your eyes open! If you can arrange your financial life so that homeschooling is a possibility if needed, then I would reccomend you do so. If not, don't worry, it will be what it is.

I wish I had a sure fire way to suggest that you get local support, have you checked into your state's gifted association? Is there a nearby university that has anything?

Another thing to try is to start interviewing your family trees about their histories. I usually ask if they know anyone who grade skipped. Everyone has "baggage" of some kind about school and their own intelligence, and becoming a parent is a good opportunity to revisit these issues if they haven't been "resolved" yet.

Sometimes, one's pediatrician can be a good source of support, as they see a wide range of development. Sometimes not.

Good luck and keep going. Enjoy every minute you can. It's ok to worry. (((smiles)))
Trinity

Suppose that someone were to tell you that your daughter isn't gifted.

Would you do anything different for the next 3 years?

My guess is no - so don't worry about the label for now. Assume she is the most special smart creative child in the world. Act accordingingly.

You will never regret that.

As time goes on, you will find out more from her - and you can expand your research and understanding. However, I personally believe that the preschool years ought to be fun and play. Just follow your child's lead on their definition of play. Maybe it is coloring pictures of ponies - or maybe it is reading a space encyclopedia together or learning to play chess.

As long as it is fun.... because if she is gifted, the fun too often stops when school starts.

Mary

Mary -

No, I wouldn't act differently. However, it isn't about the "label" it's about understanding and preparing for DD's future. The more I know the better I will be able to advocate for her should the need arise.

MM

I have the same questions about my four year old, Marshall. We are getting ready to have him tested and I am a nervous wreck. I think it's because I didn't want to "test" him, but we are having sooo many issues with his preschool and at home. He is so strong willed that I can't get him to do ANYTHING that he doesn't want to do. We think he is gifted because he was explaining to us the concept of war in the car, or telling his doctor about pistons in a train, picking out chapter books at the library, adding and subtracting, etc. However, he can't read, or maybe he is hiding it. He has always been late in the "milestones" because he won't do anything until he can do it 100%, which makes his preschool teachers think that he is slow. They are frustrated because he doesn't listen, has issues at "circle time", is very intense with the other kids, wants to direct, has to tell stories or talk constantly. Does this sound familiar?
If we weren't having behavioral issues, I'm not sure we would agree to the testing. But, we live in Fort Wayne, IN and I am not sure what oportunities are out there as far as schooling is concerned. We have thought about home schooling, but he is way too social for that. We may go monisory (spelling ?) which has more freedom to go at your own pace. This is a whole new world for us, one we weren't expecting. Marshall is also very little for his age, at four he is the size of a normal two year old, which doesn't help matters.
Any advise or suggestions? I just wanted to let you know that I can completely empathize. My biggest question...now what?

Hi Mary Beth -

From what I am reading, it doesn't seem to me that your son has any behavioral issues. The only thing I see is stubborness, but that might just be because of his age. Anyway, I am *no* expert, so there is probably more than meets the eye.

I am not sure what you mean by "intense". Is this something you have witnessed or the way a teacher described it to you? I wonder because if a teacher is not used to working with a child that is precocious then she might very well find him intense and/or disruptive (especially if he is bored and has found a way to be engaged, e.g. "directing" during circle time).

Yes, he sounds a bit like my daughter. She loves tell stories and talk. And she likes to get others interested in what she wants to do (which, currently, has been role playing or puppet shows). Unfortunately, most kids her age don't really understand what it is she is doing. They are still mostly in parallel play. And older kids just think that she is a cute baby, so they either ignore her or act like she is puppy. Sometimes, she get's lucky and she jsut *clicks* with another child!

The perfectionism issues can be tough, especially, since he hides his abilities until he is 100% comfortable with them. My daughter does this to an extent and it, often, makes me wonder if I imagined X. A lot of kids who are gifted in math, don't always read right away. In fact most kids don't really start reading until about 1st grade. So, it's okay if he isn't reading.

What "milestones" is the preschool looking for? Have you considered having your son go to a Play-Based preschool (versus an academic-based preschool)? It sounds like your so is in the latter type of preschool and if that isn't working out for him, a play-based school might be perfect. It'll give him a chance to learn by playing and hone his social skills. The pressure to perform will (hopefully) be lessened and he might be more forthcoming with his skills because it is *fun* and not because he *has* to be.

Have you checked out the Ruf Estimated Levels of Giftedness? Here's the link: http://www.educationaloptions.com/levels_giftedness.htm
It will help give you an idea of where your son is a la giftedness. He may not fit everything in a particular category and that's okay.

I have learned a few things on my journey to learn more about giftedness. The first is all tests are not one size fits all. I recommend that you go to the Hoagies' Gifted Education Page (http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/) and search on testing. This is one of the best sites on giftedness out there. (I, personally, think it's the best). They, also, have info on homeschooling and other resources (like books), available.

