Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Learning Environments From your experience, how difficult are Tip/CTY?

DD is kind of worried that if she takes a science course on something she doesn't know much about (Genetics, Engineering, etc), she will fall behind.
So from your experience, how friendly are these courses to students who don't have much prior knowledge of the topic? Or, on the other hand, are the courses too easy if someone already knows a lot (she is also considering Abnormal Psychology of Neuroscience, which she reads about all the time)?

Also, for anyone who's experienced both, would you recommend either CTY against TIP or vice versa based on the overall experience? DH favors TIP, DD favors CTY, but only by a bit, and wants to think about it a bit longer.

By the way DD got a 1920 in 7th grade, qualifying for both humanities and math/science.

For all we know, she will end up with a humanities as her top choice, and we won't even have to worry about difficulty :P

I don't think this really captures the spirit of these classes.

The only course my son, who had a 31 ACT reading score (7th grade), has taken through the TIP program so far was an e-studies course in the "humanities" section - Crime and Justice in America. According to the instructor's syllabus, it covered material at the level of a first-year law school course, and that seemed to be accurate. Because it was a summer course, they covered a semester's worth of material in 8 weeks. There was plenty of challenge - one of their assignments was to research and write an appellate brief - and there was a lot of technical information to learn, too. It just wasn't math-intensive. It did require extensive reading and quite a bit of high-level writing that involved the application of the course material to real-world scenarios. That said, the pre-existing knowledge base in the class varied a great deal, and from what I saw of the materials and the chats, the teacher did a great job of providing resources for students who had no previous exposure while not slowing the class down for those who already had some background.

I wouldn't assume that writing, literature, or social science courses aren't going to have large amounts of material to learn or that they will be easy just because they aren't STEM courses.

That not withstanding, your child should not go into *any* of these courses with trepidation. The purpose of taking them is not to make an "A", it is to learn, and to make connections with other gifted kids. Some of the students my son "met" online are now Facebook friends and e-mail correspondents. As much as he learned, and as much as he liked the challenge, the relationships he formed may have been the best part of participating.

The scoring rubric for the class is not going to be based solely or primarily on number of correct answers on tests. My son's instructor gave timely, thoughtful, and targeted feedback on every single assignment, and was more than happy to answer extensive, detailed and sometimes obscure questions through e-mail and the regularly-scheduled on-line chat sessions.

I can't speak to how TIP compares with CTY, but I can tell you that my son highly recommends TIP to anyone who qualifies for it.

My D has taken the Modern Medicine course at Duke TIP -Davidson. The curriculum was extremely unique. This was not material that is covered in biology classes, and is most similar to first-year medical school curriculum. It was very challenging, but manageable. There was a large amount of "homework" outside of the class, which was unlike the other classes taught there from what I understand. None of the kids had been exposed to more than a fraction of the material before.

The director of summer studies programs at TIP says that they try to create classes that are not standard fare - not the usual biology, chemistry, history, etc - but classes that draw on different disciplines and put together in unusual ways. In looking at TIP vs CTY, that seems to be a slight difference in philosophy. CTY offers a lot of accelerated science classes (fast-paced biology, chemistry, etc) that TIP does not offer.

The reason my D loves TIP (and is planning to do it again this year) is that the class is so different from anything she is exposed to at school. The value of these programs, in my opinion, is not to provide acceleration per se, but to get the kids interested in something outside the usual curriculum, at a pace and intensity that is more appropriate for their abilites and with similarly-talented peers.

I'm not familiar with the genetics class, but since it is restricted to rising 10th and 11th grades, I would think that anyone with reasonable biology background would do fine.

Just wanted to add- D's TIP teacher highly recommended the Genetics class - supposedly intense and progresses rapidly. I think there may be some variation in the classes in terms of intensity, but the idea is to learn, not to worry about grades as aculady mentioned.

We have no experience with their classes and I hope you don't mind my asking a quick question. Are you all talking about CTY summer classes or online classes or something else? Dd12 was kind of disappointed with both of her summer class experiences (one through CITY before they broke off to become CBK and another STEM program through a local middle school). She did those when she was 9 and 11.

We're trying to figure something else out for her for this summer that isn't too simple.

Hi Cricket2,
Curious - When you say your DD was dissapointed, are you referring to summer courses for CITY/CBK in Denver or Johns Hopkins CTY?

