Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Identification, Testing & Assessment Would truly appreciate feedback- huge testing gaps

I've been reading all the great replies about test scores, and have started to get an idea of what is going on with my 12 year old--but I'd really appreciate hearing any feedback I could get about his specific scores. I don't really understand what these gaps mean.

I came by this board investigating his talent search ACT scores--English 28, Reading 30, Science 26, Math 18.

I was told based on the scores below (done just before the ACT) that he has severe dyslexia and dysgraphia, with a good possiblity of NVLD. Now, after seeing how well did on the ACT (with audio version used in reading and science to accommodate his dyslexia--he didn't use any accommodation in math and english) I'm confused.

After the psycho ed eval below--specifically the processing speed, fluency and coding scores-- I was very discouraged that the writing/organizational demands of high school and college would overwhelm him and that we needed to rethink his plans--we homeschool in a low reg state so I'm free to do my own thing. I just have absolutely no idea what that should be. Trying to reevaluate things over the Christmas break and I'd love to hear any feedback at all!

Thanks in advance!!

Wisc
Similarities 18
Vocabulary 14
Comprehension 16
Block Design 14
Picture Concepts 11
Matrix Reasoning 11
Digit Span 9
Arithmetic 14
Coding 4
Symbol Search 11
Verbal Comprehension 136
Perceptual Reasoning 112
Working Memory 107
Processing Speed 85

WJ-III
Cluster/Test RPI SS (68% Band)
Brief Achievement 93/90 104 (101-107)
Brief Reading 97/90 113 (109-117)
Brief Math 99/90 123 (119-127)
Academic Skills 93/90 104 (101-109)
Academic Knowledge 99/90 129 (120-130)
Academic Fluency 67/90 78 (75-82)

Letter-Word Identification 95/90 106 (102-110)
Calculation 99/90 126 (120-132)
Spelling 52/90 87 (84-91)
Passage Comprehension 98/90 118 (112-124)
Applied Problems 99/90 116 (112-119)
Reading Fluency 88/90 98 (93-103)
Math Fluency 75/90 81 (78-83)
Writing Fluency 27/90 70 (64-75)
Word Attack 86/90 98 (95-101)

The two tests that play into the processing speed index are the coding and symbol search ones. Symbol search deals more with visually scanning data although it does require some motor coordination to mark down your response. It, however, is less likely to be impacted by dysgraphia than coding. His coding score is quite low -- well below average which would be a 10. Symbol search is within the typical range. Has he rec'd any OT for his dysgraphia?

If you do go with public high school I'd definitely seek a 504 plan to provide him accommodations so he can perform to his ability. It does sound like his disabilities are standing in the way of performance rather significantly. Since it appears that he'd at least be an average student, the school may not see it that way, but his ACT scores and VCI (verbal index) do speak to a child with much greater potential than average.

Thank you so much for your time Cricket2.

Yes, he was in OT throughout most of elementary school for sensory issues and the dysgraphia. He also went through some pretty time-intensive OT sessions with Tomatis therapy, during which he'd spend 15-18 hours a week in OT--much of that time was spent working on writing issues while he did the listening therapy. So I'd say he had pretty extensive OT, although due to insurance changes he hasn't had it since age 10. I've also worked with him one-on-one on it very seriously for the entire 6 years of homeschooling. He just can't seem to make a breakthrough.

I finally resorted to allowing him to type his assignments so the dysgraphia wouldn't hold him back. Between that and audio textbooks, he's been able to come a LONG way academically. The core issues remain though, and I'm so concerned that while he is academically able to handle HS/College work, the dyslexia/dysgraphia/executive problems will prevent him from doing so independently. He leans on me quite a bit between dictating papers to me, oral exams, and me covering the executive issues.

I ended up looking here because I realized that his ACT scores were at the high end for the Duke TIP and I wondered what the next level up might be. I was so excited to see the mention of 2E counseling--and dug up his other test scores to see how far off he was on the Verbal score for Davidson. We have several 99% from WJIII tests (we do it yearly for our state requirements) but I'm seeing there is a long way between 99% and 99.9%. I'm glad I found this site though, I've found lots of great info on these boards about the testing gaps.

I've noticed much discussion of VCI, PRI, and GAI scores here, though those exact terms were nowhere on the test report. When you say VCI, is that just the Verbal score alone? Is there a way for me to determine those? That would really help me in applying what I'm learning from old posts.

Also, how rare is such a large gap--the 85 processing speed vs the 136 verbal were quite shocking to me, as well as the 70 on writing fluency. With writing accommodation and oral exams he is doing 9th grade work and is starting his 3rd semester of dual enrollment community college classes. I'm having a hard time with the realization that these writing/executive issues aren't going to work themselves out with maturity as I'd hoped. I really appreciate your feedback. I feel overwhelmed being the sole teacher and guidance counselor for him as we progress through high school. There are too many big decisions that don't fit the normal LD or gifted profile.

Thanks again!

lindy,
My son's WISC scores are very similar, although my guy is profoundly dyslexic and has some significant executive functioning deficits to complicate things further. I share your concerns about being able to keep up with the high volume of input and output in HS, especially when the pace and volume quickens.

