Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy DS starting annual downhill slide at school

My DS8 who is in second grade at public school has begun what appears to be his annual downhill slide at school. His teacher wrote today to say that we need to create a behavior plan for him. In Kindergarten and 1st grade (and this year), his behavior was great in the fall and early winter. However, once January hit, he started misbehaving. And now it is happening again (e.g. correcting his teacher in a disrespectful way, not staying on task, making jokes and being silly when not appropriate).

I don't believe he is being challenged enough at school (although, not by lack of my trying to get him more!), but we've been compensating for this with activities outside of school (e.g. science and math tutor and lots of extracurricular activities). In many ways, he can act quite immature (e.g. potty jokes, difficulty sitting still). So his teacher and others have been hesitant to let him skip a grade and I think this also leads to their underestimating his abilities.

What I could really use is feedback from you all on if you think this is just a behavior/respect problem or do you think it's a result of his not being challenged enough? How would I know the difference? And why would it start in January each year?

Sounds just like our house! DS8 here has been horrendously bored with school since the new semester started, keeps asking why he has to take the rest of 3rd grade, why he has to go to school, why they have to learn stuff (which he really isn't doing much of anyway), the whole nine yards. He was doing well with behavior, but I've been fearing another outburst since he started talking about his "enemies" at school again.

We definitely have behavior/respect problems, no denying that, but it's exacerbated with boredom in school.

I would venture that one reason it might start in January is because every year he is hopeful that this year, he is going to get to learn new things in school, and by the time the year is halfway over, it is clear that he is not. By that point in the year, he has the routines down, the new teacher has failed to live up to his expectations, and he has lost respect as a result.

FWIW, I think most 8-year-old boys think potty jokes are funny - if they didn't, Captain Underpants wouldn't be such a hit with them. The fact that he acts like an 8 year old shouldn't disqualify him from getting appropriate instruction. He is, after all, an 8 year old. All children have the right to have an opportunity to learn things in school. It may be that if he has something to learn, he will find it easier to stay in his seat and refrain from telling potty jokes.

FWIW, For years I have dealt with the "correcting adults in a disrespectful way" issue, and I am just now learning that the correcting of adults may not be intentional "disrespect" at all on the part of an HG child, it is often an honest reaction and most adults are offended/threatened by it. Is there even a respectful way for an 8 Year old to correct an adult - no matter how right the kid is and how wrong the adult is? It takes a strong adult to not be defensive about being corrected by a child. If I had known then what I know now, I would have spent some time teaching my DD more role playing and behavioral therapy, it might have saved everyone a lot of stress.

Ahhhhhh... looking at your location...

have you noticed behavioral changes aside from school at this time of year?
What's he like on the weekends with you?


The reason that I ask is that we have learned to just "deal" with the fact that my daughter also has this "winter slump" every year. She is irritable and mouthy, and has insomnia problems-- and snaps out of it about March every year.
It was no big deal when we homeschooled, but it has been a major battleground every year after winter break since the semester end-date is at the end of January.
All she will voluntarily do at this time of year (Mid-December through the end of Feb) is read a book and work on independent projects. (This year it is hand-drawn animated short-films.)

Everything else is a struggle-- including getting her out of her pajamas some days. Not kidding. The first few years it happened (starting when she was about 3-4 yo) we assumed that it was the excitement of Christmas that led to the insomnia, but that didn't explain why it persisted into February each year. It was really frustrating.

We have had some luck with lifestyle modifications that help S.A.D., but it definitely didn't completely eliminate the problems. We have concluded that it is probably a combination of things: a) let-down about material lacking novelty/challenge, and b) seasonal affective issues. Judging from the past eight weeks, I think that was probably correct. Now that she's in HS coursework, and has more challenge as well as more 'choice' about courses, she seems to have not slipped quite so far into that hole.

I think that the radical improvement we've seen this year is definitely related to the step up in challenge from middle school coursework-- but it was still quite the battle to get her to 'turn it on' in order to finish the semester.

This is what happens to some people when they only get 8 hours of daylight this time of year. Darned northern latitude.

ETA: does this mean that I am not supposed to enjoy Captain Underpants?

