Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Identification, Testing & Assessment subtest scores

Hello,

I posted a while back about my DS10's WISC IV scores. Several of you suggested that I ask for the subtest scores, and that this may shed more light on his gifts/difficulties.

Here they are

VCI= 142, rang centile = 99.7
similarities = 15 (rang centile = 95)
vocabulary = 19 (rang centile = 99�.9)
comprehension = 17 (rang centile = 99)

PRI = 113, rang centile = 81
blocks = 12 (rang centile = 75)
picture concepts: score d'�quivalence = 12 (rang centile = 75)
matrices: score d'�quivalence = 12 (rang centile = 75)

WM = 109, rang centile = 73
number sequences = 11 (rang centile = 63)
letter number sequences = 12 (rang centile 75)

PSI = 100, rang centile = 50
coding = 9 (rang centile = 37)
symbol search = 11 (rang centile = 63)

FSIQ = 123, GAI = 132

The only thing that strikes me from the subtests is that he did not do well on coding. He does have below average visual-motor coordination (although his hand writing is not too bad, I guess its a bit slower than most) -- could this be the reason that the coding substest was low?

He does show some characteristics of either ADD or NVLD - disorganized, forgetful, etc.

I switched him from a Montessori school to a regular public school this year, and there has been a great improvment in his behaviour at school (he no longer refuses to do his work, and doesn't disrupt the class.) In fact, his new teacher considers that he works hard and is well behaved. However, he makes so many careless errors on tests (forgetting to answer questions, etc) and forgets to bring home papers/homework so often that I am a bit worried about the future. He is getting As and Bs right now, but the work is really easy for him. The other thing I worry about is his general negative attitude and dislike of school.

Should I persue some other testing for attention problems? Should I consider medication? He is taking omega-3s, but I haven't noticed much change.

Verona

I can't remember if you said whether or not he was tested in any other areas. Clearly he is very bright, but there is a lot of scatter from one index score to the next and the WMI and PSI are relative weaknesses that could point to attention difficulties. But, ADHD and or executive functioning problems cannot be diagnosed by the WISC alone.

If he is struggling with organization and attention, it may be wise to get more information. It could be ADHD, NVLD or EF issues (or other difficulties), but without more data, you really can't rule anything in or out. Certainly as the pace and volume of school work increases as you head to Middle School, he might struggle dispute excellent thinking ability. It would be good if you had more information and if needed could intervene now with specialized instruction in the areas of meta-cognition, medication or other approaches.

He hasn't had any other testing done except a reading and writing achievment test (4 years above his age in reading, and pretty much age level in writing). He also had a test for auditory processing, which didn't show a disorder in this area (although I have noted that he has trouble locating sounds and often doesn't seem to hear me when I talk).

He has some sensory processing issues, that seem to have gotten better with age. He still seems to have some trouble regulating his level of arousal. He is low key and somewhat lethargic much of the time.

The psychologist who did the testing suggested NVLD, but I'm not so sure. He has no trouble organizing his thoughts on paper, has excellent reading comprehension and a great sense of humour.

I would suggest further testing. The school may not be able to do it, and you may need an outside psychologist. The good thing is that so much is done already. If he has sensory issues, you may want to look for a neuropsychologist to do the additional testing. They will look for ADHD as well as memory and processing issues.

The GAI is a decent estimate of IQ taking out the motor issues.

Thanks for the responses.

The testing was done with a private psychologist, not through the school. He thought that the WISC IV + Conner's scale (parents and teacher) + reading comprehension + writing test would be enough to determine any learning difficulties. Based on the results, he said that DS is verbally gifted but has a NVLD (but not ADHD, I think based on the Conners score?). The NVLD was based on the big difference between the VCI and PRI and also his relatively poor result on the writing test (which I think was not really representative). Would a neuropsychologist do a different battery of tests than a psychologist specializing in psycho-educational assessments?

I may not do any further testing right now, as DS10 feels that even the tests that we have done so far are a "waste of time". He sees himself as a "normal, average kid". And maybe in a way he is right -- perhaps his strengths and weaknesses average out so that he functions more or less like an "average" child in the class (now that I have taken him out of the unstructured Montessori program, which in retrospect was probably not a good choice for him).

I'd like to know about possible future testing though, in case his organizational issues start causing him more trouble later on.

He needs this test - Woodcock-Johnson Test of Achievement-III (WJ-III Ach)
to compare what use he has been able to make of his education so far.

He is certainly gifted, and really very close to qualifying for YSP on his VCI. If there is a pediatrician or other professional in town who 'thinks everyone has ADHD' then take your son to that one and at least try a few stimulant medications and observe. I don't really think he has any diagnosis that has been developed so far, but that doesn't mean he wouldn't really enjoy and benefit from having all his gears turning at about the same speed. Your son has tremendous bottlenecks and without medicine and a private tutor is truly an 'average kid' in a lot of ways. And then there is his reading and vocab - Not Not not average.

His profile makes him very difficult to accommodate - unless you are ready to homeschool him you are going to have to concentrate on very small goals. The good news is that he does have interests. Fan the flames of whatever desires he has. Most kids have at least one strength among WM and Processing speed. Yours has bottlenecks in both - that's a lot for even the biggest intellect to lift.

You are going to have to be a pioneer and develop that 'Mommy-guidance-gut.'

Hugs!
Grinity

I'd agree with Grinity. My dds have lower WMI and/or PSI as well but it makes such a difference for the dd who is low in both. My older dd is only low in PSI. Her WMI was around the 95th percentile which was nearly in line with her other abilities. She has been well able to achieve very highly in school with just some accommodations for a little extra time in a few areas.

