Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy Advice on grade skip

Hi everyone,

My husband and I have two kids who attend a bilingual school. Our eldest son (age 7, grade 2) is quite fluent at this point and has been feeling underchallenged in both languages this year. He could read English before he started pre-school and is advanced in maths as well. Our younger son is in the kindergarten, which is 80% French and has a big focus on motor skill development. Right now it's a good fit for him, and he reads at home with me.

We'd tried to work out an arrangement for some type of differention for the 7 year old child and hadn't gotten anywhere, bar a grade 3 phonics book in place of the second grade one. This book isn't a challenge for him. We gave up and then my husband discovered a near-ish school that does placement tests and lets kids work at whatever level they're ready for. I visited the school and it seems like a cool place. It goes to grade 6. Then we found a similar school that goes from grade 6 to grade 12, which is also nearby. We applied for next year.

So out the blue today, we got an e-mail from the current school offering to let our older child skip grade 3 next year, and now we have to make a decision.

The new school is private but is half the cost of the other one, BUT it's English only and our younger son probably needs at least two years in the bilingual school to really pick up the language. He's only had one. The schools are in opposite directions and so having one in one school and one in the other would be a big pain.

I was hoping some of you might be willing to share your experiences with grade skipping. I've read a lot of the posts here and people have made some good points. I have some specific points I was hoping people might have insight on:

* What was the most challenging aspect of a grade skip?

* Was one grade skip enough for your kids? Our eldest is already working on grade 5 maths at home and his I think his reading is at least at a grade 4 level. The new school will let him do 6th (or 7th) grade math in 3rd grade.

* What about the socialization thing? I honestly don't think a one-year skip is a big deal, but I'd like to hear from others who have been there themselves or whose kids are there.

The bilingual thing is such a complication!

Any advice and/or insight would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers,

Val

P.S. After reading a lot of the posts here, I'm very well aware that this is a good problem to have! :>)

For me the most challenging aspect of the grade skip involved being really really sure that my kid wouldn't 'run out of smarts' down the road when school finally gets harder - so the above level testing, the individual IQ test, amd the Iowa Acceleration Scale Manual were a great comfort.

Starting a new school is a social challenge in general, and I've heard of things going both ways socially with gradeskips. Does your son have any dear friends at his old school? Are they also local or part of other social networks?

If the LOG is high enough, and there aren't 2E type problems, then one grade skip may not be enough. Go sit in your 4th grade classroom in your current school and check out the teacher, the flow of the day, how much abstract thought is involved, how the kids interact. It sounds like you can take the gradeskip at the current school for at least one more year, and switch to the new school (with perhaps another skip) the year after.

I would reccomend continuing to participate in the process of applying to the new school just to see where they would place him... I've learned as much from watching various school interpret my kid as from the IQ scores.

Best Wishes,
Grinity

Grinity,

Do you have any concerns about missing a subject when grade skipping? For example, state history is covered in most schools in 4th grade. Maybe it's not all that important to learn state history, but maybe a key point in grammar, math, etc., might be skipped. Do you just address the missed information as it comes up, or do you review what a child might miss and give a quick lesson on it afterschool or during summer?

I have a thought on this. Our daughter skipped third grade and is in fourth now. She is highly verbal and we were worried about some gaps in other areas. The only gaps we have found are some math facts and rules, which she is still picking up quickly. Her writing and reading is a non-factor. We were very worried about social issues and leaving her close third grade friends, but she has worked it out and it was a good move for us. She has to work a little bit now, but it still comes easily. Leaving her in third grade would have been a waste of a year. She has really enjoyed fourth grade.

We also looked in a private school for third grade. After testing her, they old us that she would probably do better with a grade skip at the public school and if we wanted to go private, reapply next year as a fifth grader. That turned out to be good advice.

Funny you should ask. Much is made of how great it is for the high LOG kids to have Gaps becaue so much of school is repetitious. I have a first hand experience that says sometimes too much is too much without adult support.

When DS11 was 10, we had a midyear skip from 5th to 6th, and was given the opportunity join an honors group of 7th graders in Math "Pre-Algebra." Math isn't his strongest area, but it certianly isn't an area of weakness. He was not able to do it 'all by himself, and eneded up back in 6th grade for Math, after a 3 month trial.

Let's do the Math. He completed 4th grade as a 9 year old, (summer birthday in a heavy red-shirted area) then had a month is 5th grade as a 10 year old. Followed by a skip into a class that is supposed to be the equavalent of 8th grade. 3 years with no prep. Ok, we didn't know what the limits were, and we found out. If he had loved the chicken dance, or been about to make up the classes he missed easily, I would have gone back with Aleks.com and filled in the missing pieces, but those are big IFs. This year he is doing well and getting "A" in the same Math class, and finding it only a slight challenge. So yes, in the future I would take my jumps in slower stages, more like Dottie. And I would hothouse a bit at home, maybe.

