Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy Help a newbie with our upcoming meeting

Hi everyone! My name is Heather and I am a mom of a very bright 6yr old. We are going to meet with the school principal and teacher(we met alone with teacher already) and would love some advice. A little backround on DD. She went to a private school for preschool and they wanted to advance her into K in her second year. We contacted the Public School and they said they would not honor this placement until she had completed 1st grade there. Sadly, we did not have the funds to keep her there that long because of the high tuition because our financial situation had changed. Anyway fastforward to today. She is reading at a late 2nd early 3rd grade level and doing math in a late 1st early 2nd grade level (I know this b/c I was a third grade teacher and have used my materials to help assess where she is). Needless to say she is bored. We wanted to wait until conferences to see what the teacher noticed so we wouldn't come off as pushy. She is aware of how advanced DD is. She even gave her some of the typical first grade assesments for conferences. She did those with ease. She spoke with the principal b/c she wanted to see if she could take the first grade begining of the year assessment and see if grade advancement was an option. She is new to the grade leve(was a pre k teacher for 8 years in the district) and really isn't "experienced with this b/c she has never worked with a child this bright" The principal's answer on both questions was no. When I asked what kind of enrichment she could then get in school her teacher said in a nut shell none. She would in so many words have to follow what the rest would be following. She said our best bet was to continue to work with her at home. I explained that while we love nurturing her love of learning at home that after spending 6 hours at school I would like her to do other things besides come home and hit the books again. She in so many words said that was our best option until 3rd grade when she could be tested for the gifted/enrichment program. I was very sad. DD is bored, her work is getting sloppy, she no longer wants to do homework because it is for "babies". I personally think grade advancement is her best option. I know that in my state(a red one...lucky us) it is up to the district. I have researched and asked around and nobody is sure if they say no just to see if you will go away or if it is a firm no. I know of nobody who has advanced, but not sure it hasn't happened b/c I know it happens in the district nearby. We are planning a meeting now with the principal and the teacher to see what we can do b/c I do not wish to take the teachers answers as the final word. The problem is, I am not a good speaker( I get very nervous and don't get my message across) and my DH is very blunt(he isn't aggressive, but has a tendancy to be a little pushy). I would love to have a plan in writing before we go in so my DH can help lead, but in an appropriate way. I read the buzz words to avoid thread and many other and have some key ideas jotted down. I also think that me being a forme teacher makes me more hesitant to speak up b/c I know what teachers/administrators think of parents who try to get more. That they don't like to be told what they are doing isn't enough even when it is clear it isn't. Anyway, Here is what I have:

We wanted this meeting so we can plan the most effective educational arrangement for DD's level of capability

Revisit the idea of grade advancement as we feel it will allow DD to be challenged by increasing the level and pace of learning without her being seperated from the rest of the class(not that they seem open to this either)

If they say no way look into what they can do to provide individualized lessons or even subject acceleration.

I want to add that we haven't had her tested on our own yet as the teacher feels that will not help. Plus while I know she is very gifted, has a great memory and a real love of learning I am not sure she would even be a genius or an IQ off the charts(and wonder if that would impact any extra enrichment she may be able to get if she didn't test really high). We are having her tested to qualify for a gifted Saturday program through a university and the director feels that is a good stepping stone in seeing if it would be in our best interest to have her go through the full battery of testing. So please any suggestions on wording or ideas would help me so much. I am just so glad I found this website! Thanks in advance for any help.

Hi Heather,

I am sure you will get some helpful responses. We also had to switch out of private school for financial reasons. It's a difficult transition - going from a valued customer to an ???.

I got one child into a gifted charter, but my older son is in a regular public school. It's not great, but he doesn't seem too bothered by it. If I'm completely honest I have to admit that he seems to be developing some nice study skills and this week the gifted teacher said she was going to work with him on his writing. He writes barely at grade level even though he reads really well - finished the Harry Potter books before starting second grade.

I wanted to clarify - is your daughter in first grade or kindergarten? Because if she's in kindergarten then I think your situation is much more problematic for three reasons:

1. She can read reasonably well and the other kids are only learning to read - they probably aren't actually reading yet.

