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When DD7 was tested last spring she had a very low Working Memory score that was totally out of whack with the rest of her scoring. it was the WISC IV and she scored very low in the WMI w/ a 34% score. (compared to her 99.5% in PRI). block design 18, similarities 17, digit span 7! Her other highest area was matrix reasoning 17. The psychologist said it could indicate a LD. I see some issues that concern me but I really just don't know. I wouldn't even know what to do next. I can't continue w/that psychologist because we have moved out of state. We are at a new gifted school where DD7 is working 1 year accelerated across the board. She has a PG DYS older brother (9) so I get confused sometimes as to what's "normal" or not.

The issues that concern me:
If doing math I've seen her tell me the answer is 3 but write down a 2. Then i point it out and she does it again! Then i notice on the worksheet that she did it a few times. Like she can't get her thought to go from her head to her pencil. It's strange to witness.

She reads very well BUT spelling is horrific and inconsistent. She can spell a word wrong in 3 different ways on the same page and each will be SO off the chart wrong - even if it's a word that appears printed multiple times on the same page. I can usually get where she is coming from phonetically and understand that English can be hard from that aspect BUT these are words she has read over and over.

When practicing for spelling test: She can read the word, we can look at the word and talk about the sounds, sound it out, point out the tricky bits then...if asked to write the word out she can come up with something mind-bogglingly wrong. What I find so surprising there is that I'd expect it to stick for a few minutes at least but it's gone immediately.

So, I keep trying to learn about working memory probs. Does any of this sound indicative of a problem? Should I talk to the school? She's got straight A's except her C average in spelling so far.

This is the same kid that knows every lyric to every song she likes and remembers every tune she hears so maybe it's just a lack of interest?

THanks for reading, any input is appreciated!!

Low working memory relative to other index scores on the WISC can be a flag for a LD. Working memory is the ability to hold information in short term memory, manipulate it and then create output. Poor working memory often impacts writing output since the writer must organize the thoughts, create the sentence and actually put the words down on paper using proper writing conventions, spelling etc. It can also make math computation difficult - for example word problems, multi-step processes such as long division etc. In the higher grades it can sometimes hinder reading comprehension - not because of poor decoding skills or language process skills - but because the reader may "forget" complex information and find it difficult to both "read" and employ active reading strategies to aid comprehension and memory.

That said, it seems like maybe something more is going on. When you had her tested, did the evaluator administer any achievement tests to check on reading levels? How about tests to measure aspects of reading such as phonemic awareness, naming skills (CTOPP, RAN/RAS would be examples).

It sounds like there may be some sort of orthographic processing/ reading issue going on that could be interfering with aspects of written language.

The other issue that relatively low working memory could signal would be attention & concentration difficulties. This could be adhd-inattentive type (not hyperactive). Kids with adHD in attentive are often very calm, well behaved. They often appear that they are very focused and can spend long lengths of time on an activity. These "long lengths" are often an outcome of inattention and inefficiencies, rather than a concentrated effort.

My 16 year old read at age 4 and soared through elementary school. In MS things started becoming very difficult as the complexity and amount of work increased and the amount of structure decreased. Finally in 9th grade we had her tested and found that she has some significant concentration issues and working memory deficits. Her reading fluency was also surprisingly low for a child that loved to read at one time. Basically, she had been able to compensate for all those years, but things became too complex in HS to keep it together without extra help.

She now is tutored once a week to help her prioritize her work and to learn study strategies to overcome her WM deficits. She also gets extra time on tests and copies of class notes since she cannot listen and take notes at the same time.

We were able to put this action in place because we had the testing and recommendations from a neuropsychologist to help us. I think it would be valuable to have your daughter re-tested if possible or to at least look closely at the evaluation from the spring to determine if there were any issues that may have been overlooked.

Thanks for the reply. I forgot to mention...

