Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Learning Environments It's not optimal, but is it ENOUGH?

This is the question that DH and I keep throwing around. He agrees that DS is not at all challenged at school, and we're waiting to hear what their plan is for next year (the school declined our suggestions).

If DS is not learning any significant academics at school (which DH agrees he's not), but he does have a friend or two, and has PE and Art, etc..., and we let him do CTY classes over the summer when it's not too much with homework/sports/activities, is it enough? How do you know?

Is it detrimental for the long-term if DS has 10-30 minutes per day of homework that is virtually all busy-work? And how do you know at what point the curriculum will become enough of a challenge that at least he has to really think regularly at school, and put real work in?

One of the school's comments was that the next grade's curriculum will be more challenging than the last. I find it difficult to believe that it will be significantly more challenging since it's the same kids as the previous year, and they're not being split into ability-based groups. But maybe it's like I've seen with sports -- the same kids come back the next year after not playing much basketball and they're significantly better -- they've grown more coordinated, and have a better understanding of the game. Does the same thing happen with academics?

If anyone has any comments or suggestions, I'd love to hear them. I am disappointed that the school has declined our suggestions and we are trying to figure out whether it makes sense to stick it out and make do, or whether we just have to bite the bullet financially and homeschool.

Any thoughts?

Mama,

I think that many (most?) of us in this forum ask ourselves those same questions -- or try to figure out how to avoid those questions.

I remember when I was a kid, the teachers would always say "just wait until next year" -- but things NEVER got hard.

How old is ds?

I think the answer to whether something is "good enough" might differ based on how possible it would be to have something "better". I'm very pro homeschooling GT kids, BUT not at the expense of that choice hovering over his head, if you know what I mean.

What does enough mean to you?
I haven't really parsed this out, but off the top of my head, "enough" (as opposed to optimal) might mean
-- feels happier more often than not (or at least, feels whatever his baseline is more often than not -- as in, school doesn't typically bring him down)
-- still feels a passion for learning in some form or another, even if he doesn't necessarily get it from school most of the time
-- is healthy (or whatever his baseline is) more often than not
-- feels reasonably happy/comfortable being himself (what "reasonably" means is somewhat age dependent...)
-- is challenged in some aspect of his life. I think this is crucial for the full development of a gifted kid. Of course, this is very personal, and other people might prioritize things differently, but for me learning diligence was one of the thing that took the longest. And without diligence (or some similar attribute) a person can't go to the edge of their giftedness and PUSH and meet whatever their extraordinary potential might be. Which is not to say that your kid should feel pushed -- not at all -- but that he have some experience with tenacity, so that later on, when he wants something hard, he knows how to push himself, and he feels comfortable doing so.

I wouldn't think the 10-30 minutes of busywork a day is detrimental -- certainly not any more so than all the other stuff he has to put up with. That's just something you gotta do and not think much about. Is there some reason why you think it might be detrimental? (Now 3 hours of busywork might turn soul crushing, but 30 minutes? Eh... half the time, the homework might be slightly amusing, even if unnecessary).

I don't know that the curriculum will ever be a challenge on a regular basis without some sort of differenciation. However, hopefully, he will encounter teachers here and there that ask more of their kids, and he'll take that opportunity and know that's a teacher worth impressing, and projects worth sinking his teeth into, and he'll take advantage of that.

HTH...

Great list Clay. We are at the starting point with our concerns but I've pondered the "is it enough" question numerous times. The biggest concern for me is the not learning to learn. If the student is always doing busy work and is never given a challenge they will sooner or later hit a wall and not know how to learn. Usually it is later when they are in middle school or most likely high school and this is a definite cause for concern. Does this mean that you rely solely on the school to teach them this essential skill? I don't think so ... supplementing at home goes a long way. If you find that your DS meets the criteria on Clay's list and seems for the most part happy than it really comes down to giving him opportunities to develop his skill of learning. Summertime is a great time to do so with specialized summer camps and projects at home.

Just some quick thoughts.

I think "enough" is different for every kid. First and foremost, is kid happy most of the time? If no, you have a problem. If yes, then you have to decide about the academics being "enough."

Here's where the crystal ball comes in. Some kids would do just fine w/ enough. The man who wrote Art of Problem Solving materials went to an avg highschool w/ about 30min of busywork homework each night. He said he didn't learn much. He said it was the best thing for him b/c it gave him FREE TIMe to pursue things he wanted to pursue. Now that's at the highschool level and quite different from elementary.

My point being some kids will be just fine. You challenge them at home since he won't have a lot of homework, on summers and weekends. Follow his passions.

Other kids will wither away as mine did. His whole personality changed. Plus, he was having 2hrs of homework each evening and we had NO time for afterschooling his interests. And he was in such a foul mood from school, there was no point.

Do I think it will get more challenging? Probably not. I think if you're dealing with an academically motivated child, a bright child, perhaps an MG kid in a good school - then yes. Once everyone learns to read and gets beyond simple adding/sub/multi/div then things will get more interesting. If you're dealing w/ an HG+ kid, probably not. If you're already 2-3+ years advanced (even if not in material but in acquisition of new info, making connections), then another year will not make a difference. That was my son's issue. He had things he needed to be learn, to be exposed to .... but they entire school year could have been compressed into about 4-5months.

