Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Age or Ability Specific Forums Middle School Second thoughts on science placement...

I would appreciate any input into DD's newest dilemma. She qualified for a tough science track last year, but at the advice of a guidance counselor she decided against it. His point was that the extra science isn't really needed for college and she would end up with an extra AP class as the only benefit. He also said many kids pick the track only to end up with B's instead of A's in the honors track bringing their GPAs down.

DD loves science and after a great science camp is now rethinking this decision. I told her that the honors classes can be just as enjoyable, but her ambitious nature might be kicking in. Her math placement gives her a good challenge so why not enjoy the easier science? Or should we contact the school and switch it?

Jen

I am responding from my own experience as a lover of science. I took everything my school offered and it still wasn't enough. If she really loves science, she should go for the harder track for herself. My school only offered AP Calculus and AP English, but when I went to college most of my friends had also taken AP Biology and Physics (and Chemistry?) and I felt like I had missed out. All we had in my school was honors classes.

As for the GPA, aren't AP classes weighted more?

Nan

I agree with Nan. If she loves science and is willing to put in the hard work, I would let her interests soar by switching into that class. It seems to me that the guidance counselor gave her faulty advice. There could be another huge benefit: she could love what she learns in that class!

Speaking for myself, I know it's easy to get into mom-worry about grades, but colleges look at the difficulty of course loads. I will have to hold myself back not to lead my children into doing what I did, which was worry more about my transcript/resume than focus on what truly interested and challenged me.

Maybe she could take the higher science track AND get A's. They are not mutually exclusive, especially in a gifted kid who's highly motivated.

The guidance counselor is right that colleges don't "require" the extra science. But on college applications (including, I believe, the Common Application), the guidance dept. has to rank how rigorous the student's classes were compared to other students ("most rigorous", "rigorous" - something like that). The most selective colleges like to see the highest level of difficulty possible, even if the grade suffers a little. And maybe it wouldn't.

I would go for the harder track if she likes science.

FWIW, at our school, honors classes are weighted 0.5 points, and APs are weighted 1 point. You might want to look into that possibility.

Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear. The guidance counselor's advice not to do something that she doesn't "need" that would just lower her GPA reeks of "doing school" to me. Somehow, tons of people have got it in their head that the point of going to school is getting good grades (regardless of whether, how much, or what type of learning takes place!) The point of school should be to learn -- GPAs be somewhat damned.(I wonder what the counselor would say the benefit of science camp was?)

If the one reason your dd wasn't going to take the class is concerns over GPA, then I would encourage her to take the science class. If she gets a B, it's not the end of the world. (In fact, having to work for your grade is not a bad thing for a kid to experience...).

If you're concerned about work/life balance, then the answer is more complicated. How much more work would the science class be vs. the Honors class? How much more enjoyable? (Hard to answer, I know). Can she try it one year and then switch back if it's not working out? (I think it's probably better to opt in now, and then have the ability to opt out later, than to miss out on the ability to opt in at all, if that's the situation).

The harder science track combines the next two years (rest of middle school) curriculum into one year. After that the kids basically start the honors curriculum a year ahead of the other honors kids. So in the end, instead of getting the typical AP classes, they get one additional one (can't remember which one it is).

The counselor's point was that the additional AP class is not required to get into the best colleges and many kids end up burnt out and lower GPA as a result of AP heavy schedule. Also, he pointed out that DD had been accelerated mid-year in math and thought it would be best to invest more study time into math. I wasn't completely against this advice since he was the one to make our math skip possible. He recognizes DD's gifted abilities, but at the same time he was a HS counselor and saw the long term ramifications of pushing science unnecessarily. As a parent I worry about busy work and projects at this age, others who I know took the 2 year class in 1 year, commented how much work the kids had at home.

Dottie: DD11 is going into 7th with 8th grade LA and 9th grade math placement.

Frustrating that you have to make a decision now that will affect things years down the road. It seems to me like she could always just NOT take the extra AP class later on if she chooses. I would imagine this class has less "busy" work than the two-year-long course, but the amount of work (in combination with everything else, whether busy or not) might be draining. Maybe this will help your desicion: it seems like neither choice is perfect, but both choices are good enough.

I would look at the teachers, to the extent able. Does the doubled up honors program have an exceptional teacher? Does the regular track have great teachers?

I wonder how much of the advice is based on the fact your DD is already accelerated and therefore there are concerns about her ability to do the work.

Cat

Clay: I feel like the decision we make now will have an impact on her HS classes. Our school is big on "tracks" that each student follows in each subject. Once you start on that road it is hard to jump off without repeating a class along the way. I want DD to feel successful since she is young and accelerated, not like she is overwhelmed. But she is ambitious and wants to do it, so I try to be supportive. She was the one that advocated for a harder math class without telling me about it.


Catalana: I am not sure about the teachers, but historically the accelerated tracks are taught by best and enthusiastic teachers. The same would be true to the honors classes. They might even have the same teacher.

As far as her ability to do the work, I don't think that was the issue. She pulled straight A's in math after a mid-year skip without missing a beat. She is not my mathy kid and on the finals (which included materials she missed) she got one of the best scores in the class. Because we got a former HS counselor, I think he is able to see what happens to "some" of the accelerated kids and he wanted us to be aware of it. Why have a GPA suffer when it's due to "unnecessary" acceleration? He gave us the choice in the end and DD was agreeable to our decision. Now that she has had the summer off and went to a science camp, maybe it's her enthusiasm for science that's driving this discussion?

I decided not to go the AP route, and I'm glad I did. I got lazy my senior year (social butterfly), and I wouldn't have graduated with honors. I got into some colleges that some of my friends who went the AP route did not (due to the higher GPA combined with SAT/ACT scores). But I also only went to school for half a day that year. I imagine if I went a full day, I would at least like SOME challenge (especially when it might have helped me with my study habits, or lack there of)...

Just a thought from the other side of the coin.