Sounds to me like he's not being challenged. We've had same problem with our DS8 now in 2nd grade. His pre-school, K & 1st grade teachers "got" him and gave him extra challenges to keep him interested, long division in pre-K (which I thought was crazy), more advanced books to read, let him choose his own spelling words, etc. Now in 2nd, teacher says her "hands are tied by curriculum", so he's getting bored, and he's starting to "fall behind" in classwork and her assessments, while nevertheless getting 99th percentile in all areas on the state standardized tests. I digress... I agree with Nik, I don't think it's a behavior/respect problem, I think when your son sees a teacher do something wrong, he can't help but correct them. If the teacher means to write "their" instead of "there" on the white board, our son says something and he cannot understand why he shouldn't, and frankly I think it's OK as long as he's polite about it. Luckily his teachers thus far have appreciated it and not been offended. But as to not being challenged, it's very hard when the G&T programs in school are a couple hours here and there and most of the time the G kids are expected to go with the flow in the regular classroom. It's not enough. We are switching to an all day HG school with an open classroom and no grade levels. It's going to be an adventure, but we are very excited about the possibilities.

Oh and we have ALL the Capt Underpants books. Potty jokes and farting are hilarious in my house, at least to DH and DS. I insist on keeping a lid on it around others, but when it's the three of us, I'm outnumbered and can only roll my eyes...

Aculady, I think you are spot on! My DD does the same thing, though she doesn't act out, every January she complains about school and how easy and boring it is. It hasn't been as bad this year, because she was grade skipped this year. She only complained for a short bit, but ever since preschool, every January we have seen a cahnce in her take on school. This was the first year that it has been short lived. I really do think that every year she had hoped to learn something and then the newness of the school year has worn off and reality sets in that it's the same thing! This year in fact, when in her slump, she cried and said, I just don't understand why the school isn't capable of teaching me something I don't already know! How heartbraking to hear!!!! While you son may just be showing it by acting out, it certainly worth looking into that it isn't out of boredom!

Same thing with my 8 year old. He's complaining about school being boring and slow. Up until now, he was fine. We have the same problem with immaturity being perceived as inability to handle a higher grade. He loves potty jokes, doing things hoping to annoy me, and being wild and silly...but I chalk that up to being an 8 year old boy and am thankful I do not have to teach a classroom full of them!! We actually just got into DYS so when I get my assigned person, I am hoping to get advice from then as to how to approach the school regarding this. It makes me feel a little better to hear others go through the same thing. It is not like we are almost done with the school year for pete's sake...we have 4 full months to go!!! Nan

Thank you all for your responses. It's very helpful to get your perspectives.

Do you all think that our kids (or some HG kids) don't realize they are acting out because of being bored and frustrated that they aren't learning anything? I've asked my son several times in different ways why his behavior has changed at school. He never has an answer for me. However, at other times when we aren't talking about his behavior, he complains endlessly about not learning anything, being bored, etc. So do you think he's not capable of linking his behavior to the boredom and frustration?

HowlerKarma, I don't think it's SAD because while it has started in January each year for the last three years, it actually gets worse as the school year progresses. I almost pulled him out of school six weeks before the end of the last school year because it got so bad. We definitely cannot repeat that again this year!

I know my DD never verbalized the connection between boredom and behavior and it probably could have made her life better if she had.

I don't know whether she was unaware of the link between the behaviors and boredom, I just don't think she realized that there was any potential for change in her school environment, so she dealt with it the best way she could - which just got interpreted by the school (and I'm afraid to say myself for a while) as laziness, passive-aggressiveness, rudeness, spaciness etc. She was very quiet and shy so instead of acting up in the way you describe, she would just bring books and read through her classes and then shrug her shoulders with "I don't know" being her only response when asked why she didn't turn in her work etc.

I find this tread interesting. We have the same issues too. My DS8 has had behavioral issues since K. This year has actually been his best year so far. I see his mood changing towards school again. His general dis-satisfaction with school coming to head again. He and I have repeatedly asked his teacher for more challenging work, but receives none.

The hardest part is, his teacher does see his abilities and knows he needs more challenge, she has said this herself, but doesn't give it to him. She's too afraid to go into next year's curriculum or just doesn't want the extra work.