And you mention if it's like sports.....the other kids might have spurts and have better understanding....BUT, your son will also have a spurt so you see, the distance is not closing and in fact might be getting wider.

You really have to look at your DS's personality. It might be enough for him. My Dh said "but in high school he'll have AP classes." the only problem was that DS was in 2nd grade.....that's a long time to wait to be challenged. BY then, your brain is mush, you don't see school as a place to learn, you're hanging out w/ the druggies at recess....

I think b/c most adults want the easy way out and don't want to be challenge (we have many items competing for our attention) that they can't imagine that kids thrive on challenge. People think it's great to be smart and just be able to coast. And for some, that is certainly true....gifted underachievers. But for many, lack of challenge is detrimental.

The only thing I can think of is now that I am grown up I don't look back at my schooling and think "that was awful, but at least I had a couple of friends." I had friends I liked better NOT in school, so I don't think school is a necessary component.

Love the suggestions and this is an ongoing discussion at our house as well - we have homeschooled 2 years with 2 attempts at public schooling...I agree with everyone's posts - our biggest issue was - was he happy and - and was he challenged enough. We were worried that things were so easy for him because they did zero differentiation and we were worried that when things finally would get challenging, he wouldn't know how to handle it. We also saw a very unhappy little boy who complained about sitting around all day "learning nothing new".

My DYS DS did 1st thru 3rd in a school that was not challenging enough. They kept promising more challenge each year. I think the school, including the gifted teacher will never understand his needs. I felt like school was hurting his learning attitude, self esteem and home attitude. It is good he made 2 best friends locally who are a good match for him, while going to this school. It had to get really bad at school for me to make the big change to another school 30 mins from home. He will appreciated the gifted school more because of his bad experience.

I would suggest looking into other options. Knowing what your other options can help your decision.

I think a underchallenging school can be enough if the child does enough activies outside of school that are challenging. My son didn't want to do much with extra activities because he wants to use his free time for sports and doesn't like to get over scheduled.

Some school will accept part time homeschooling, course subtitution, or accelloration which can balance a child day. Our school thought he should do more work above the normal load to meet his needs and this caused resentment.

We are in the same boat and I ask myself the same question all the time. My feeling it that it is not enough but it is the best that I can do. The one gripe I have with CTY (with the math) is that it is not enough practice. I just don't have the time to create worksheets for practice and w/regular busy work from school there is not a lot of time to even do those practice sheets. I figure it is better than nothing and whatever sticks sticks and what doesn't doesn't. Of course a true gifted school would be great but not an option. We did do one grade skip but still the schools are just soooooo slow.

You could supplement with something else. My DS9 has done a several Mindware.com books.

That is a great site onthegomom! I never thought having a kid would make me feel so dumb. I looked at those history card games geez I dk anything. Recently he said to me just because I wasn't smart doesn't mean I am not a good mom.

I am def going to order some stuff. What has your DS liked the most?

This is a really hard question, like everyone else has said it depends on the child. My DS7 (then 5) was in a school that was more than willing to do anything they could for him. He was radically accelerated 4 grade levels in the hopes that he would find some challenge. In spite of our best efforts, it just didn't work. He had challenges all right, social ones... 4th graders are a mean lot!

We finally decided that homeschooling was the best answer. I started homeschooling in the hopes that at some point he could return to school. The problem there is that he accelerated himself to where he is now 7+ years ahead of where he should be so it made finding a "fit" that much harder. The other issue is that he has quickly come to a point where I don't feel I can adequately teach him. He recently started a chemistry class on-line and I admit it, I'm lost!

In a strange twist, we did manage to find a program that he will start this fall as a part time student. It is a prep school that is attached to the local university and the principal seems sure that she can make it work. He will have access to college courses when he needs them. I hope so because i'm not sure what to do next if it doesn't.

In our case, the situation you described wouldn't have worked. My DS is WAY too demanding. But he is extreme. For others, afterschooling works really well. Maybe you could do afterschooling in a project based format. Like a science fair project complete with all the testing and research? Choose a subject that he is passionate about and really dig in.

The truth is that even in the land of gifted, they're all different and the only thing that w all seem to agree on i that following your "mommy gut" seems to work best.

In any conversation about "is it enough?" I always like to bring up Carolyn K's wonderful article about finding the least-worst school fit: http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/least-worst.htm

Before we make *any* decision about school stuff--and we revisit our choices at least briefly every year--I go back and re-read that article. It reminds me that doing nothing is a choice, and it is not necessarily the best choice. It reminds me that there's no point on getting hung up on perfect; stay focused on what's really available. It also reminds me to look at all our possible options instead of limiting ourselves prematurely.

So I guess instead of asking "is it enough?" I'd ask "Is there something that's potentially better available?"

