Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Identification, Testing & Assessment Woodcock Johnson math achievement questions

Perhaps this is premature to ask, but DS7 just had the Woodcock Johnson achievement test--or enough of it to calculate the broad math score. The tester was scoring as she went along in grade equivalents. For computation, he was grade 3.8, for applied math, grade 5, and for math fluency, 2.5. We already know from his WISC-IV that he has low processing speed and the tester for the Woodcock Johnson noted that his math fluency score was affected by his urge to correct his wrong answers by scribbling them completely out and drawing arrows to the correct ones. I have a few questions about this. 1. Shall I bother submitting this score to DYS? The tester hasn't calculated the broad math score but I'm sure it's not 99.9th percentile with that fluency score. 2. Does anyone know if there's a way of differentiating slow processing speed from pathological perfectionism? 3. How in the world do I educate my son? I was hoping the DYS would help me with this, but I'm not sure he'll get in with this kind of result. We applied a few months ago and they wanted more information but this is again straddling the fence. We have a tutor but she skips all over the place trying to figure out what he does and doesn't know and what level to teach him at. Help!

I have a child with a processing speed that, while fairly average, is significantly lower than his other scores. This functions as a "bottleneck" (a term that I think Grinity coined, and I love it!): it's not an LD, but it can really get in his way. He's got the brain of a 14yo, but he works that brain at the speed of a 9yo. It's hard.

My DS9's issues are not perfectionism. I would suggest looking at where your 7yo is slow. Watch him work. Does he produce quickly but second-guess himself? Or does he seem to dawdle while getting to the answer. Our DS9 is the latter. (Our DS6 is a perfectionist, so the differences are very clear to me.)

I think perfectionism is the easier sort of slow processing speed to deal with, though I'll admit that this could be because I am a recovering perfectionist myself, so I have more experience with it. Dealing with perfectionism is pretty straightforward: get kids to see that "good enough" is sometimes good enough.

OTOH, Slow-but-deep kids are hard for people to understand. We tend to associate smart with fast, even though they are different things. Slow-but-deep just looks like time-wasting or messing around, and it tends to make authority figures like teachers and parents angry.

What options do you have for schooling? What are you doing now and how is that working? What other options would you consider?

There are ways to handle a slow processing speed (specifically the kind that's not perfectionism-related), but IMHO, this issue can limit the effectiveness of solutions like grade acceleration. Our DS9 just doesn't seem like he could keep up with the older kids, but he craves serious challenge and acts out if he's not thinking hard enough. There are apparently exercises that kids can do to work on speed. I keep meaning to ask our tester about these and work on them starting in the fall. I haven't gotten around to it yet--busy summer!

Homeschooling has worked well for us, FWIW. I don't think it's the only way, but it is a way. Basically, giving him a few hard problems and allowing him the time to chew on them for a while seems to be the best strategy. That could work in any educational situation, provided the school is willing to use it. The worst thing to do for our DS9 is to give him lots and lots of easy problems. It takes him *forever* to do that sort of assignment. Timed tests throw him off and hurt his performance. He actually works more slowly if he's conscious of being timed. That seems to be anxiety-related.

I'm happy to talk more if it helps you. I feel like I'm just rambling...

Thanks so much, Dottie! He turned 7 May 27th so I guess he's 7.2. I guess that would make his scores somewhere in between? It sounds like he won't qualify for DYS, too bad. The thing is, math isn't really his strongest subject--he was never interested in it until last year, but they don't have achievement testing for science, general knowledge, or Harry Potter . . .

Kriston, many thanks to you, too! He seems to dawdle, guess (he has executive function/impulse issues as well), and second guess himself, so he's probably a combination of the two scenarios you described. He has been in public school and the most they will do for him is give him extra worksheets on top of his other work, so of course he doesn't have time to do them. I got him a tutor but she kind of tries a bit of this and a bit of that. She was excited that he could do long division but is hampered by the fact that he does multiplication by skip counting. The difficult problems to chew on for a while does sound like a good suggestion and I'll mention that.

I don't think I could handle homeschooling him. I'd go crazy. Also, (despite the 99.9th percentile verbal reasoning on the WISC IV) he's grade level in reading and social skills and has great friends at school. Plus some bullies, but overall I think school is a good thing for him. And me. But I hate to just resign myself and him to letting him not learn there for significant periods of time. We can't, at the moment, afford private school. If you have any more suggestions for tutoring, please let me know. I wish there were a curriculum for kids like this.

By the way, Kriston, his processing speed was 50th percentile on the WISC-IV, so his bottleneck is even tighter than your son's. I can't imagine how frustrating it must be for him, though I do know how frustrating it is to watch him struggle.

