Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Identification, Testing & Assessment New here -- would love some advice

This is going to be long -- I apologize in advance!

My 5 year old son was just tested with the SB5 here in our little town. He is going to start Kindergarten in the Fall, and his pre-school teacher at Montessori suggested we get him tested in order to get him into a gifted program at the new school he will be attending. I realized a long time ago he was gifted -- he's the middle of 3 children and the differences in his development were stark from an early age (Speaking very early, taught himself to read early and read fluently by 3, advanced math skills, etc. - well, things I'm sure you're all familiar with). He also meets all the criteria for milestones in the profoundly gifted website, but I realize that's not science!

My issue here is that this is all unchartered territory for me, but I believe him to be at least highly gifted, if not more -- and this has been corroborated by the 3 teachers at his current preschool, who told me they had only seen 1 other child there who came close to him in the 20 years they'd been there. They have told me that he is currently reading at around a 6th grade level and doing math at a 4th grade level. However, he's also completing his work, all correctly, with no teacher assistance, so they keep giving him harder and harder stuff, but haven't found his limit yet. So who knows where he really is.

Getting to my point, knowing what little I did about the SB5, I was expecting a pretty high score. My brother's IQ was tested at 162 back in the late 70s (when he was in middle school) , and my parents tell me they believe my son has surpassed my brother at this age, so I was thinking probably 150+.

When the psychologist called to tell me his results, she seemed very impressed -- must've told me he was 'highly, highly gifted' at least 4 times, and even said he was in the 99.9th percentile. Then she said his full scale IQ was 130!

From what I'd read, 130 was moderately gifted and put him in the 98th percentile, so what she said didn't make sense. She went on to say that she's tested probably '10,000' kids and the highest score she'd seen on this test was 132, and added that the ceiling was 140. I was in the car with small children when she called and didn't ask many questions, and really when she said the last 2 statements I just assumed this was some other scale and I'd research it when I got home.

While I still don't understand the percentile thing or the 140 ceiling remark, what I did find out was what many of you probably already know -- that the SB5 and other 'new' IQ tests correlate fairly well with other tests when you are in the average range and maybe 1 sd away from average, but after that it gets all haywire -- I gather due to the Flynn effect. What I finally concluded was that, based on a 130 FSIQ on the SB5, a child might really have an IQ of 130, or he/she may have a higher or even much higher score on another test. I saw a comparison chart to the SB LM that showed 2 children who'd scored around 180 score around 130 on the SB5! Another study compared students' scores who'd previously been identified as gifted and highly gifted on the WISC IV with their scores on the SB5, and found the SB5 scored significantly lower. With those scores, most of the children wouldn't have qualified for gifted programs at all at their schools.

So now I don't know what to do. My husband thinks I'm silly because I want to know for sure where he is -- he says it's just a number and he's already going to get into the gifted program at his school with the 130. My argument is that if he's significantly higher than 130, we need to know in order to get an idea of how to better accommodate his needs and have documentation to take to the school so they can provide an education plan and whatever he might need to better succeed. I would like to find somebody who will test him with the SB LM, but there is nobody around here who does it, or who even has much experience with testing gifted children.

So what would you do? One part of me wonders if I'm a crazy mom -- I mean, I have a well-respected IQ test that says 130... should I just trust that? My gut instinct says that's a vast under-estimation of him, but I've talked to 2 psychologists here - including the one who administered his test (who wasn't the one who met with my son in the 5 minutes before the test or conducted the brief interview with my husband and me, btw, is that normal?) - and the woman in charge of the gifted program at his new school, and they'd never heard of the SB5 generating lower scores for giftedness. I don't know if that's because they don't generally test gifted kids, or because what I've been reading isn't true. Have any of you heard that about the SB5, or had anyone credible say it's true? I live in a very small town, so I'm thinking that might have something to do with nobody knowing this.

Should I travel somewhere and get him re-tested? And if I did, would the SB LM be the one you'd recommend? If so, where would the best place to go be? Although we don't have a lot of money, I am willing to travel if it means a score I can really trust. How long would you wait? Or do you think SB5 scores are reliable?

I'm so sorry for the novella I wrote -- I am apparently not gifted in summarizing. But since I'm treading new ground I'm having trouble weeding out what's irrelevant (apparently)! Any advice or similar stories would be greatly appreciated!

I'm running out the door and I'm sure more informed people will pipe in, but just to put your mind at ease on a Saturday morning....

Yeah, the numbers are wrong. 130 does NOT = 99.9%. The ceiling is NOT 140 (although it's also my understanding that when you get into that neighborhood things become iffy, 130 isn't really that neighborhood).

If she was giving you these numbers over the phone, maybe she just misspoke or you misheard. Maybe she said 140 or 150. Call her back. I think the ceiling is 160 and I DON'T think 140 is quite 99.9%, so maybe she meant to say he scored 150 and the ceiling is 160.

You have A LOT of relevant data - your observations on your three kids, your parents' observations of your brother, the observations of 3 preschool teachers. I think it's very likely that 130 is either not correct or not representative of your son's abilities.

Finally, my kids have been tested a lot because we applied to different programs with different requirements and because scores for some of the programs needed to be more current that what we had. So with 2 sets of 3 tests, this is what the scores were (in no particular order:

135, 139, 148, 140, 140, 121

Obviously one doesn't belong. It happens. BTW - neither of my boys presents as advanced as what you are describing.