She also had me concerned when I noticed her whispering to herself frequently. When i questioned her it turned out she was repeating 3 things that she was trying to remember. I asked how long she'd been doing it and she said for a few weeks and started to cry because she said she would forget them forever she didn't keep saying them. I knew she was serious because he had made a few comments over the weeks about trying to remember something - it took a while before i connected the comments with the whispering. Well, a big OCD flag went up for me and I told her she didn't have to do that. Together we wrote the 3 things on a post-it note and put it in her jewelry box so she can rest assured and not have the extra burden of trying to remember like that. Poor kid. That seemed to helpSo - i was really thinking OCD but then I think it may just be that her hard drive is full. Is it possible that some brains just have less MB and get over loaded more easily? Now she will often run up to me and say "you have to remember this" and she'll tell me the Important Thing which may be a melody she just came up with, a tv show she wants to watch, a toy she saw on a commercial, etc.

As far as OCD tendencies...she has a few other flags but it's not getting in her way. From what I said does it seem more OCD or Low Working Memory?

SHe had WISC IV and WJ-III. I will check the achievement testing but I recall she was on or above grade level for reading. Her WJ-III was pretty good. I will find it when i get back from errands. Also, the psych. did sections of other tests that showed the same kind of results. He referred to this in his write up so I will check that too.

The whispering, or sub vocalizing is actually a good strategy to help her "remember". My daughter does this too and actually gets to take her tests in the hall so that she doesn't bother anyone. I don't think this is OCD at all - but a healthy, mature response to a problem. Post-its are another useful strategy - good idea showing her how they help.

I agree - it may be that her hard drive is full. Keep in mind that low working memory is very different than low cognition. If her VCI and PRI are strong, these are the two scores that are most indicative of "thinking ability". Working memory though, can cause problems with efficiency and work output. So, you will want to be sure she learns the strategies to help free up hard drive space and reduce anxiety and frustration.

this is so interesting to me. I have not heard about Working Memory but it explains some of my problems which aren't exactly dyslexic but sort of fall into that category. I reverse numbers and letters and can look at words I have written and not be sure if they are right or wrong but yet be a high retention reader and a fast reader - mine is all about the act of writing. But then I can also say go right when giving directions and actually point left and be unsure which way I meant - usually the hand gesture is correct. Is this because my processor is full? I love that description, I will go check it out

My DS has fine motor issues and WPPSSI picked it up in terms of Processing Speed - and the psych recommended OT, that eval said he seems to have some component of "translation error" but not sure what it might be. He looks at steps made out of blocks and reproduced it correctly except for the last one, he knew it was wrong but couldn't figure out why. The OT suggested a vision optometrist but all the comments about what that would entail made me want to wait on that. But now I wonder if its this kind of processing issue? Would the psychologist who tested him flagged that or do you need a different kind of specialist?

Sorry JoAnna, I am asking more questions than I am helping answer!!

DeHe

"How about tests to measure aspects of reading such as phonemic awareness, naming skills (CTOPP, RAN/RAS would be examples). "

i don't know anything about these. Would i ask at the school? speak to her teacher? guidance?

As far as reading, her WJ-III from april (age 6.9) :
broad reading = 99.5 (ge 3.7)
broad written = >99.9 (ge 4.2)
basic reading = 99 (ge 3.5)
written expression = >99.9 (ge 4.2)

reading fluency = 99.8 (ge 5.2)
spelling = 99 (ge 3.3)
writing fluency = 99.8 (ge 4.9)
passage comprehension = 95 (ge 3)

i asked DD if she is still whispering and she said she thinks it over and over in her head and sometimes can't get rid of it. She says right now "Fred Movie, tonight at 8. Fred Movie, tonight at 8. Fred Movie, tonight at 8." is stuck in her head (from the other day when she wanted to remember it was on even though we set the DVR for her. She said she still has one of the things that was on the post-it note in her head (that was from at least 5 weeks ago) She is upset that she can't get it all to go away. I asked if it going over and over in her head when she is trying to listen to lessons at school and she said no. I hope it's just a little nuisance thing, like getting a song stuck in your head not an actual problem. We have a history of OCD.

"So, you will want to be sure she learns the strategies to help free up hard drive space and reduce anxiety and frustration."