No pressure on the homeschooling. I will say that it's easier than I thought it would be, and I always recommend that people not reject potential school solutions--*any* solutions!--without learning about them. So if you want honest, no-pressure pros and cons, I'd be happy to discuss it with you. Or not. Your call.

More work isn't a great solution, of course. Better work, more appropriate work, yes. More of the same, no. How responsive is the school to your advocacy?

Thanks Dottie for the scores! How does the new scoring differ?

Kriston, the whole idea of keeping DS at home makes me ill, partly because he has a very tough temperament and I have a two-year-old daughter, too. Though I suppose she'll be going to nursery school soon. Maybe if he has a hard time this year, too . . . I might consider partial homeschooling to maintain the social aspects of school.

I had a meeting with the school after DS's neuropsych assessment last year. They were much more interested in accommodating his weaknesses (executive function, attentional issues) than in addressing his boredom. They did agree to the extra math worksheets, but that was it. It is honestly hard to do more, since he only reads at grade level or slightly above, so he would require individual instruction, which nobody has the time for. Shoot, they just laid off a couple teachers and the school librarian. How can they spend extra resources on DS?

How do you make homeschooling work?

I have the current software and could run numbers (would need age at testing + actual raw scores), but you should be able to get the scores from the tester, whose job it is -- those grade-equivalent-estimates that you can get as you go are really only very vague estimates of "above, below, way above," etc.

The deal with the normative-update software is that it is able to have different standard deviations above and below the mean, which is particularly relevant when you're testing kids at ages when most of the kids in the norming sample don't have much skill development at all (so the normal curve is skewed). That has tended to pull down some of the ridiculously high scores, and it's had some very odd results in terms of composites -- I've had to put some very long explanations in reports about why a composite is actually *lower* than the three above-average scores that went into it.

I've seen gifted-perfectionistic kids do similar things on fluency tests -- I sort of "cheer them on" and remind them to just slash fast through the one they don't want and keep going (since I'm not trying to measure their ability to remain on task without reminders, this is legal). It's also useful information, that a kid either can't stay on task, or is so pulled by the perfectionism thing that they can't tolerate the mistake.

If I were writing the report with clear evidence of a kid having perfectionisted on the fluency test, I think I would report both the "Broad Math" and the "Brief Math" composites (brief doesn't include fluency), and I would discuss the specifics of the performance and why I felt that this called the validity of the fluency score into question. I'm sure your tester could do that, too.

Thanks Aimee! I read your post and spoke to the tester. I asked her to do a written report along these lines.

Sounds like he'll be a couple of points below what DYS requires (very frustrating!), but at least I have this forum! Thanks so very much!

Hi JSMD,

I'll chime in and quickly introduce myself because I started homeschooling DS6 in January and have somehow figured out how to make it work with a very active 2 year old in tow. It does take a lot of time and coordination, but it's much easier than people think when you have a reader and independent/quick learner as your student. We schedule a lot of our labs and heavy 1-1 work when DS2 is napping, and the rest of the time it's pretty easy to give 5-10 minutes of instruction, then let him work on his own for 20 minutes while I'm with the little one. That's what they would have to do in a classroom full of students, anyhow.

We also do a lot of activities outside the house. When DS2 is having his playdates or music class, DS1 does some "homework" on the side. When DS1 is in a co-op or workshop, that's my 1-1 time with DS2. We compact time by listening to CDs in the car (like story of the world or Jim Weiss storytelling). Now that DS2 is two, he's also starting to take part in some of the more fun projects, like art and science.

It's not for everyone, but it is possible if you find that you're interested in pursuing it. If you'd like to talk more about it, please feel free to PM me.

For what it's worth, I had the same frustrations with which way to turn just a few months ago. Know that when you find the right answer, you'll know it in your heart. I wish you lots and lots of good thoughts in finding your family's solution!

My DS9 was very frustrated in school being too easy. His teacher paced math page was changed to selfpaced which allowed him time to do an Mindware.com math book. He loved this and the teacher saw him getting the everyday worksheet done well.

There is a book called "Teaching Gifted kids in the Regular Classroom". When I first read the book I was overwhelmed. But if you take one idea that is easy for the teacher then it can help the child.

What would be even better is if a child had a front and back page to do that was much of the same. Then only do the front to give more time for fun/challenging Math. If the child has mastery with half the work and does well on the test everyone wins. I corrected my child's extra work book to help the teacher. I showed it to the gifted teacher so she could acknowledge his work and made a few comments.