I will say, (in retrospect) that althought the Math was too far of a reach for him last year with all the stresses of being a new Middle Schooler, if he had stayed in 5th and only gotten the subject acceleration to Math, I think he would have deeply enjoyed the hard work. So either path would have worked for him, I think. This stuff is hard, but I am here to say that it's better to try and need to adjust than to do nothing.

Smiles,
Grinity

* What was the most challenging aspect of a grade skip? For us the most challenging aspect was getting the skip in the first place. We petitioned until we were blue in the face with our public district to no avail. We were forced to go private, but it was well worth it as I can not imagine either kid in lower grade at this point.
* Was one grade skip enough for your kids? Our eldest is already working on grade 5 maths at home and his I think his reading is at least at a grade 4 level. The new school will let him do 6th (or 7th) grade math in 3rd grade. One grade skip to a private school with a rigorous curriculum and into a class of very bright kids was perfect for our daughter. Early entrance for our YS son has not been enough. We wish we had been offered an additional skip while he was still in the lower grades.
* What about the socialization thing? I honestly don't think a one-year skip is a big deal, but I'd like to hear from others who have been there themselves or whose kids are there.
Our daughter skipped into a situation where she performs above average overall and is included with the more advanced group for math and science, yet is not beyond her peer group. Her socialization has been effortless and successful.
Our son is still well beyond the group in at least math and science and so stands out from the group. It wouldn�t be any better, and would possibly be worse, if he were in 5th grade rather than sixth grade though. He does take pre-algebra with half the 8th grade class where he gets As with very little effort. I think because he is so much younger (3 years) the eight grade students don't feel as threatened by him as some of the students who are closer in age do.

Great advice ladies.

My oldest found the hardest thing about skipping one grade was being smaller than his peers during adolescence (they all suddenly grew a foot taller and hairier). Skip early and try to avoid the "bridge" years between elementary and Middle school or middle and high school.

My second son who also skipped once finds it hardest to be the youngest in his class and still the smartest. I wish I could convince his to skip again, but he's determined to "not be a freak".

My 3rd son only stipulates that he doesn't want to skip to be in his older brother's class (or above).

Gaps can be filled. Do you really think the kids going through the class will retain it all anyway? Besides, I've found that the first 9 wks of school is basically review of previous material to "refresh" their memories after summer, especially in math. High IQ kids should be better at retaining and faster at grasping. Ideally, compacted curriculum would be preferable, but since that's usually not possible, the skip(s) is a good compromise.

OK, here's another question about skips (Val, I hope I'm not hijacking your thread).

When you have a gifted child who learns about twice as fast as a 'normal' child and you get one or two skips in elementary, isn't the child still learning faster than the other children in his new classroom? Are there more opportunities for accelerated education at higher grades but you're limited to skips at lower grades to keep a child learning?

Well 'duh' on me, haha! That would be a good reason NOT to do a mid-year skip.

I agree that the gap thing is over rated. Our school had been telling us since kindergarten that she was in the right place, despite our shock at how far ahead of the other kids she was. In retrospect, we should have skipped 1st grade, but we were new to all of this stuff and believed the school when they said everyone else would catch up. Obviously, we know better now. A difficult part of our decision was the fact that our school has never accelerated any students, we were the first and I am not sure anyone has asked before, it is considered an excellent district with a lot of red shirt kids. Our daughter is tall and on the older side and very mature, so it has been easier to explain to curious parents that think we are nuts.

As I stated, we were late in recognizing our daughters giftedness, even though she has been raising eyebrows with some of her skills since she was 3, but we have figured it out. We are in a very competitive school district and the parents drive their kids very hard, so other parents feel we are hot housing her, even though the opposite is true.

I have been lurking on this board for some time and have learned a lot. Each kid is individual and there is no one solution for everyone. One thing we definitely realize after all we have gone through in the last year is this: No one knows your kid like you do, so go with your gut. We have been right the entire time and I am glad we stepped up to the plate.

Locally, heterogenous grouping doesn't start until 8th grade. High Schools are much larger than the other schools. These two work together to ease things for the 'high rate' kids.

Another difference is that abstract thought is starting to be expected in Middle School and High School. This helps our kids tremendously - I would go so far as to say that kids regularly get slammed in elementary school for bringing up questions that involve abstract thought. It is seen as 'unnatural' and a time waster.

Older kids can attend summer programs, year abroads, travel, do boarding school - yup - more options - including early college. Personally I want to be able to met my kid's academic needs local to our home for as long as possible.

Also - older children are more mature, better able to suffer through the hard times to get the rewards of their favorite activities - academic OR social.

Good question OHGrand!
Grinity

Thanks to everyone for all the replies; I'm reading them now.

First question: what does LOG mean?

QUick reply to Grinity: he's visited the new school once (spent a day there) and was very enthusiastic. It's *very* small to the point where I would call it semi-private tutoring. He was very happy there and the kids all liked him and they invited him back to spend another day there in April.


