Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy more on "Chinese" moms

Did anyone see the article in Parenting for High Potential Dec issue about Dr. Maureen Neibhart?

I just read it at the GI's office this morning as I waited for the doctor. I thought it was interesting how she noted, as an objective analyst, the differences in western and asian parenting. Views of how we see our kids etc.

What made me write this post was Alaskamom and my posts about Alia Sabur. What struck me was how diverse her interests were and how she excelled at all of them. She played clarinet so well that she played with the Philadelphia orchestra while doing her PhD, she got her black belt in karate or some martial arts while a young teen and did volunteer work in LA after Katrina, while doing her PhD.

It made me think, is overscheduling a good thing for a PG child?

Just posting to provoke thought. Just as someone mentioned Condalezza Rice, this was a child who did music, dance etc. etc.

Maybe PG children thrive on the overscheduling.

Ren

I think that parents looking for ways to justify over-controlling the lives of their children always find a way.

I think that there are risks with forcing a child to do what mom wants because that's what mom wants. They have been discussed ad nauseum recently.

I think that many parents forget that love of music, sports, math, or whatever comes from within and that they cannot force passions onto their children. There is a difference between healthy exposure to something and unhealthy pushing.

I think I should stop replying to these threads, but I feel compelled to do so in the hopes that someone, somewhere, will read ideas that are skeptical of hyper-parenting, and one kid will be spared its toxic effects.

That's all.

I wonder, are there any actual "chinese" moms on here that can provide some insight?

My kids don't do any extra curricular activities mainly because we're broke but also because I just can't seem to find the time! They're too busy learning how to do laundry, make food and learn other things that will prove very useful later in life.

Hi Ren,

I watched a really interesting documentary about this (well, about over scheduling generally, not specifically for gifted kids) not long after the flurry of posts about the Chinese mother article. The show was called Lost Adventures Of Childhood.

It basically focussed on research in to what the impacts of over scheduling are. What the researchers featured found is that kids who are really scheduled, who don't have significant free time playing by themselves, - as well as unstructured play dates - had lost a variety of important life skills (of course I didn't pay enough attention to who did the particularly studies they mentioned, though they were from respected universities). In particular they lost the ability to use their initiative, to take calculated risks and they didn't develop leadership skills or normal social skills. They never needed to. Everything they did was organised and instructed by adults. Adults defined how they should behave, instructed them on what actions they should take - and the structure meant that in group and team sporting activities kids never really spoke to each other or worked with each other other than within the narrow limits defined by adults.

Now I appreciate that this was one show and I haven't looked in to it any further - dd only does one class a week and could do with a bit MORE scheduling I suspect! But the outcomes they spoke of seemed logical enough and I guess I don't see how these outcomes would necessarily be any different for a PG kid than an ND kid.

Don't get me wrong, I don't have an issue with extra-cirricular activities and giving kids lots of opportunities. I also think that when it comes to parenting, each to their own (not withstanding abuse of course), which is why I didn�t get involved in the Chinese mum thread. However, for what it�s worth, I know for certain that my initiative, common sense, and my leadership and social skills are more useful to me than anything else I've ever learnt in a class. So I�m going to aim for a mix � as �they� say, everything in moderation

I think that in the previous thread Wren was arguing along that end of the spectrum?

This idea has occurred to me after hearing about the schedules of a few families I know with PG kids. I know the kids well enough to believe that they actually thrive on lots of extracurriculars.

These are kids with two characteristics that, IMO, justify such scheduling: they have since infancy slept less than the average child (some, according to their mothers, basically never napped), and they have that unquenchable, always-on, intense drive to find things out. Hence their multiple foreign-language and musical-instrument lessons and participation in more than one sport at a time.

Remembering the tone of many posts I've seen on gifted forums wondering frantically how to occupy an extremely energetic PG toddler or young kid, I think their parents are just answering an intense need for learning opportunities.

To someone who doesn't know kids like this well, such a situation might look or sound like overscheduling. But for the kids, it's really just 'scheduling'!

I totally think it depends on the kid...I never pushed my DDs at anything but when they were quite young, we moved from So Cal to E. TX and because of the huge difference in cost of living I was able to stay home with them and sign them up for lots of activities. I thought they could just try everything out and see what they liked and we would go from there. They liked everything lol!!!

They took Karate, Tennis, TBall/Softball, Soccer, Dance (Ballet/Tap/Jazz), Swimming and Gymnastics (plus space camp, drama and science camps in the summers). They would be changing from dance outfits into softball/soccer outfits in the car while eating PB&J sandwiches as I drove them from one activity to another.

Once they were in regular school, the academics were really easy for them even in the gt program and after grade skipping/early entry so they didn't have to worry about finding much time to study or do homework. It was crazy and hectic but they both really thrived during this period. They weren't the best in the group at every activity but they held their own and they still stayed on top academically with straight A's.