2. She's six already, so she's not even a young kindergartner.

3. The school is giving homework to kindergartners.

I would go ahead and get whatever private testing you can. You don't have to tell the school about it.

(I'm in the process now, so this is just advice I've heard other people give - my first possibly combative meeting is tomorrow, people so far have been good)

First thing, which it sounds like you've done, is to research exactly what the rules are for your district.

Then, I read up on the language to use with teachers, like avoiding "bored" and making sure you say "appropriate". I'm also using phrases/concepts like "learning how to learn" "good study habits" "rising to a challenge instead of avoiding it". They're principles that everyone can agree are desirable to learn at school.

I also try to keep in mind things like making sure I hear what the person needs to tell me and acknowledge it. The classroom teacher needed me to acknowledge what her job involves before I could go and ask her to do more work accommodating my child.

Having said that, full grade acceleration is a pretty big step. Do you have to go in asking for it? Why not just say "We wanted this meeting so we hear your ideas for the best/easiest way to give her appropriate material". And let them think it's their idea.

I would look into testing, and using the Iowa acceleration scale to figure out if it's really a good idea.

Can you say more about this? I don't really get what the teacher is saying - If it is that the district won't do anything anyway, get the testing and see - I've seen many instances where folks just plain start talking a totally different line of reasoning - once the light goes on and they can see what is going on. What it takes to get the light to go on - now that's a totally different topic.


Also about the gifted program in 3rd grade - how many hours, what kinds of testing do they do to qualify kids?

What kind of testing is done for the Saturday program? Can they recommend a tested to do an individualized IQ/Achievement test?

I don't really follow you here

Does a kid who isn't 'off the charts' deserve to be bored in school?
How about a kid who isn't 'a genius' - whatever that is?
What about developing good work ethic? Does a kid who is a poor fit in a particular classroom deserve to 'learn how to learn' ONLY if her IQ scores are 'off the charts?'


One reason to test privately is that you aren't obligated to share the results with the school if your DD doesn't test on that particular day in a way that matches your observation.

Some off the charts kids don't even test gifted due to personality quirks (would rather 'play' with the tester than cooperate, have their own feeling about being identified as gifted and subvert the test, try to second guess the easy questions or just to nervous)

I strongly recommend reading the IOWA Accleration scale manual, which show the actual IQ scores needed to make a single year acceleration a predictable success. Having the manual availible to the school might help them make a rational decision.

Best Wishes,
Grinity

I like Tallulah's approach for a first meeting - it's still all about building relationships - a book 'Getting to Yes' about negotiation might be helpful.
OTOH, when it comes time to actually put your cards on the table, it's important to ask for MORE than you want so that the school can save face a bit by turning down (or moving to the back burner) a few of the items that you care less about. Of couse this is risky.
Grinity

Thanks for your response. It has been difficult. I just wish it didn't cost so much, but hope to make the most of her schooling where she is. My daughter is now in K and the homework is more like a coloring page, but that is what they call it LOL It is sad b/c they wouldn't even let her check chapter books out at first. My dd isn't the type to push when told no so she just came home and told me. She asked if I would send a note or talk to her teacher and when I did they allowed her to check out some chapter books.

The teacher feels that having her tested outside the school will not influence them one way or the other. So not to waste our money.

They use a computer (MAP) testing as a element as well as teacher and parent recomendation into their program in third grade. It is a pull out program twice a week I believe for 40 minutes each session where they work on extra projects.

The saturday program testing is done by a psychologist. Qualifying test scores are defined as scores in the 95th percentile or above on a nationally normed standardized achievement test in the subject area of the Saturday Enrichment Program course for which you are applying.

The director said it isn't as indepth as the other testing.

I did read through the information on the Iowa website. Is the manual what you can buy for $150(I believe that is what it was)? Would you recommend purchasing it and then bringing it with to the meeting or asking the principal if they are familar with it. I guess I am just afraid I'd be stepping on their toes by suggesting it. I'd be more than willing to purchase it and provide it for the district though.

I also hope I didn't offend you by impling a child who doesn't test off the charts isn't entitled to enrichment. I was just more saying that I was afraid the district would use it against us if she didn't. We have already heard the "all kids even out by 3rd grade" speech from them and I just didn't want them to use the testing against us. I guess I didn't think about not showing them the results, but wasn't sure if that would be something they would want us to show them to get her moved forward.