Val

LOG = Level Of Giftedness

Here's a link that explains what it it:

http://www.educationaloptions.com/levels_giftedness.htm

Incog

I think what's most important to us is that our kids stay challenged. I've seen the consequences of allowing kids to coast through too-easy curricula that don't teach them how to stare at a problem that seems too hard, think about it, and eventually find a way to solve it. This is an essential skill, and if not learned, can lead to giving up too easily.

So the skip to 4th would mean that the French work would be reasonably demanding and definitely interesting. The English stuff (~50% of the day) would probably still be too easy. This leads me to think that the new school might be a better option, but my husband and I need to ask about a skip there too --- mainly because I look ahead a couple years and don't know if they could accomodate him.

There is a local middle/high school for gifted kids that might be a good choice later.

A main reason that a formal skip is attractive is that it will give my eldest (and likely the next two) options when they're 16 or so. They could probably all finish high school by then, yet would probably be too young to leave for college. This period could be a free time in their lives when they could pursue internships, take random courses at a local community college (CC), etc. I especially like the CC idea because it would allow them to pursue random interests with no pressure to declare a major, which of course requires that you follow a defined path of study. One of our local CCs has an astronomical observatory, a biotech program, a strong art program, etc. etc. Of course, by then they'll be old enough to decide for themselves, but what I can appreciate as a grown up is what a wonderful gift a couple of years of unpressured time would be. A few ground rules from Mom and Dad plus a lot of choices for the kid could be so wonderful!

Val

Val -
Did you say you were 'new' to this?

because the 'consequences of coasting' is also what's important to me and my DH and the key to all our actions so far!

What you discribe in the 16+ years is sometimes called Gap year - and sure does sound like fun!

Smiles and ((thumbs up))
Grinity

This is one reason why we work hard to challenge our kids at home. I was just going over Math Kangaroo problems with my eldest and his initial reaction to one of them was "I don't know! It's too hard!" A couple minutes later, the light went on and he got the answer. This was my cue to tell him about how important it is to learn how to solve a problem that looks hard at first, and then to remind him about how good he feels when he does something he thought he couldn't. When this type of experience happens enough time, a person stops being intimidated by a difficult problem and instead remembers all those other ones that were so hard at first, but were doable in the end. Of course, this lesson carries over into life....

Val

Exactly Val! So glad that you are doing this at such a young age! I think part of the pace problem does get answered by afterschooling, formal or informal.

Here's what I've heard, informally, from other BTDT parents:

Most teacher can do in class differentiation when the child is within one or two years of their actual readiness level.

So if you take a kid who is +3 mental age (which is already PG, if the more modest end of PG) Give them a .5 year credit for having a summer birthday, and .5 year credit if you live in a heavily red shirted community. Get a documented skip for a total of 2 years, and rely on teacher differentiation for the 3rd or 4th year, and volia! You are theoretically there.

I wouldn't reserve skips for PG kids in a community which has no gifted program, or in a place where the gifted program just isn't an option, or is 2 hours a week or less - and lets face it, these are the majority of programs in the U.S. right now. I would look at skips all along the range of Gifted, as a tool to solve problems - perfectionism, underachievement, social, or insulted-dignity problems.

Still, do afterschooling for the depth or pace as needed.
Persue subject accelerations in at least one subject to fill that intensity need. Here's the big secret: Children don't have to be in a program that perfectly meets all of their needs in all of their areas in a totally taylored way. There is a big difference between individually made clothing and and wearing a plastic garbage bag. Our kids need to be given something better than a plastic garbage bag, but usually they don't need the hand made clothing, just perhaps, to be allowed to choose ready made clothing for other departments, previously restricted.


((No Offense intended to the kids who DO NEED 'individually made clothing' - your kids are real, and you are doing a beautiful thing by taking them home and making sure they get what they need - you are my heros, but you know who you arde - and not to suggest that lots kids wouldn't enjoy that situation if it works for their family - I just don't want everyone thinging that their child NEEDS to be totally challenged and perfectly accomidated, just given something to wear besides a plastic garbage bag, ok?))

I tend to think that in school, math is somehow the easiest to address with accelerations if it is an area that your child is at least somewhat interested in. First, math is really easy to prove that your child gets and to document the need for. Second, math is the area that elementary teachers seem to be the least confident in and are therefore the happiest to give up. Third, the sooner you get your math liking child away from math-hating elementary teacher and into the hands of a math loving HS-certified teacher the better.

DS is subject accelerated +3 in math now, even though I think that is is "weak" subject. He is not officially skipped at all in the humanities, even though he's reading and writing (not handwriting) about +6 to +8) these days. But his elem. teachers have enjoyed supplementing him in reading and writing. They love givinig him books that they have enjoyed reading and then discussing them with him. He gets very creative in his written work adn the teachers love it. There is just more room to go above and beyond in a humanities assignment than there is in math. In math, you have to be shown a few things and the elem teachers get freaked out if you get "creative".

We still do not have any real science, yet, so this has to be done at home. I'm not sure there is much hope for school science until AP in high school. Luckily, I'm strong in science and it's not DS's primary love.