Is it possible to set up a little experiment at school for the teacher implement? The teacher wants a respectful well behaved child, right? Well, if your child complies, what does he get out of it? Maybe more appropriate work? Everyone gives a little. Do you think the teacher would entertain the idea? Both the teacher and the child win at getting what they want or need.

Just throwing out ideas.

Tall Boys,
I followed your link and found lots of good articles -
I particularly liked this thought:


I don't remember seeing that very important thought verbalized.
Well Done!

I hope this can be used by all the Advocates for backsliding kids to show the teachers how important it is to take the learning needs of EVERY child seriously.

yippee!
Grinity

Tall boys, I like your idea. I had thought about that maybe if he behaves well, his reward could be to go to the fifth grade's science class (he LOVES science). But then I started thinking that it still doesn't get to the core of the issue. So this afternoon I'm going to meet with his teacher and the school district's Talented and Gifted coordinator to ask for him to be skipped to 3rd grade for the rest of the year. I'm certain he could handle the content. And I figure that since he does fine for half the school year, he could start a new half of school year again right now.

I'm positive that this will be a HUGE uphill battle, mainly because the school principal is not open to grade skipping and their 3rd grade class is already full. But I'm feeling like a mama bear right now ready to fight, fight, fight (but of course in a respectful, productive manner!) for my little bear.

I wish you the very best! Let us know how it goes.

I think the full skip, and removing the cause of behavior problems is much wiser than getting into 'carroting' with the science. It seems to me that the temptation to 'drive the adults crazy' is so strong in these 'jump for the carrot' situations, that many kids decide that they'd rather watch the adults go ballistic than get their beloved learning.

Best Wishes,
Grinity

Good point, Grinity!!! LOL!

Now if you can get the teacher and school system to swallow the argument the rest seems easy.
Good Luck!
G

I just got back from the meeting with DS's teacher and the District Talented and Gifted coordinator. They both are supportive of the idea of moving him to 3rd grade. However, DS's teacher is worried about his immaturity. She said he probably is the most immature student in the class. (Yikes!) But she confirmed that she thinks he is "just bored out of his mind".

Now I have to set up a meeting with the principal. He will be a HUGE hurdle!

Thank you again for everyone's support and feedback. It's invaluable!

I have found that maturity comes for us from modeled behavior. When D8 landed in a 7th grade math class, he was a very immature 7 year old. Within two weeks of hangin' with the big kids, his behavior began to mirror theirs.

We haven't had any problems in months and the only time he got in trouble was for running out of the room without asking to go to the bathroom. When I asked him why he didn't ask, he said quite simply "there wasn't time!"

Point is, your DS probably will be a little immature at first, but he will adjust to fit in. Good Luck!

Excellent point Shari. I think immature behavior could stem from 2 issues.
1. Extra sensitivity without extra grace
2. A child trying to mimic age peer behavior and overdoing it because to the child the age peers behavior looks so babyish.
Ok add
3 More bordom than they are emotionally equipt to deal with.

Anyway. Glad u passed hurdle 1 and 2. Good luck with hurdle 3.
Remember to urge your princ to trust his staff and be willing to sign a document accepting risk of whatever has the princ spooked. Shows that you are serious and confident. Settle for agreeing to a trial if you must. Suggest that the coordinator meet with him every 2 weeks to be sure everything is ok.

Good luck
G

A few updates on my DS's situation...

DS's school tested him for his math level (finally!) and found that he is at a 7th grade level. (How he got to that level when they are still working on 7+0 in school is anyone's guess!) And we already knew that he reads at a middle school level. No wonder he is bored out of his mind! Poor kid...

I found out that there is a charter school in a neighboring community that is very unique. The students (k-12) are homeschooled, but the teachers from the charter school check in and work with the students twice a week, including in-person home visits twice a month. They provide the curricula and score tests, papers, etc. And they do the requisite state testing. They also arrange for a couple of field trips each month, including one each month to the science museum for a chemistry lab. With this school, your child can work at his/her own pace... so DS could be doing writing at 2nd grade, math at 5th grade, science at 7th, etc. They said they once had a 12 year old student taking college courses. This all sounds very appealing to me. Does anyone see any pitfalls? Anything I should check out that I might not have considered?

The charter school sounds much more appealing than the mid-year skip to 3rd grade. While his behavior would likely improve with the skip, it's apparent that he still won't be learning much...