I was curious since I was possibly going to consider CITY/CBK program for my younger DD this summer (the 1 week program) just because she cannot not get away for 3 weeks in July.

My older DD did the JHU CTY at Stanford last year and loved the Science and Engineering course...(she is a sciency kid)

CITY/CBK. Granted this was two and a half summers ago and I have no idea what their stuff is like now... I think that the major issue for her was that the course she took was in her major area of passion, she was in the program for 4th-6th graders and she was coming out of 4th, and the instructor didn't have a college degree and wasn't working on one. I suspect that the courses that were run by current uni students who were majoring in the subject of the course or by people who had degrees in the subject area might have been more in depth.

She's extremely knowledgable about this specific area (I've learned a lot from being around her!), so she wants more than the typical fare for bright kids of her age who might not have studied the topic as much.

She really liked the instructor, but just didn't feel like she learned a lot that she didn't already know.

Oops, I think you were clear that you were referring to CITY/CBK - I just read too fast.

I would be interested in hearing you opinion though about CITY/CBK. I was indeed considered about the "engagement level", and we would have to fly her out, so the program would have to be great.

I think this year, we will just stay in town and try on-line courses through JHU CTY instead (writing courses). Both DDs have done the Literature classes through online CTY the past summers and really enjoyed those.

Maybe we will consider TIP/CTY the following summer. My DD really "grew" while she was away, I think it is a great experience for the kids. However, both DDs are serious year-around swimmers, so it's hard for them to get away for so long in the middle of the summer season.

Thanks for the feedback, Cricket2! We were writing simultaneously...

Sorry, I wasn't trying to say that non-STEM courses are easy, because they do both take significant amounts of work, but I still personally believe that half the battle with STEM courses is understanding the topics, while in Humanities, learning the material might be kind of difficult, but it is the reading and writing and applying this that is the real challenge- but reading and writing are never impossible. In STEM, sometimes material just "doesn't make sense". I'm not saying this will happen to DD, but she naturally feels less apprehensive going into a Humanities course, knowing that she may get some hard assignments, but that with hard work, she can be very successful, instead of the apprehension of "what if I don't understand something and can't ever get caught up?" that may precede a science or math course.

Thanks for the review of the program, though! We are probably signing up in the next days, as applications are supposed to go up tomorrow.

Also, does anyone know about the Duke TiP Institutes? They look really cool, but they certainly don't have the 700 facebook fan groups that you can find for the Summer Studies programs, in fact, I've not found one review of them.

We've had experience with CITY/CBK, CTY and TIP. Please note that each year these programs evolve so some info is old. Oldest DS says his hardest summer was CITY/CBK 3 weeks in Denver when they used to offer 2 courses. Now CBK 3 wk program is held at Colorado School of Mines in Golden and many of the courses sound very high-tech (whereas they were more varied at the Denver campus). I do not doubt the challenge level at School of Mines. My two youngest DS's have done the one-wk program for 4th-6th graders and enjoyed them, but for all the effort of getting them there and back, one week is too short.

One DS took CTY's Stanford program for 5th and 6th graders and loved it (he's the hardest to please and to challenge). Highly recommended. We've also done JHU CAA (Santa Cruz)- second DS's favorite program to date. He did CTY JHU campus which was his most challenging to date. One DS did CTY's oceanography in Hawaii and enjoyed it thoroughly. One did CTY's F&M campus and enjoyed it.

Oldest did Duke TIP East Campus and loved the course, though he said it wasn't as hard as CITY/CBK. Second did Duke TIP Davidson and said it wasn't as good as JHU CAA.

Summary: for folks who are not close, I'd wait to do a 3 wk program (CTY over CITY/CBK for younger students). After that, it's a toss up and I encourage the kids to pick a course that they're passionate about or that's outside their area of knowledge (so they learn something new). I also try to pick a campus that would be on our college tour (Duke, Davidson, Stanford, etc.) and move into pre-college programs sophomore or junior year.

Bassetlover - I only know one person who did the Institutes program, and that was several years ago. I think it is a little less intense, and may bring in some kids who otherwise wouldn't qualify for the summer programs - there are no hard cutoff scores like the Center/Academy programs. They are also shorter in length from what I see- 2 weeks vs. 3 weeks for Center/Academy. The Institutes offers some interesting locations, too.