Well said acs!
Grin

Grinity--I love your way with words

This brought to mind something our school district's 504 coordinator said: "The law only entitles you to a Chevy, not a Cadillac." Of course, she was referring to accommodations for a life-threatening peanut allergy, not GT accommodations. My husband said later that he wanted to tell her he was only asking for seat belts in the Yugo...

Cathy

These are both great analogies. Most parents of GT children know the school's limitations on funding and staff. But there are many non-cost options such as grade skip, which actually save the school money. Educating a student in 11 or 10 years instead of 12 is much less expensive in the long run.

Clustering doesn't cost a dime.
Nor does Block scheduling,
and yes Grade Skipping saves lots of money.
Subject acceleration sometimes has the transportation price tag - but is so worth it!

The things we were asking for (like no peanuts in the classroom) did not cost a dime, either. Unfortunately, sometimes people just don't want to expend any effort to make changes for a child.

Pretty Sad, I think.

School administrators seem to fear that giving anyone "special treatment" of any kind sets some kind of precedent and that they will then be inundated by requests from demanding parents. Is that fear really justified? If not, where does it come from?

A perspective from a "skipper". One, many posts that you need to keep the child challenged. Ditto. And most important to install good work habits since so much comes easily, even with skipping.

I am a product of the 1960s acceleration idea. About 8 of us skipped through grade 4. In grade 7 & 8 we had "enrichment". There were only 5 of us from our school at that point. Enrichment gave us some different school situations but also brought in art appreciation -- Group of Seven, Van Gogh. Some music. Report organization methods. Etc.

I always hear things negative about studies and skipping. It isn't the skipping, it is the socialization skills of the home environment. My parents were party animals and I was a cheerleader and on the math team in high school, despite skipping another grade, so I was 2 years younger than my peers. I was also an athlete. My strong social skills translated in a Wall Street career that used both my brain and my personal skills. In my experience, the social skills are critically important.

Because of my track I can tell you many stories of academically successful people, living in beautiful homes, without friends.

Getting close to the personal. My husband did not skip. They did not have it in his small PA town. His parents supplemented with extracuuricular. He won so many scholarships and science prizes that his parents did not have to contribute to his schooling at Harvard. He went on to Medical school and a successful career. Although he did not skip, his parents' social skills were very introverted and his ability to make a friend is near zero to 1 on the ten point scale.

Although I have joined this board because of my little 3 year old, it isn't just about education. I live in NYC, I have great options. But as an older parent, it isn't as easy to create a socail environment as the one I grew up in. I put so much effort in creating a social framework to help her with those skills. I see now, she gravitates towards the smarter classmate as a buddy, though another may be nicer and more respectful of her, she gets bored. So you can skip, who are they going to be friends wiht. If it is the same small circle, they make miss out on building the necessary social skills to make friends and build a community for themselves as they get older.

Ren

Sorry for the quick post without spelling and grammar check. I am rushing out.

Ren

Exellent point, Ren.
DH and I put so much though and resource into DS's social skill development that when I heard the Rodney Dangerfield joke that 'my parents had to hang meat around my neck so that the family dog would play with me,' I thought - great idea! We were really in the dark that a child might have intellectual needs during elementary school that couldn't be met at home with Simon and Garfunkle lyrics. ((shrug)) Seems like you have the whole package! Can I be 'retrocativly jealous?' ((giggle))

Grinity

Thanks Grinity, but in every life there are things that happen that create their own issues. I hope I can figure it out before it is over.

Just got back from Peter and the Wolf at Carnegie Hall. Now I am for exposing kids to things but...they had John Lithgow reading, in English and then in Spanish. By the time he finished the segment and the orchestra started again, kids were miles away in distraction. Good lesson in overload.

Where is the limit, when do you know you have reached it. Even though we try and not pressure our kids, not praise the achievement but the effort, they know. I mean we are here becaue they are not stupid. So when do they know it is OK to relax, when it is hard, to say so? Maybe many of you know because you have seen that. With my three year old, she walks away, like with the scooter, until it got easier with size.

A friend had her second round interview at one of the gifted elemnetary schools today. All kids (286) got 98th percentile or above, for 48 spots. Many people say it isn't right for their kid after the second round, too much pressure. Isn't this forum about those kids of kids. Isn't a school of all gifted kids the right environment?

Now I am rambling.

Ren

Ren

Wren, It sounds like the elementary school you describe is highly competitive. It would seem that either many kids are hot-housed to get these scores, the test is not appropriate to differentiate the HG and PG kids or it's a hot spot for PG kids. Do you feel there is an elitist attitude going on? In our school, teacher work their hardest not to point out GT kids, because of the "everyone is gifted in their own way" kind of attitude. But they are quick to point out sports achievements:) This kind of school would be a great place for a kid feeling out of place otherwise or it may make them feel average or discouraged in this environment.