When we moved again years later, we had to cut out most activities for financial reasons giving them more free time. Their temperaments have always been very different and they responded very differently to the change. One DD was always very sociable, she did just fine with the transition, using the free time to do things with friends. The other DD who was never too sociable to begin with just started to wilt.

I am looking back with new perspective now. My more sociable DD I think is what you consider "optimally gifted" while my other DD is either HG or PG (and possibly 2E). HGDD's grades went down after we moved so I took away the one extracurricular activity she had left and that just made things worse. I didn't realize it at the time but in hind sight I believe that being so busy with extracurricular activities helped her tolerate not being terribly challenged academically. I think she used school as her time to relax but once the other activities ceased, she became somewhat despondent.

"In particular they lost the ability to use their initiative, to take calculated risks and they didn't develop leadership skills or normal social skills."

I don't believe the crazy schedule caused one of my dds to lose abilities or fail to develop skills while not affecting the other dd at all in this regard. I do think the DD without the natural social tendencies thrived more in an environment of over-scheduling though. Not scientific, just anecdotal.

After saying each to their own, now I'm going to butt in again. I guess what I don't understand (and I am genuinely interested in the answer), is why does this need to learn and be stimulated have to happen outside the home? Why not provide kids with stimulating things to do at home too, which they can manage themselves? DD5 is really in to science at the moment, but she's just starting school. There are science clubs I could send her to, but in reality she's an introverted (though social) kid who I suspect will find 5 days a week in school a challenge from an emotional energy perspective. Once she's settled in we'll look in to activities more. In the mean time I've signed her up to one class and spent the money I would have spent on a science club on equipment for her to study science at home. I got a microscope, basic chemistry set, electronics kits, etc. This she can fill her time with, come up with her own ideas, set up her own projects. Even with an additional extra-curricula activity or two we would make sure she had access to and time for following her own interests in her own time (though I wouldn't have invested in all that stuff without being pretty sure she was going to use it - though it will all be useful over time anyway).

Now my kid is a demanding kid, she wants and craves interaction and stimulation all day every day. Sometime I wish I could hit the off switch. So I get that there are kids for whom 5 days a week of school simply isn't enough stimulation and they're going to want/need more - but I don't understand why all of it needs to be structured and directed and presented by an expert (though I appreciate there is a place for that too). There aren't too many passions that's can't be nourished, at least in part, away from a class.

I am interested in what benefits those of you, whose kids do do a lot of outsourced activities, see your children getting from being �overscheduled�? What makes it better than spending time footling about with your own ideas, in your family�s case? (Some have already been touched on I know, and I hope I don�t sound like I am being flippant � I am genuinely interested in the answer). Sorry Ren, I hope I haven�t hijacked your post � I think my questions are related, but will start new thread if more appropriate.

The family CAN provide some stimulation. One of our favorite things to do is "window math" - for some reason, learning new math skills is ten times more fun when it is done in dry erase marker on the back door. We take trips to local historical sites, state parks, etc - and both of the kids have a great time and learn a lot at the same time. But we can't do it all at home. DS7 recently got his black belt in tae kwon do. It gave my normally timid and self-conscious boy something to be really proud of, and there's no way I could have done that at home. I put both of them in team sports (although I let them pick their own sport) to help them learn to work as a team and keep them active. DS7 wants to learn music, and if he's asking, I'm certainly not going to tell him no - we're planning to let him start lessons on some instrument this summer. Plus he has school, Odyssey of the Mind, and other various activities. It's busy, but I also think it's important for him to have some time to just go outside and play with the neighborhood kids. A busy schedule has been good for him - when he has too much free time, he tends to get a little anxious. (He gets that from me - I'm happiest when I'm so busy I'm stressed out of my mind). My point is there's a balance to be found. You can keep them busy without giving them so much to do, they don't have time for friends and fun.

I totally agree! The more I have scheduled, the more time I seem to have and the higher quality of that time! We never seemed to lack time for family bonding, art projects, reading, cooking, creative play, friends, sleepovers, etc at home - even with all of the outside activities. Maybe in addition to "it depends on the kid" I should have added "it depends on the parent". I did as much as I could with my DDs at home without losing my mind, but they learned everything and moved on so darn quickly, and just seemed to need so much more than I could offer.

I think for our family, the busy schedule was good for all of us: we were all so intense we would have gone crazy and driven each other crazy spending any more time than we did cooped up together in the house. For my DDs, the scheduled activities were also fun time and friend time (in the batter box, watching siblings games with other older/younger siblings, waiting turns at gymnastics or swimming, there is a lot of socializing that goes on there.