I think the difficulty varies with the individual class, not the program (CTY vs TIP specifically). My D's roommate at TIP took a writing class and spent her free time socializing, while D studied for the tests that were given almost every other day. To me, it comes down to location and specific classes that interest my kids.

I think one has to watch out for this problem in kids with specific interests. LOG and where in that age group a child falls also make a big difference. If a child is on the higher end due to LOG or age, and has a specific area of interest, I would steer them to explore a different area that they are less experienced in.

My son loves CTY summer programs, not so much for the academics, but for the social experience. I think he put more effort into learning to swing glowsticks than he did into the classroom experiences. I was delighted to see him working so hard at glowsticking and being willing to persevere even though it hurts when you miss. He knows plenty of kids that wouldn't like CTY because it isn't academic enough. It really is more of a pretext of an academic experience so that kids can get together for a social experience. From his point of view.

Hope that helps,
Grinity

My D15 has the opposite concern from the original poster. She wants a HARD summer program (went to Davidson THINK last summer, so that is her benchmark ). 2 college courses in 3 weeks is what they do at THINK. She has heard from friends that CTY is not as rigorous (what is?!?), so said she does not want to go even though they offer some classes more in her specific area of interest (biology). Mind you, she has not been to CTY, just strictly word of mouth.

I tend to think that your DD is absolutely correct, and she is old for CTY, and high LOG for CTY, so shouldn't go in an area where she is strong,(biology) probably not at all unless she wants to explore her weakest area and is only going to enjoy the social aspect.
It amazes me how well that teen-social-information-network works.
Smiles,
Grinity

At that age, I would think a pre-college program would be more appropriate, although I don't have any experience with those yet.
Or how about an internship - maybe NIH?

Yes, but she is deeply disappointed that there are no science offerings at THINK this year. All of the other research programs we can find in biology require them to be rising seniors, except one that now has lost its state funding and is not happening The THINK application is sitting on the counter, due next week. She is probably going to go back to THINK and take classes that are not as interesting to her, and just do some self study bio work this summer.

Thanks, Cym, for sharing your DCs experiences in a compact way. These will definitely be helpful as we look beyond CTY in the future.

In honesty, though, if DD could work from home and take an extremely challenging course, she would *love* it. It's the other kids that form their own "she's dumb" or "she is too slow" thoughts that scare her.
Having said that, THINK was her first choice, and it's the hardest summer program. She had heard from others (on cogito, etc) that it's less social and more intense work, so the people aren't judgmental. (not to mention that DD is *not* a social or a camp person, so all she really is going for is to learn) However, they had to offer a speech course, along with 2 other duds in the same time slot. ("I was so excited when I saw anthropology.. but then I saw three courses I *really* didn't want to take as my other option")
From what she's heard (from kids probably in a lower scoring range, mind you), CTY/TIP can be *very* difficult. I guess those claims have to be looked at with more scrutiny, now that I've heard from you that they aren't very hard.

CTY doesn't give grades or homework. There is no 'working on your own after class.' The kids are expected to focus during the many hours devoted to classroom and then go play with each other after. Most of the teachers seem kind of 'wow these are amazing kids' and more likely to just appreciate them where they are than to push them to the next level - just my vibe. I think of it as 'wonderland for PG plus ADD kids' who like to play with big ideas but don't want to be pushed to their next level of growth during the summer. DS did a regular 'debate camp' right before his first CTY and it was much much harder because they expected the kids to work. CTY is more like the mamma who presents the toddler with a tray full of delicious healthy food and lets the baby choose what appeals, and how much. Both are needed.

For the High LOG 2E kids or the ones who are recovering from enforced underachievement or the ones who cope with regular school by developing oddball interests and taking them to the nth degree, CTY is a blessing.

I hope that helps,
Grinity

From my kids' experience - speaking from the upper scoring ranges - there are very challenging classes at TIP. We looked at THINK, and the odd class pairings were not appealing. TIP offers some classes that are unique - as has been said earlier - and the students are starting on equal footing in many ways because no one has been exposed to the material before. The classes are designed to be put together in a way that offers terrific enrichment, not really acceleration (other than the math classes). So, there is no basis for students to judge each other, because these are not subjects they have seen in school. The grades are given in confidence, not shared with the class.
PM me if you have other questions.