But then what is this forum about? We talk about gifted kids needing challenge. What if they feel average if they are with a bunch of other gifted kids? In my opinion, and experienced, they will work harder. They will develop the skills and study habits the average kid develops to get good grades in the run of the mill school. Kids like me, who didn't have to study to be top of the class, develop terrible study habits, there isn't that competitive edge to push yourself.
There is a private gifted school in Brooklyn. I toured it this fall. It is progressive, no tests, no grades (and the kids get into all the top colleges without grades)and it is suppose to provide a non pressure environment. This school I am talking about is progressive until 6th grade, then they go to rote learning. But they found you have to. But I am not an educator. Just participating in this discussion as a diletante.

Ren

Ren,

I guess I'd say this forum is about us parents with challenging parenting situations all coming together to share information and opinions. It's designed to be a place where you can pretty much say whatever you want in a "safe" environment. However, we all do have different opinions from time to time. I've had a post here or there where I didn't feel like people were getting what I was trying to say. Sometimes things get lost in e-translation.
I would say even though we are not all alike, we do like each other.
Glad you found us, glad you are here.

Incog

Ren,

If your post was in response to mine, I hope you didn't misunderstand me. I find it amazing that all kids applying to this school you talked about are in the 98th percentile. What I meant is that they need a better test to differentiate btw. all these kids. How else do they determine who is accepted? For example, DD9 just took an Explore test that helps to differentiate among the kids who test in the 95-99th percentile in regular grade achievement testing. Research has shown that there is variance even among the kids who score "gifted" and this test helps to highlight some of those differences. If my DD was applying to a school that everyone scored 98th percentile for entrance exams, I would like to know what kind of testing tool it is (IQ vs. academic) as I feel that although GT kids can be nurtured and molded, it isn't something you can inherently teach a child. There may be some bright (not GT) kids in the bunch that absorb a lot of information that may be a product of hot-housing. Not suggesting that this is the case, but a hypothetical question. Therefore an IQ test may be able to help differentiate there.

I hope I didn't come across the wrong way. I was more intrigued and just threw a bunch of questions out there out of curiosity. Sorry for rambling:)

Oh Ren,
this is very well said! Yes they know which of their behaviors brings out the catch in our throats and the shine in our eyes - whatever that maybe. And when they get a little older, they tease us about it. Right now my DS11 is teasing us that he is our science project to see how much rock 'n roll trivia from 5 decades we can squeeze into one little brain. Still, he can almost tell Jethro Tull from Emerson, Lake and Palmer - and we are just so proud!

So I think that the advice to praise effort is a good way for us to focus our unconsious reactions, to become the parents our kids need us to be, and doesn't have to be an all or nothing thing.

Let me tell you, when your kid looks in your eyes and askes "Do you ever wish I was normal?" your heart will drop down to around your knees, and you will be glad for those unguarded moments when your body language just shows that yes! you love learning and you love that they love to learn!

Thanks for bringing that though back to the surface.
Grinity

I think we all believe that a certain amount of challenge is good for our kids, but there many many different ways of creating challenge. Demanding schools are one way.

But there are many others. A lot of what we do here is share our ideas and experiences. But we also recognize that what works for one kid might be miserable for another.

I was not challenged much at all academically in high school, but took the opportunity created by not ever having much homework to try things I would not otherwise do, like run for student counsel and take tap dancing lessons. These challenges (some of which provided opportunities for true failure) were really growing experiences for me. I was able to transfer those skills quickly into academics when I got to college. It worked out fine for me.

For our son, we realized early on that we needed to provide him with opportunities to learn perseverence because academics came easily to him. We chose violin lessons when he was 5. He is not musically gifted, but he has been playing violin for 7 years now and is being invited to perform throughout the community. He worked for that and it did not come easily. He wants to keep playing, which means an hour or so of practice a day at this point (much less when he was younger). He will never be a great violinist, but he will be a competent one and that gives him pleasure. If he were in a challenging academic environment, he might not have the time or energy to keep playing. We are not willing to risk that.

I know several men who are HG+ who hated school and hated academic challenge. They wanted to learn because they were curious. They never needed to be pushed to learn or learn-how-to-learn, because their drive is intrinsic. They resented schools trying to teach them because they already had their own goals which were different than the school's. One is a self-taught airplane mechanic, another a farmer, and another a ship's captain. They are all successful and highly respected. They would have been miserable in any kind of formal schooling, even one for highly gifted. I suspect homeschool would have made their childhoods less painful, but it was not an option when they were young.

So, yes, we talk about challenge, but we also talk about how to get the best fit. And personality, values of the family, and availability of options are all very important as well.

First of all, for those that thought I was angry or frustrated, no, just posting for debate.

Question, I thought one of the "characteristics" of the gifted child was competitiveness? Or is that what they call the drive to learn?

Thank you acs for your post. It is interesting that these gifted elementary schools bring in violin lessons by grade 4. I totally understand what you are saying. Although my formal academic background is in science (engineering college) I never worked in the sciences, went right to Wall Street and was self taught. But it was my drive that this knowledge path was right for me. It worked because it fit my internal drive to understand that field. It helped that I understood applied calculus.