Dd10, on the other hand, had the exact same score are your ds on VCI although the 15 and 17 were transposed (15 for comp and 17 for similarities, and 19 for vocab). She was also in the 99th for PRI, which overall makes her GAI higher than her sister's. She doesn't appear anywhere as able in a school setting, though, and I do wonder if having average WMI and PSI rather than just one lower might be part of her issue.

She was recently dx with ADD and anxiety. The way I am coming to think about it over the years of seeing my girls (hopefully not wrongly so!), is that VCI and PRI tell you the child's potential or intellectual ability whereas WMI and PSI give him/her the ability to express that potential. Both WMI and PSI can be dropped to calculate GAI b/c they are less of a part of the general ability, but they are important if you want to be able to show that you have that ability. For a child with weaknesses in both, it really is hard to appear as able as you are. I know that my younger dd has had a lot more academic frustration than her sister.

eta: I've also known a very few kids with higher WMI and/or PSI than the other two (average in VCI and PRI) who are also quite high achieving and ided as gifted despite fairly average FSIQ scores. Speed and memory can make a child appear more able than he is b/c he can remember the info and feed it back on a test, for instance, even if the conceptual understanding is lesser.

Thanks Cricket2 - I was a little nervous about my post above. I have the low WM and my son has the low PSI and I was extrapolating. There aren't tons of PGlets running around in this situation - usually like to give advice based on direct experience.

I will say that some kids score low on WMI and PSI because of other issues and their 'true' WMI and PSI is well above average. Anxiety and perfectionism do it all the time. But based on the toothbrush story and the parental frustration level, I'm guessing in the OP's situation that there are quite an accurate reflection.

I think ADHD, or Executive Function Challenges can be good names of whatever it is that is causing the WMI and PSI to be 3 standard deviations below the strengths. I think some kids are just 'born that way.' I think that some of us are here so suprised to be raising 'hugely gifted kids' when we grew up feeling soooo stupid.

I would edit what you posted a bit: Both WMI and PSI can be dropped to calculate GAI b/c they are less of a part of the general ability, but they are important if you want to be able to show that you have that ability (IN SCHOOL.) School is not life. Really. If we can teach our kids to have good 'know thyself' skills and good character and good work ethic and love of engagement then I think they will have good lives where their giftedness can show. It will probably take much longer than our less spiky profile kids. Each of us was created for a reason, given exactly the set of challenges and strengths we were given.

I do believe that any kid who is scoring over 140 in Verbal or Performance IS GIFTED. No matter how they perform in school. No matter if they forget to brush their teeth. No matter if they get conditioner confused with shampoo and develop the greasiest head in the world. No matter how they score on those other subscales. No matter what their spelling skills are like. And that as they grow up, there is every chance that they will find a way to make their unique contribution. Getting them there is a hard road and painful. But I hope that together we can provide enough support for each other to make it work.

Cricket2 - next time you see your DD2, let her know that 'Aunty Grinity' grew up with a much more academic superstar sibling and that she is sure that DD2 has her own 'special destiny' and please hang on and learn all about everything as much as she can so she'll be ready when the time comes, ok? If not in those words, than something else with the same spirit.


Love and More Love,
Grinity

Just to add, I also see lower/average WM scores in gifted kids who are not necessarily highly motivated in tasks that require lots of mental energy (because they like things that come easily). It takes A LOT of mental energy to remember number sequences, and letter-number sequences. Do you have a digits forward vs. digits backward subscore?

This is also true of kids with ADHD- so it is good to figure out if it is just motivation or is it ADHD.

And thank you. A year ago I was questioning whether dd10 was gifted at all let alone HG so it is funny for me to see her grouped in with PGlets . I am starting to see that being fairly gifted doesn't always look the way it does with her sister, though. Dd10 really shines in making connections. We were playing charades the other night and, wow, that kid can connect someone making a peak with her hands in the shape of a mountain, pointing at the ceiling, and then making the letter "t" with two hands to correctly come up with "Mount Everest" (high mountain in a region where they drink tea).

That would be my dh. Unfortunately he is still convinced that he is soooo stupid. Last night was a disaster. I am doing everything -- working two jobs, doing all of the house stuff, cooking so he doesn't come home and eat crud and continue to ruin his already tenuous health, helping kids with homework, taking care of pets... I'm totally burned out and was really on edge when he got home late from work. His response is to tell me that I need to do less which amounts to less in terms of doing stuff with the kids in his mind. He kept screaming at me & dd10, "just let her fail" (to me) & , "do you want to be homeless when you grow up?"" (to dd).

The goal, I'm sure, was to reduce my stress by taking something off my plate (helping dd figure out how to avoid overlooking parts of the directions on a test she has today), but wound up making me more stressed and having her up late crying. He's really, really not helping to put it lightly. If he didn't grow up and continue into adulthood feeling so stupid and like such a failure himself, I wonder if he might not be screwing up so much in passing the same baggage on to our kids.

Sorry to vent! I'm just having a really hard time today and it is a rare day off of work.

You are right. I just hope that dd doesn't come out the other end unable to see that b/c the combo of teachers who don't believe she's very able and her father have ruined her confidence. I have given a dx from her counselor of ADD and Anxiety Disorder to the TAG teacher but haven't heard anything back about the 504 we've requested. Dd also wasn't given extra time for the test she's taking today I suspect b/c she didn't do better with the 10-15 mins of extra time she got on the last tests.

Even though I know that I am a thorn in their side right now, I'm going to have to bite the bullet and push for the 504 for dd. I'm pretty sure that the TAG teacher believes that dd's struggles are due her being not able enough in the math class rather than anxiety and ADD and she's less inclined to keep trying to find a way to make it work for that reason.