I don't even know where to start!! but... that's why i am here. maybe the teacher next?
THanks again

This is a totally non-expert comment here, but reading through the descriptions of how your dd words, it sounds like with PRI and processing in general pretty darn high, she is probably 5 steps down the road in her head while her hands and other 'output' facilities such as working memory are lagging behind or have been 'wiped' clean for new work before she has a chance to write down answers or respond to questions...
In short, asynchronous development (classic gt stuff, I think)
I wonder how much of it will line up better as she gets older, and with more practice, AND with feeling more comfortable in her new school and with new/real academic challenges. I know I can get completely brain-addled when I am stressed and it sounds like she is a bit stressed, so I guess I would say:
Work on de-stressing, emphasizing that school work is not about perfection but trying and learning. Emphasize that everyone has strong areas and weak areas and our best focus is to highlight strengths while working on weaknesses (not beating ourselves up for them ... and see if that gets her to back up just a bit, just enough to line up all her big and fast thinking with her (currently) slower output abilities. It all sounds fairly normal in some ways.

Hang in there! I know sutff like this can get pretty frustrating, we have similar issues here with ds, big thoughts, high creativity, but if something doesn't float his boat, it's like pulling teeth to get him to move on it. Ug!!
Otoh, as he gets older, some of this is getting smoother, so light at the end of the tunnel? I hope

JoAnna -
If the scores you are reporting are percentile ranks, she scored very high on the Woodcock Johnson tests across the board. WJ is not my favorite test because the test items are VERY brief and don't really replicate the skill as it is required in life and in the classroom. For instance, the reading tests are often only a line or two of text. This can be appropriate for a 1st grader, but not a 5th grader. It's just important to understand what the tests are measuring and the limits to the info they provide.

The tests I was thinking of are more about the underpinnings of reading - more diagnostic by measuring the subskills needed for reading, Here is one source that helps explain some of the tests. http://www.concordspedpac.org/Whichtest.htm

I am not suggesting your daughter has a reading disability - but some of the school difficulties you mention would be shared by students with dyslexia.

Also - if there is a family history of OCD, you are wise to keep an eye on it.

As far as teaching her the strategies for compensating for lower WM - here are two books that have great tips. She is still a bit young, but some of the strategies may be appropriate:
"No Mind Left Behind"
"Late, Lost and Unprepared".

I think you need to keep an eye on things - especially in the attention realm. But as chris says, de-stressing, learning to take academic risks, focusing on the learning process is what I'd do right now. She has amazing strengths and should feel confident about her ability as a student and a kid. Yes, it makes sense to learn strategies to help overcome weaker areas so that they don't pull her down. But many of the strategies are the ones that adults use all the time: Making lists, reviewing action plans, etc.

DeHe -
low processing can often look like low WM and cause some of the same problems - just for slightly different reasons. My son has very low processing speed - (borderline, yet his VCI and PRI are superior - talk about asynchronous development. Unfortunatly, it has gotten worse as he has gotten older,,,,)_

OT could help - on the WISC the PSI is a pen to paper test that requires visual discrimination and visual motor skills. OT addresses both of these. In fact, I wonder if the reason my son's PSI has dropped as he has aged is because he does not have OT anymore.

But, even if the visual processing improves, auditory processing might still remain slow. So, in conversations and in instructional situations, the student with low processing may still be on point one or two of the discussion while the teacher is on point 5.

As far as the block design - as the kids get older there are time bonuses for completing the designs quickly. For kids with poor visual motor skills, this can reduce their score. What you describe - not understanding how to fix a design although he recognized it was not correct is more of a limit of his visual spatial ability. This is precisely what Block design is measuring. Some aspects of VT might help with this - but it very might be just an indication of his cognitive strengths and weaknesses.

Wow, mich, lightbulb!!! I use the term asynchronous all the time about DS and other kids, but don't pay enough attention to it within him! I was so thrown by his not being able to do it because of what he does, he usually does so well! I guess my own LD issues might make me overreact to his challenges. But I guess we might not have any answer for awhile as to whether these things are truly delays or just asynchronous delays. At the very least though I do have to see that he does things that he doesn't like as much or just isn't doing, like puzzles and mazes. On the upside, he is making progress with the OT, after 2 sessions (plus going back to preschool) he is willing now to draw and is starting to see it as a form of expressions which considering the I can't do it, I won't do it we were hearing, it's a huge step forward.

It's so interesting how speed factors in, the tortise never wins in the testing world I guess!!