Have a good day everyone.

Ren

ROFL! Oh my! We are a serious and sincere bunch, not your best candidates for debating - srry!
Grinity

Hmm, I've never heard that, Wren, that a characteristic of gifted children is competitiveness. Have you got a citation?

Personally, I think competitiveness is an entirely different issue than a drive to learn, and almost opposed, if you think about it. A drive to learn is a drive to better oneself -- there's no competition in that at all, really, except against the clock or against one's self. There's no winner or loser -- there's just one child's drive "to know" for his own pleasure.

For what it's worth, I was completely under-challenged in school (despite a one-year grade skip) and my ability to learn for the love of learning was lost by about age 8. I was done putting effort into school. So by the time it got remotely interesting (high school, for me), I didn't know how to study -- I studied the very least I needed to and did well mainly on my prodigious ability at multiple choice tests. I did well in school -- I have two bachelor's degrees from recognisable schools. But I feel I could have actually learned more and enjoyed more while I was there, if I had a better work ethic.

And *that* is what I'm hoping to accomplish for my son when I post here. I'm trying to make sure that he keeps that zest for knowledge that he has now.

Mia, I have posted exactly the same thing. I totally lost my love of learning and had bad habits also. The only that kept me passing in college was the math, since I had no study skills or discipline. And I am doing the exact same thing with my daughter.

Obviously my verbosity is lacking -- due to losing that love of learning.

I was not putting that competitiveness thing up for debate, I actually thought I saw that on a site. Either a hoagies link or something. I swear I did. Because it caught me by surprise.

A hypothesis: My husband, who didn't do the grade skip and never lost his love his learning, reads 2-3 books a week. Has a fact file that rivals Brittanica. My brain is not word driven. I store tapes, I remember things by saying them outloud in my head, I visualize tapes. And I analyze til the cows come home. Perhaps it is the way our brains work that make us get bored more easily and lose our love our learning.

Any comments from those who have been working with your kids longer and have experience on their learning styles?

Ren

Mia - I agree. I don't think my DS is even slightly academically competitive. He is just moving at his own pace with his own curiosity, as he is able. He doesn't pay attention to what other kids are doing. There are a few kids in his class that are more competitive (my book is harder than your book), but it doesn't seem to be GT related at all. I was like you in school. I definitely was not competitive or had a strong internal drive to do well. I just did what I had to do to get through. Had I actually been engaged and challenged in elementary school, maybe that would have been different.

I actually think the school Ren mentioned above sounds interesting in their screening process. Are they IQ testing preschoolers? I don't think they are necessarily looked for the most PG kids. It sounds like they are looking for a very bright child that fits a certain profile, since they require multiple interviews. Actually, some of the most PG kids might not perform well in an interview depending on how it's formatted. I could see this being a turn off to the parent of a preschooler and might not be a fit for every HG-PG child.

((Humor Alert - Did 'Questions' Post? I missed it? Where are you, dear?))

Ah! is competitiveness on of the characteristics of giftedness?


I've seen that on those check lists, but not IRL. Lovely to think about though - here's my personal take on it.

I think that competitiveness, when it occurs in gifted people, can be part of their OEs and quite intense. I also think that androgeny is more common amoung gifted folks, so that women who are competitive-natured are more likely to express it in ways that are traditionally reserved for men if they are gifted.

Justice-loving is also on the check lists, and while not universal, certianly something I see IRL. For males, in this culture, at this time, it is especially difficult to be Justice-loving and competitive both, although my DS certianly is a breathing example. For DH, he is fiercely competitive but only with himself, so he says. He hate games. For me, I would say that I've got a 'dominant' type personality, with the Ahisma, that I usually enjoy competition if it's clearly for 'fun' and all the participants are enjoying the 'thrill and agony.' I do get a special thrill from beating my adult male family members in chess. Different from the excitement of playing younger players and celebrating what a jam we've gotten ourselves into. I think that blend is more allowable with this time and place's female role expectations. Health Care is a great field for we who have both because we have permission to do a lot of 'bossing around while helping/doing good/ and teaching all in the same day.' Certian Immigrant and Working Class perspectives help us loud females a lot as well. My grandma was the Mamma ruling the home, wooden spoon in hand, delivering dinner and disipline with the same impliment. My own Mom is more colleged, but the temper and attitude of the rightful ruler is still there, when there aren't any guests around to see.

What I don't have is the need to prove that I'm good through making pointing out that someone else is less able. I sometimes mourn my lack of this because it makes me feel so out of step with others. Why can't I get with the program? But that is rare. Usually I'm sure I'm on the right path, at least for me. See, Dominant, but not competitive. I definitly feel good when I feel I've made the world a better place, even if only slightly, even if for only one family.

So there are my thoughts on competition. I love to hear more about the role competition has played in the lives of your family members.

Smiles,
Grinity

Sorry, forgot someone asked about the test for the gifted preschool. I had asked some questions before so I thought it was covered.