There are plenty of educational options available. Montessori (http://www.montessori.edu/) is a great option, but you will want to look into how strictly they adhere to the Montessori method. Do they allow for flexibility? For example, since your son is already doing basic math will they have him continually practice his numbers or will they let him progress from the level he is already at? Also, be sure that they let you audit the classroom from time to time. If they don't encourage parental involvement or try to make auditing the classroom difficult, then they are probably not a place you want your child in. (This pretty much applies to all preschools.)

Homeschooling does not have to be a solitary endeavor and can be fairly social. Check out the following links for HS reasources in your area: Regional and Worlwide Homeschooling A-Z: http://homeschooling.gomilpitas.com/regional/Indiana.htm
Yahoo! groups at groups.yahoo.com (just do a search on Indiana and homeschool).
Homeschool Blogger: www.homeschoolblogger.com

There are many resources and support groups available for homeschooling. You might be surprised. Try asking around at your local library as they may have a dedicated bulletin board, information and/or special events for homeschoolers.

Each state has different specific rules about homeschoolng. Be sure to look them up. Some want you to have a prepared cirriculum and to keep records others just want you to have a particular number of hours in a given year. It really varies.

Homeschooling doesn't mean that you *have* to spend 8 hours at home doing schoolwork, or that you have to strictly follow a set cirriculum, which by the way is something that you probably don't want to do with your son.) You can be more flexible and go to a museum and learn about art, for example.

Joining a local sports league or cub scouts or 4-H or taking classes like art or karate or just getting together a couple times a week with some friends, etc are all great for socialization. Special events at your local library, street fairs, etc., etc. are all great ways to be social, too.

I hope some of this is helpful. I'll be happy to provide more resources, answer questions and/or just provide information and support. I'm new at this, too. :-)

Most importantly, be sure to enjoy the wild ride!
Maria

Any more cute stories about our amazing kids? I could use a giggle....
Trin

It's kinda strange. If you suspect it, then imo, most likely your kid **IS** gifted.

For my first born, Rite15, it was clear from day one. He was holding his head up, making eye contact, flipping over from front to back...etc...before we even left the hospital after his birth. He was barking to imitate a dog at 5 months and said his first word "woof woof" at 7, which was followed immediately by a whole slew of uncountable words. He was speaking in full sentences and telling stories at his first birthday and showing signs of deep contemplation long before his second. (I think I posted the story of his asking me if the moon was a whole or a ball, when he was 19 months old).

Yup. With Rite it was just so very clear and still is. He's a phenomenal kid.

Mite on the other hand wasn't so obvious. I knew he was very bright. He started singing at 8.5 months (the Barney Song, which made me NUTS) then other songs and words quickly followed. What happened with him is he stopped. After that it was never clear again. I did feel when he was just under 3 that he was reading...really reading...his brother's chapter books, but he would never read aloud. His verbal skills were always very precocious and showed signs of a high ability child, but then other aspects of his development were more hidden....like couldn't write and such. Turns out in the "stats" he scores as high, maybe even higher, than Rite! I always felt there was something there, but never pursued it with him because I didn't follow my gut.

So, it is tricky thing. I still contend that it YOU feel your child is gifted, it is very likely s/he IS!! Follow your gut.

And for Trin an obligatory cute story...when Rite was 6 or 7 he was teasing his dad, who has a PhD. Rite said, "You have a PhD! D...get it PhDEEEEE for Dumb!!" Then he said, "I have a PhJ. Get it J for genius!"

;^)

I have a giggle! When my son was almost 2, he started repeating "Oh my God"...I think he heard it from a teenaged cousin or something. I, of course, was trying to correct this. So I told him if he needed to say it he should say "Oh my gosh" instead. One day he let it slip...I asked, "What did you say?" He said, "Gotch! I said 'Oh my gotch'". I just looked at him. He paused for a moment and said, "It's French for God." hehe

Oh, these are priceless. I love hearing these stories!

Since you twisted my arm (grin), here are a couple giggles from the past week:

DD6, talking about a play date with a friend: "She let me use some of her makeup. Just some lipstick. She was really nice. Except (pause, adapting a sad tone) I accidentally dissected her lipstick."

Me: "What do you mean? How did you 'dissect' her lipstick?"

Then DD6 described how she "accidentally" took the whole thing apart, and what the little parts inside the tube looked like.

***

DD6, to her siblings: "What's 2 minus 12?"
DS8: "You can't take 12 away from 2. You have to take 2 away from 12."
DD6: "Hunh-unh, that's not true. You CAN take 12 away from 2. The answer would be (brief pause) Negative 10."
DD12: "Actually she's right."
DD6: "The ones under zero are the negative numbers."
Me: "Who taught you about negative numbers?"
DD6: "Nobody. I just figured it out myself. It's like zero is the ground. The negative numbers have to live underground, with the bugs and stuff. And the other numbers live above the ground."