Thanks again for all the info

The Iowa manual won't be helpful to you at all unless you have individual achievement and IQ testing. If the school is willing to do the testing, then the Iowa manual would be useful. But if you believe they won't do the testing, then it's not going to help.

Do you have her MAP testing data? If so, there are lots of links on here with national percentile norms. If she's scoring in the 90th and above for the NEXT grade up, or if she's scoring 90th above in her own grade in both areas, then you have a place to start advocating from.

She is having the MAP testing done on Friday. I asked the teacher if she could share the results when she got them. She said we would get a full written report, she just wasn't sure when. She then said she would share what they were when she got them, but then said "well, let me see what I can share with you early and I will share that". I think she is afraid of the principal IMO, b/c she seemed to be open to more at the conference before speaking to the principal and now is not doing/saying much.


I will see if I can find the 2nd edition. Thanks for the tip!

I was offended, but it was based on a misunderstanding. You really sounded to me like you weren't sure. Believe me, it takes a tremendous amount of courage and determination for any parent to 'cross the line' and ask a school to provide for an unrecognized need. It's much hard to do this when you aren't sure within yourself if your child is 'gifted enough' to make waves. Many of us here struggle with this very issue - even in the face of 'way out there' IQ scores. For those of us socialized to the female role, our minds always seem to present us with 'good reasons' to pipe down. It really is ok to disagree with experts and repeat yourself over and over and over again until they see things your way. I'm delighted that you explained yourself - Thanks so much for not walking away. Don't worry, I still like you and want the best for your family.

Since you've mentioned that you get misunderstood a lot face to face, perhaps it's worthwhile to use this forum as a way to 'metacognate' on your communication skills. Here's what I did for the first 3 years while posting here: Write in stages - make a vent first draft, then reread, grouping similar ideas together, ask myself 'what might another person think I'm saying?' 'what is my topic sentence?' 'Could this hurt someone's feelings?' 'Could I use spacing/paragraphs/color/fonts more to help people read my posts?'

We don't need you to do this - the back and forth takes care of most misunderstandings - but we parents of gifted have SO few people that we can talk plainly with that we get out of the habit of sharing our thoughts at all - and this isn't always just in the area of childraising! The point is that I am so glad you posted, and think your DD is great and want you all to have what is right. For all I know, you are raising my future Daughter in Law!

The MAP tests are great news. All you really have to do is convinse your school to give your DD the exact same MAP that they give the 3rd graders. Then sit back and watch the fun begin! Their jaws are going to drop. Say, "I know, it's unusual, she is an unusual girl....please, for the sake of any child who ever suprised you....give her that MAP test. If she doesn't know anything on it, then it will only take 5 minutes or so. It will go a long way towards setting this Mother's Heart to rest."

Who could resist that?

Then you get some 3rd grade Math workbooks and have her do enough pages that the knows what a 'divided by' sign means (both of them) etc.

Let her know that a MAP test has basic 'Artificial Intelligence' so that while she is taking the test, the test computer is trying to figure out what she knows and doesn't know. Because of this, the longer the test wants to spend with her, the more suprised it is and the more information it is gathering. Let her know that it's important to guess and keep going no matter how long it takes. Interesting test, no?

In the meantime I would read the Iowa Accleration Scale Manual (should be availible for around 30$) just for future reference. I would request an individual IQ from the school, or hire an outside tester if money is ok so you can continue to learn about your DD. But all that pales beside getting the school to give that MAP. I don't know if they can give it this month, or you have to wait until they give it to the 3rd graders. If you have to wait, then keep seeing what you can do inside the classroom such a 'send in your own Math and Spelling worksheets' to substitute for the coloring pages.

Also, it's totally normal for a kid not to be able to advocate for themselves until around age 10. Even the kids that do are ususally ignored. It is sweet if you can have her write a letter in her own handwriting about what she likes and doesn't like about school, and what she wishes school was like, for you to bring to the meeting.

As far as chapter books, your school is normal, what is impressive is that when you made the request, they complied. That is a win. Of course it would be better if they 'got' your family, but flexibility is the next best thing.

Love and More Love,
Grinity