Bassetlover, I am so glad to hear someone else also say that the afternoon classes for THINK this summer are "duds". So it isn't just us. D's application form is sitting on the counter. She needs to write her essay about why she wants to take the classes she signs up for... she would readily take any of the 3 morning classes (esp. Anthro, but she would be okay with the other two), but the afternoon classes just do not appeal at all. So the essay is not started yet. Due next week, so she will write it this weekend. She still wants to go because she loves the intensity, and we can't find any other appropriate bio programs for the summer. A couple of promising research programs that accept sophomores lost their funding this summer

Someone suggested NIH -- those internships are very hard to get, and they do not provide housing. We live in the Midwest, so not this summer. I figured she might apply for one of those the summer after her senior year of HS (her sister will probably be living in the DC/Maryland area by then, out of college, so she would be able to keep an eye on things if younger D is living on her own for the summer).

Sorry to derail the thread

Truth is, we didn't like last year's courses either. Well, we liked, once again, all of the morning, but none of the afternoon.

No worries about derailing the thread. These programs cost a lot, and DD has been *dying* to go to one for years, so we feel like we need to make a smart decision about the one to go to, because she will, at most, only go 2 years, and probably just once.

D took the biology course offered last year, and it really lit a fire in her for bio (she hadn't had it in school yet, taking it this year). And then the philosophy class as well last year (which she actually liked quite a bit). But she does not really want take Philosophy AGAIN from the same prof, even with different readings. So your D might actually like that choice (Philosophy) this year, D just feels like she has "been there/done that" after last year. She probably will sign up for the philosophy course anyway (it is something about philosophy and science, she figures maybe there is something in there she could use in college or summer program essays for next year when she applies for bio research programs ).

D did LOVE the intensity, and they are really supportive if the kids are struggling. It was a big confidence booster to find out that she could do well with such a bright group of peers. She was nervous before going, but did really well. She is a kid who often does "just enough", and is rarely truly challenged. I think she relished that part of it more than the actual course content. It is too rare that these kids get to run their jets at full throttle!

Speech seems like a very odd class to offer for this group. D said it is a relatively introverted group. Some exceptions, but generally.

Apologies in advance for side-tracking the discussion, but I was curious since it came up.

Grinity: which debate camp did your son do? Since we've decided not to go away in June or July (like CTY) this year, I was looking into summer debate programs for my rising 6th and 7th graders, noting that many debate camps are offered in August as well.

thanks in advance!

Most of the debate programs that are 'sleep away' are geared towards high school aged. I sent my son as a rising 1 year skipped 9th grader, and I 'might' have over-done it. The serious camps are geared to older high school students. DS loved it, but well, it's hard to get things 'just right.'

Wikipedia Debate Camp for more info.

thanks, Grinity, for the quick reply. Yes, we will be looking for debate programs for middle school kids, since neither DD have formal debate experience.

I am a bit confused. Did your son only do one CTY camp and it was in debate? Is that your basis for saying the courses are not very challenging?

My son did a science course that we picked because it appeared to be less intense and had a field work element. However, friends took some of the more intense courses and found them challenging including fast-paced science (in place of taking the class at high school) and economics and philosophy. These courses were not easy and were in depth.

I would agree that for a 15yo, taking a class outside of her area of high knowledge and interest might provide a better learning environment.

Srry ajmom - The debate camp was different from the CTY camp experience.

If I said that, it wasn't what I was trying to say.
Peace,
Grinity

This is the 1st time I am hearing about TIP.
I see my son would qualify but we don't live close.
Do they have any good online classes?

My son took one of their classes online last summer and really enjoyed the material and the peer interactions. He still keeps in contact with some of the other students through e-mail and Facebook.

Hi aculady,
So, do all the students have to pass the EXPLORE test?

My son entered the program through the 7th grade talent search, so he got in on the basis of ACT scores, and the course he took was through the e-studies program. He had to qualify through the TIP program to be eligible to enroll.

According to the TIP website, the talent search programs for younger students require qualifying scores on a standardized test. The acceptable tests and scores are listed here:
http://www.tip.duke.edu/talent_searches/grades_4-5/enroll.html

Duke also offers Independent Learning courses that anyone can order, with offerings from 4th grade on up.

Thank you Aculady,
I was cofused on the site thinking the qualifying tests only qualify them to take the Expore test sort of like for CTY the IQ scores qualifies them to take SCAT.

I was in TIP and I loved it. The 8 hours a day of one topic was difficult, but having all these kids around who were like me, for the first time in my life...it was liberating. I think it's what got me through a lot of my Junior High and High School years.