The elementary school run by Hunter College (not public but free) used SB4 I believe. I could be wrong and it might be SB5, but I think it is 4. Then they run a 2 hour group session to choose the kids they want. Looking for reasoning skills I have heard.

The public elementary gifted school used to also use SB but public pressure on the school board made them go to the OLSAT but they do not have a second round anymore. It is top scorers.

Competitiveness. I have been known to be competitive, but I was also a serious figure skater in past days. So I think if you are an athlete it has to be there. And there is a hidden need to win at strategic games. Just an internal pat on the back that I could win.

My daughter (is this inherited) is very competitive already at 3. I am trying to work with that because losing at Candyland can be very upsetting. Not running as fast as the child 4 inches taller can be upsetting. So this is something I am wroking on with her. Getting there in baby steps.

Ren

Competition - more questions:
Introvert v. Extrovert
2E twist
Auditory Sequential Learners v. Non-Linear thinkers.

Hi Wren,

When my dd was three she was also very competitive. And like your dd she got very upset at losing at Candyland. There were times when I had to put said game in the closet for a week after a big tantrum. She needed to learn to be a good loser just as much as being a good winner.

This weekend my dd had her first swim meet. When she was out of the water the timers gave her her official time. She got a big smile on her face because her time was 5 seconds faster than her best practice time. She didn't care what other kid's times were or even what place she got (she got 3rd). She only cared that she did better than she had done before. Definitily one of my proudest moments! (this girld didn't know how to swim four months ago). She is learning that practice and effort pay off.

As for the gifted private school being too competitive. If all the children there are similarly gifted then then children's experiences would be no different than an average student in an average school setting. Isn't that what we are striving for? Aren't we fighting for our kids to be allowed the same opportunity to struggle and succeed with some effort?

Competitiveness -- Wren, my ds is ridiculously competitive. He's grown out of it somewhat (he's 5), but it's still there. To work on it, we taught him the word "persevere," and it's a word we use at least 5 times a day at our house. If he's struggling or losing at something, we ask him what he needs to do to succeed -- and he knows he needs to persevere. He's been much more willing to try with a word to describe the effort in a positive light.

As for outright losing -- for that, all we do is the standard "Did you have fun playing? Well, good! We play to have fun, and we usually have fun whether we win or lose -- but it's really fun to win, isn't it?" That's actually worked quite well after about a thousand repeats.

Or maybe he's just outgrown it somewhat, I don't know! It is extremely normal for children that age, gifted or not, to be upset over losing. We all know it is more fun when you win.

At the beginning of each school year, I let GS's teachers know some of the difficulties GS has had to go through. Not to have him let off the hook, but to ask them to apply discipline knowing he might have different motivation for his actions. One of his traits is 'Justice Loving'. I had assumed he had this trait due to being treated badly as a toddler. His teacher this year identified that trait, and a few others, as GT traits. He is also competitive and really hates losing so we've had to work on who's version of 'Justice' he is going by. This teacher also has an 8 year old daughter in the math GT program with GS, so evidently she has first-hand experience with GT kids.
This board has been useful in trying to separate out what are inborn traits of a GT child and what might be learned behaviors.

Very happy that we got the terms. I knew someone here would have them.

Thank you Grinity.

Ren

The "justice loving" quality is an interesting one. We have that one bad at our house. All 4 of us. DS and DD sometimes loudly proclaim injustices they see out in public. It doesn't matter if it is any of their business. DS has a real issue with smokers.

Yup, we're justice-lovers here, too. We tend to play games with no winners or losers or we play typically competitive games without keeping score. It suits our temperament better than competing. I'm not opposed to healthy, friendly competition, mind you. I was a jock when I was growing up. But I think focusing on competition at too young an age isn't very healthy.

DS6 went through a competitive phase, but don't most kids do that around age 4 or 5? He threw tantrums if he lost a board game, and he bragged about being the smartest one in his class (ugh) and raced to finish reading more books at preschool than his friend, but he didn't so much care to compete otherwise. Happily, this phase passed quickly!

So for my part, FWIW, I suspect competitiveness is a developmental phase. I certainly don't think it's necessarily a sign of giftedness, especially past age 4 or 5.

I am glad the competitive thing on Candyland is a passing phase.

How about someting else. When Wila was about 18 months, she saw these twins in the playground. The boy was disabled physically and mentally. Although she didn't play with him (due to physical limitations) she always went out of her way to greet him. She didn't play with the sister who was always vying for attention and developed annoying habits.

The boy became quite attached to Wila since she was about the only child who was friendly with him. And I heard the compassion part was a characteristic. Anyone else had this kind of weird experience?

Ren

Yup. That's very common. It goes hand-in-hand with the social justice thing. I think it has something to do with a greater empathy because of a precocious ability to put themselves in the place of other people.

Not all GT kids do this, of course. And certain developmental issues or 2E-type problems (like Asperger's Syndrome, for example) naturally preclude this sort of empathy. But it seems to be relatively widespread among GT kids.