GG

I have read that 80% of parents are correct when they believe their child is gifted. With those odds, if you believe it, it is probably true so act accordingly.
My son is 15 months and we say he is "tracking as highly gifted" since formal testing can not be done at this point. We have had a 2 hour phone conversation about our ds with Dr. Ruf and it opened my eyes so much!
As far as what we have done differently - we definitely pay more attention to the environment that he is in. Because he is in daycare/preschool we make sure he is in a place that allows him to progress by his development, not by his age. We have also found a school he will begin in the fall and hopefully stay through age 12. I am very happy we started looking early because it took us quite a long time to find (even though it is just 10 minutes from our home).
There is so much information that is out there and knowing my son was gifted early allowed us to get a good start and a good handle of the possible things we will face in the future. It also helped us know when the shack "advice" off. For instance, young gifted children are often labeled as "spoiled" by others and many people assume parents have pushed the child into learning. Knowing these are common themes, when we face them (as we have already) we don't let it get us down or have us second guess ourselves. That, in itself, it a blessing.
So, definitely assume your little one is gifted. And for now, let her continue to do what she is doing, but for you - maybe doing lots of reading about giftedness, learning about your school situation EARLY (will she be allowed to start Kindergarten early, are grade skips possible, etc.), and definitely try to find other parents (we are still working on this one :)).

My kid giggles for the last week...

DS7 has been having problems with a classmate. We were discussing coping strategies, including avoiding her, and I suggested that if she stands next to him in line he could just move to the end of the line. He agreed that was a good idea and then said,

"But mom, that's not going to work if I am the penultimate person in line."

Jill, this made me laugh. Thanks for sharing the story. :-)

GG

I'm enjoying the giggles too --- I may have shared this before though.....

DS was 5 and we had already given up pre-reading all his books as he was reading so much - and was mostly into nonfiction anyway. Loved meteorology and geography. I'm probably giving away the punchline by typing this rather than saying it aloud....

Anyway, we bought him a geography book one day at a flea market. In the back seat on the way home, he informed us that Tennesee was the dammedest state in the country. My family is from Tennessee and we don't use that kind of language in our family - so I had a couple of concerns about this.

Where did you hear that?

Right here in my book. Says Tennessee is the dammedest state in the world.

Son, can you please read me word for word what the book says?

"There are more hydroelectric plants in the Tennessee Valley than in any other part of the world."

Mary

LOL, Mary, that's a classic. You did share it once before but I enjoyed it just as much the second time! You should send that one in to Reader's Digest.

GG

Our daughter was 3 at the time. I don't exactly know what prompted her to say this but she asked verbatim "If the devil is the one who causes all the badness in the world, then why doesn't God just annihilate him and everyone could be happy?" We were floored that her little brain could be so analytical and that she would even entertain a thought like this at her age. Maybe she is gifted; I still don't know.

Oh GG!
The negative numbers have to live underground, with the bugs and stuff. And the other numbers live above the ground."

I love that explaination, so that's why they come out mouldy sometimes!

Trin (being touched and random)

Hi Lovemybaby,
My son had similar thoughts at that age, and similar vocabulary! You know, some children are globally gifted and some are gifted in only one area. Sounds to me like, at the very least, your daughter is unusual at "big picture" thinking.
((smile))
Trinity

Oh, so sorry, Trinity I just asked if the gifted excell in all areas. Had I read this post I wouldn't have had to ask. Hmm...how interesting.

Lovemybaby,
Please don't appologise, it takes years to read and absorp and decide if YoU agree with this information. Part of the process is to review what your own life experiences and observations are telling you, and to observe if they shift as you learn more and see things through new eyes. I don't know if you are in the habit to journaling, hard copy or on computer, just go help you have a roadmap through the maze of new ideas. I think of it as posting to myself. We want to hear your thoughts and ideas also, but this process of learning to see the world in a new way is big.

((Big Smile))
Trinity

I thought of this thread last night when DS5 was writing his Valentines. I noticed that they were...wonky. Some were spelled wrong, some were really neat and others were very messy.

Turns out, he was compelled to address each Valentine in the handwriting and style of its recipient. For example, one child writes the "d" in his name backwards and it looks like an "h" instead, and DS very carefully copied that (had to erase a couple of times to get it just right). And if the children leave letters out of their name, that had to be mimicked, too.

Just another reminder that he notices EVERYTHING.

Christi

Christi - I love that story. When I was a kid, I had messy handwriting, but a neighbor sat down with me and listened while explained that "of course 8 should be written twice as big as 4." It helped.

LOL, that's good thinking, Trinity! Makes sense to me that 8 should be twice as big as 4. ;-)

I have to add, it was so much fun reading the Valentines from DS's classmates today. Now I can see that he truly had those names written exactly like the kids write them, especially the backwards "d" that looks like an "h".

Christi