Be sure to investigate how curriculum is actually "bundled."

With our school, for example, placement can be separated for math and, well, everything else. But language arts is the driver for the remainder of the curriculum. For many PG kids, this is far from ideal since their writing skill set is typically the weakest link-- and what that means in practical terms is that with the exception of math, they are still limited to the level of their own weakest skill set.

It's definitely better in that it is still self-paced; it's just not Nirvana.

Other things I'd ask (as veterans both of charter schooling in your state and a distance ed family in the public system)--

• what kind of stability do they predict? When is the "charter" due for renewal? (This is a political hot potato right now in OR... and you don't want to find a terrific solution only to have it evaporate on you in a year.)
• Who selects curriculum? Can you see any of it ahead of time?
• What happens if your child has questions for the teacher in between instructional sessions?
• Are the materials differentiated from standard curriculum? If so, how?
• what are grades based upon? who grades daily work and provides feedback to your child? (ask for DETAILS there-- often this type of schooling is heavily dependent upon multiple choice assessments like quizzes and exams, and little daily work or deeper learning is ever even assessed.)
• are there ever opportunities (other than field trips) for students to experience group instruction? How?
• is your child still officially enrolled in YOUR home district? Officially enrolled in this neighboring district? Where can students enrolled in this charter school go for extracurriculars/specials like music, athletics, etc.? (It may not matter to you-- but best to be informed, right?)
• Required attendance-- how is this verified? By whom?

If I think of more stuff, I'll edit it in or add it in another post.

We're in your state, and we're with one of the two big virtual charter schools. We have been for the last five years. It's better by far than B&M schooling-- but as I said, it's not perfect. Not by a long shot. It's definitely NOT 'homeschooling.' (Seriously-- if you do virtual schooling and you like the option, please make a mental note NOT to use the term "homeschool" for it. There are political reasons to be careful in explaining/discussing virtual education options in our state. )

Feel free to PM or e-mail me if you have specific questions about what the state itself mandates of virtual schoolers, and what I've learned (some of it the hard way) about virtual schools here.

Thank you for the great list of questions, HowlerKarma! I just went through all of them with the person who would be DS's teacher at the charter school.

I also double-checked that DS could be at a different grade level for each subject, if needed. She confirmed this and said that they will put together the curricula/courses individual to his needs/levels.

I also met with DS's current principal today and he is willing to have DS come in for about 1.5 hours each day for music/PE, as well as Spanish Language Development. So that will be great to have that access for DS to see his friends and stay connected with the Spanish he's been learning.

To be honest, this all sounds too good to be true right now. And I'm sure there will be some glitches along the way, but I'm excited about the prospect of at least trying something new for DS. Hopefully it will be a great fit! Cross your fingers for us!

Thanks again everyone for your wonderful support!

Oh, I'm just THRILLED for you! That does sound absolutely terrific.



I know that we have really loved the freedom of virtual schooling. I sometimes joke that virtual schooling is the "worst" of both worlds (meaning homeschool and public school) but the truth is that there are a lot of days when it is actually the BEST of both.

NTmom, SO happy for you! I wish you the best of luck. Your "annual downhill slide at school" comment made me reflect on my own ds10...You know, the classic "class clown" ... I guess I always knew in my heart that he didn't have a great fit at school but what really sealed it, was when I started to substitute teach. I always thought I knew but WOW, it really hit me. I can't believe (well, I guess I can) how much the schools "dumb" down the curriculum. I am seriously surprised our kids don't go crazy Grinity, love the 'jump for the carrot'...Hahahahaha

This got me thinking... We see a downhill swoop as well, usually midyear. DD is eight, in third grade. Her Map scores are always strange in the winter. She'll score 97th percentile or higher on everything in the fall, drop down in the winter (her math this time was 88th percentile) and pop back up in the spring. Last year (2nd grade) in math she went from 97th% in the fall, 80th percentile in the winter, up to 99th in the spring. She did the same thing again this year.

My dad works for NWEA and said, "I wonder why she struggled with math (88th %ile is struggling for her)..." Of course, the test is perfection in his mind. And never mind that she's a human being!

Any thoughts on the reason for this? I'm thinking she's just not into taking that test in the winter...