Not a lot of evil geniuses out there, IRL, despite what the James Bond movies would have us believe. (And that's a shout out to you, Grinity! In case you didn't catch it there. )

Hello all i am a newbie to this site . i am a single mum to a nearly 7 yr old boy whom is GT with adhd . This boy has been one hell of a handfull... He sympathises with autistic kidz in a profound way all young children. i think he does feel exceptional and quite different to his peers in many aspects. He is precocious and also very musical (pitch perfect and remembers every line) He loves maths and factual info. All this as it is, he is very immature in many ways. I am thrilled to have found this group Heidi

Hi Heidik,
Welcome!
I'm so glad you found us!
Hee Hee "quite a handfull" was the best discriptor of my son up to age 6.

I think that many gifted kids to have the intellectual ability to feel different even age age three!

It's funny that word "immature" - like gifted it means something different to everyone who uses it.

My son was judged to be immature because he clung to the teachers a daycare. In retrospect I can see that he didn't have much in common with his 'agemates' and just wanted to have a 'normal' conversation. He also had different fears than ND (normally developing)) kids. I also think he clung hard to me, in a way that looked immature to others, because he had such a strong need to understand the world, and I could 'translate' for him.


Hey, maybe your kid is immature, but I'll love to hear more about it. Perhaps they just have a 'different' developmental path, ((shrug))

Love and More Love,
Grinity

Grinity You have made me feel so welcome . thank you for your reply. Have been reading recent posts and feel like ive "come home" in a sense because raising a child whom is so different than his peers can be so draining and having adhd on top of that-- oh boy!! His brain likes constant stimulation and if hes not thinking and concentrating he touches , mouths everything in sight.How old is your son now? By "immature" i meant his behaviour-- his brain is so advanced i think he gets fustrated that things dont move fast enough for him so he acts out like a much younger child. Love from London (which is grey and wet n windy today !)

Welcome! Welcome home!
so it ISN'T that we aren't good mothers! Although it feels that way in public sometimes! My son is 11.5 now, in 7th grade. I have to say that the wonderful thing about Middle School is that all the kids are 'falling apart' behaviorally due to trying to handle all the changing bodies, and he fits right in! Who would have thought. For my son, having a school which doesn't let anyone get away with anything is very helpful. He got detention for wearing white socks on Friday after repeated warnings! Yippee! It just eats into him watching kids 'do wrong' and not get caught or punished, so this school is really good for him because they have a punishment and they aren't afraid to use it.

At 7 he might have hit or pushed another kids when totally stressed, but that's about over now. He is making progress on his "Goldilocks Problem" - that is, needing more challenging material, but not having the patience to sit and do it if it seems one bit difficult. I think that's due to the gradeskip and finally having the experience of actually struggling on a weekly basis. Yes my son wiggles and chews. His school demands that they wear Memory Devices for the Computer to keep their work on, and he fingers, chews the cord, breaks them, disects pen, writes on his fingers.

I have heard that ADHD kids do tend to be less mature. I liked to say that my son may be acting out, but that, especially when he was unnacommidated around age 7 (his worst year, 2nd grade) he was actually mature, because the challenges he was facing were like 3 times larger than the ND child. Well I did like to say that, but I'm not sure how many people believed me!

Heidik,
I don't know if subject accelerations are allowed in your schools, but I hate to see a kid potentially miss a 'good-fit' school situation because of their behavior when the behavior may be caused by the 'poor-fit' of the school in the first place. KWIM? What are the details of your son's school situation?

Love and More Love,
Grinity

Hello again just logged in and read your reply- thanks! Aden has just changed school mid year. I had been on the waiting list for 2 1?/2 yrs so feel like ive won a mini lottery! This is a fab school and he has a IEP for behaviour but they know his abilities too and provide extended lessons in proven topics! There are alot of Japanese kids in this school and they tend to be advanced so the whole level of expectation should be quite high. So relieved to here of your DS and his chewing antics..Ha ha. By the by although i live in London i am Canadian by birth..another reason why i feel ive "come home"..Heidi xx

Had to comment on this one. My DS9 is a "chewer". All the cuffs of his shirts are Ruined! (and they're supposed to be handed down to younger brother some day). Clothes that survived 2 older brothers intact, destroyed.

He is also hyper focussed on some things (like video games) and I believe it makes him irritable. Does anyone else find technology time, even limited, creates a monster? This morning he played Rune Scape for maybe 20 minutes or less and he ended up fighting with DS6 and being disrespectful to me.

Heidi -
Yippee! Good luck with the new school. So nice to have hope!

Cym-
I do have a soft spot for RuneScape, as that is where he got his typing skills up to speed (110 wpm for a few months) after I had bribed him to learn the basics on Mavis Beacon. For us the whole point of letting them play video games is to have something to 'take away' when the behavior gets out of hand. So yes they make good behavior both harder and easier to achieve!

Grins,
Grinity