If you went with some other educational option, would your child have to lose those friendships at the school, or could you maintain those and build new ones at a different public school, a private school, or in a homeschool group?

Can you get creative and do partial homeschooling/dual enrollment and get the best of both worlds?

Are there other solutions around that might make something that seems hard easier? Research is your friend.

I guess what I'm saying is to start with everything that you could do, then use pros and cons and workarounds to decide which of those possibilities is the least-worst option. It's a bigger question, but ultimately it is a more useful and productive question for me than "Is what we're doing enough?"

HTH!

Hard to find the time too. He is tired when he comes home. I'm hoping hoping 3rd grade will be better. He at least learned cursive in 2nd but sad to say that was it. And it is sad thing when a straight A+ report card is not impressive. Of course I told him he did great. Inside I think he could have sat home all year and got the same grades. What a sad thing.

Thanks for all the replies. Right now, we're hoping the current school gives us something to work with. We'll find out later this summer.

Kriston, I am going to go read that article. Thanks for posting the link.

I think that I'm stil trying to understand what the "least-worst" option is. The kids want to stay in their school AND learn. They don't want to homeschool. They want to believe that the school can provide appropriate learning opportunities. I want to believe that, too, but the last 3 years has shown me otherwise. I'm hopeful that the school will really come through.

If they don't, I'm still left wondering whether it's better to keep the kids at the school like they want and challenge them in the off-times (like summer), or whether the better option is really to homeschool and I should look at it like teeth brushing -- the kids don't really WANT to do it, but I won't have them getting a mouthful of cavities either. I'm sure there's a more pleasant analogy than that, but it's been a long day.

I would actually love to homeschool the kids. It's been something we've considered since before DS8 started K, and frankly I'm a good teacher. DH fell in love with the current school, though, and I think he worries that the kids wouldn't have a "normal" life, with the same exposure to other kids their age. Of course, the other issue is the money -- giving up my job would really make it hard.

I wish I had a crystal ball to figure out how much was needed to ensure that the kids learn a decent academic work ethic, how to overcome challenge, and not develop a bunch of life-long lazy habits. If anyone around here's amazing kid invents a way to look into the future, please PM me.

Least-worst options usually involve part-time or full time acceleration. No one really wants their child to be sitting next to older kids all day - but at least the child is sitting next to kids of some kind all day.

Challenge in afterschool and in summer works well for some kids.

I think the next best thing to a crystal ball is to observe who the child reacts to novel learning situation, and to learning situations where some work is required. If the child only wants to play if they are sure to win - that tells you a lot without a crystal ball!

Smiles,
Grinity

Funny you should mention that. We enrolled DS in a CTY online Critical Reading class for the first time this summer. He's just starting his 2nd week. So far, what I've seen is a lazy attitude with high expectations. He doesn't want to take the time to think about the questions, nor to answer them fully, but he thinks his answers deserve high praise. Frankly, he's been more absorbed with messing with the fonts on the computer than answering the questions. It is only the second week, though, and I'm very interested to see how he progresses. Perhaps the class will be more valuable than just providing DS with a learning experience. Maybe, as you suggest, it might provide insight into whether or not it is enough.

Thanks for the thoughtful reply!

I am worried the same will happen in the fall when I enroll DS7 in a reading class at CTY. I hope it won't be a waste of $600!

Necessarily? No. I agree. Everyone is different.

But I have a really hard time thinking that because people are sometimes able to overcome crummy circumstances, it means that it's perfectly okay to keep kids in crummy circumstances. The logic there doesn't work for me. Unless you think the kids are being made better by the crummy circumstances, the ends don't justify the means.

If we can do better for them--whatever better is, given an individual child's and family's needs--why not do it?

That's why I like the idea of looking at all the options available and going for the least-worst, rather than saying "how much damage is what we're doing going to do to my child?" Casting a wider net makes better sense to me.

I agree with everyone else, that it depends so much on the kid, whether they are happy or not, etc. From our experience with our DD8, it comes down simply to whether she is learning some new things. Eventhough she's been grade advanced, the work is still easy for her and certainly not moving at a fast enough pace. But at least much of the information is new to her. She also has things like a better social fit, so that allows us to be more okay with the lack of proper pace. As long as some things she's studying are new to her, I'm okay with that for now. Of course, that's why we're still advocating for DS6 after a year of having basically nothing new to learn. We're not wanting the perfect fit for him (well, okay, that would be nice !), just for him to learn something new. We figure that if they're going to spend almost 7 hours a day at school, they should learn something new.

TraceyQNS, what Grinity said really made me stress less about the CTY course and gave me a different perspective.


I've decided that whether or not DS8 does well in the CTY class, for us it won't be a waste of money. If he does well - great, we'll heave a sigh of relief and say it's not too late, and we'll look for other things along these same lines to keep him challenged. If he doesn't respond in an acceptable way, we'll see DS likely NEEDS something more than we're doing now, and will probably make more drastic changes.

Thanks for the insight, Grinity!

That's the spirit! You Go Girl! It's the Journey of life that really counts.
Grinity

Indeed! Great attitude!