We have been exploring technology as a tool to help him with the input and output demands. Tools such as Kurzweil will help him read more quickly and fluently on his own (although based on your guy's ACT scores, he does beautifully). Kurzweil has note taking features that will allow him to bypass some of the traditional writing associated with notetaking and writing study guides. Additionally, if his reading rate declines as he tires, the text to voice feature will help him to conserve energy.

Word processing for writing will be a huge help - editing, spelling and output all improve with the computer. There is also a voice to text math program that may help him if he struggles with the written aspect of math called MathTalk http://metroplexvoice.com/. This is something we are exploring for my son. He is strong at math, but writes nothing down. We're concerned that as he advances to more complex problems, he will not be able to be successful if he doesn't record his work.

I agree with Cricket that he would benefit from a 504 that gives him access to appropriate technology, and extra time for in class assignments and tests.

Was there any other testing? How is his overall organization? Ability to see the big picture? Ability to plan, execute tasks and self monitor?

He has done very well so far as evidenced by his strong ACT scores. But, a large busy HS could be more difficult for him. I would hate to have him land in a situation where his cognitive potential is not recognized or nurtured as a result of his slower processing and potential dysgraphia and dyslexia getting in the way.

That is a totally reasonable accommodation and one that I'd seek in a 504 if he starts attending school.


VCI is verbal comprehension index and is made up of the scores from the similarities, vocabulary, and comprehension tests. Information and Word reasoning are optional tests that can substitute for others in the VCI. I'm not sure which ones they can fill in for, though. Dottie would know if she pops in here.

PRI is perceptual reasoning index and is made up of scores from block design, matrix reasoning, and picture concepts. Picture completion is, again, an optional subtest that can substitute somewhere in here.

WMI (working memory) and PSI (processing speed) are essentially supporting skills that enable the child to utilize his cognitive skills (VCI and PRI). A child with much lower supporting skills may have a harder time implementing his ability and a GAI can be used to estimate his cognitive ability when WMI and/or PSI are pulling down the full scale IQ. You can calculate the GAI yourself utilizing the WISC technical report #4. Let me go back and look at your original post and I'll be right back to let you know what # I am coming up with for a GAI. I suspect that his lower PRI might also make that number a less than ideal estimation of his ability, though.

eta: I'm coming up with a GAI of 128 (97th percentile) with those scores.

Big gaps btwn speed and VCI/PRI are not hugely uncommon in the gifted population but your son's seems a bit larger than most I've heard people mention. My two girls have VCI scores in the 98th-99.7th range and PSIs at around average. One of my dds also has an average WMI score and the other has a WMI score on par with her PRI/VCI.

I've never tried to quote before so hope this works!

Thank you so much for the tech suggestions. I'm investigating them right away.

This is the only big psychoed eval we've had. He does yearly Woodcock Johnson tests, and the results are pretty consistent.

His overall organization is very poor. I'm trying to slowly turn it over to him because I know I won't be able to do it forever. As far as his ability to see the big picture--he does tend to focus on the details without regard to the bigger picture--thanks for mentioning, I'll keep an eye on that and try to work on it. Getting to the point where he can plan, execute tasks and self monitor is a big priority here, he is making slow progress but I'd love to hear any suggestions on how best to do it. I know having a planner is a big one. If you have other ideas please share!

Thanks again, and that is interesting that our boy's scores are so similar. My son does have dyslexia/dysgraphia so it sounds like they are dealing with many of the same struggles. I appreciate your time!

Indy

Thanks so much for that Cricket!

I really appreciate you taking the time to explain that and even calculate the GAI for me!

If you happen to think of anything else that might be helpful, please share. I'm really appreciative and value the insight you shared!

Indy

Indy,
I wanted to remind you that although it's true that 99% is 'way different' than 99.9% - particularly when it come to raising and educating a kid, that in no way reflects what the future potential of a child might be. Lots of people with 99% scores 'outcontribute' as adult folks at the 99.9%.

In a way, your 2E 99% kid makes you a great fit with the
99.9%ers here because you child is 99.9 in uniqueness with his very strong strengths and very big challenges.

I hope this doesn't make you feel worse - like more pressure! My thought was to make you feel more welcome - the whole point of this board is to support every parent to support every child -when the common wisdom doesn't apply, we have to take uncommon paths!

It sounds like you are doing a wonderful job, and have learned over the years of homeschooling to be slow and flexible -
Well Done!

Grinity

Thank you Grinity! I appreciate the kind words.

I've noticed in reading through the archives that you're very knowledgeable on these issues. Do you have any observations or recommendations based on what I've shared about my son? I could use any feedback I can get. I'm feeling overwhelmed being teacher, guidance counselor, LD and Gifted teacher, secretary, mom, etc. =) I feel like I need to gather some outside input to help me iron out his academic path. In real life, I can't really talk to anyone about it. Having a 2E kid is a little isolating. =)People I could talk to about the gifted issues don't understand the complications with the LD's, and I wouldn't dream of talking about the gifted test scores with people who have average or LD kids.

Thanks for any thoughts you may have! We are planning 8th-12th right now.