Thank you all so much for your input - I do know some more details of his testing session, as I went by and picked up his report. He scored a 132 on verbal and a 125 on non-verbal -- subtests scores were:

Nonverbal
FR - 18
KN - 9
QR - 16
VS - 12
WM - 14

Verbal
FR - 15
KN - 14
QR - 15
VS - 15
WM - 15

As you can see, his Non-Verbal Knowledge score is fairly low -- I had a feeling something was going to be off right after the test, because he told me afterwards that he had fun, but knew he'd gotten some wrong. I assured him that was okay (although he didn't seem upset about it!) just so long as he did his best. He said, "Well, I didn't do my best." Then he continued, "There were these pictures, like one was a flower, and they had other pictures underneath them. She would say, "What do you do with a flower?" and I said, "I don't know." Then before she turned the page I saw the watering can, and I knew that was the right answer, but didn't think I could change my answer." I told him that was okay -- I'm sure they allowed for things like that, and he said, "Well, I did that a lot of times." Very nonchalant. Little stinkpot. So I get the feeling that at least on that part of the test he was just answering quickly without really thinking.

(It's funny the things that he knows that they'd never test him on. For instance, the other day I found a note typed onto my iPhone from him (it's filled with all sorts of little poems and stories he writes on there) that I hadn't seen from last year, entitled 'Words That Don't Seem Like They Are' followed by a list: qat, xi, qi, cwm, and qoph. He can tell you what they all mean due to the fact that he loves to play Scrabble - and wins against adults as often as not - and we always make him look up words he plays when he can't tell us the definition. Plus he calculates his own score, which of course involves addition as well as multiplication -- we check him, but he's almost always right. Of course there's all sorts of other weird stuff he knows that wouldn't be part of an IQ test, and his vocabulary is huge, really. I'm sure you all are familiar with what I'm talking about. You just wish they could talk to them for a couple of hours and then base some of the score on that!)

Also, she said 99.9th percentile to both my husband and me on separate occasions -- I thought I'd misheard of misremembered, but he said he remembered her saying it, too, then actually showed me the paper he'd been taking notes on while she talked, and it said '99.9%' right on it. I know that's not right -- I don't think he even scored 99.9% on any of the subtests unless it was NVFR, so I have no idea what she was talking about!

Just curious, JaneSmith -- did they give any thoughts of a particular reason for the big discrepancy on that one test?

I just wanted to put my son's scores out there because Dottie had mentioned individual scores so I thought I'd give more info on the results, but your answers and advice have made me feel so much better -- thank you JaneSmith, Dottie and gratified3! In the beginning it feels like so much is riding on a documented IQ score -- it's wonderful to know that other things will go towards identifying him in the school system, and that achievement tests are worthwhile and that there is talent search testing available so young.

And I also appreciate the input on the SB LM -- very helpful to know!

Another question -- if I do get him tested in another year or 2, is there a way to pick a test that would focus more on his strengths? He's obviously very verbal, but one of the other kind of strange things about him has to do with numbers and memory, and this used to put me in mind of Rainman when my son was little, although thank goodness this psychologist said she didn't see any reason to suspect Asperger's or any other form of autism. Anyway, he loves music, and not only has his own collection but at a young age raided our collection, too. He has well over 200 cd's in his room, ranging from Raffi to Johnny Cash, the Cure to John Coltrane (on a side note, it's very funny to hear your 3 year old call out from his room, "There's an ant crawling on my Thelonious Monk CD!"). At 3 years old, some random song might come on the radio, and to be honest by that time he had so many cd's that I didn't even know what he had anymore, and he would pipe up, "Hey! That's 'Is She Really Going Out With Him' by Joe Jackson! It's #3 on my 'Look Sharp' cd, and it lasts 3 minutes and 35 seconds, the same as 'Redemption Song' which is #5 on my Bob Marley cd, 'Uprising'!" (Don't check those numbers -- just making them up for the purpose of example!) So occasionally I'd quiz him about a random song I'd come up with that I knew he owned, and without fail he always knew the artist's name, cd title, number that the song was and how long it lasted to the second, and could always list a string of other songs that were exactly as long and all the details about them. If a particular song was on more that one cd he could tell you all that info for both versions. And believe me, we checked, and he wasn't ever mistaken. It was really weird - almost creepy, actually. I don't know what all that means, except he has an exceptional memory, but oddly didn't score but a 14 and 15 on the working memory part of the test.

So is there a way to find the best test to hone in on his strengths? Also, what do you tell them before they test? I was so worried about making him feel pressured that I'm thinking I might've made it sound TOO unimportant!

Again, thank you all so much for your advice -- it has set my mind so much more at ease. Coming from you all who've been there and beyond it is really wonderful to read!

Ugh -- wrote another book.... sorry!

BTW, I know that since I'm asking so much about testing again it sounds like I didn't pay any attention to you all when you said that the test scores aren't really that important, , but I did -- I promise! I will wait and see how the school reacts to him and if they seem to need more 'proof' before I decide to test again. I did have a fairly discouraging conversation with them before, though, when I wanted to set up a meeting before school started next year to let them know about him. When I told them he was advanced in both reading and math and wanted to see what they could offer him, they gave me a rehearsed answer about they would evaluate him every 9 weeks and if he was reading at an advanced level they would put him in the 'high kindergarten level' reading. My math question was largely ignored. When I protested that he was beyond kindergarten level for reading, they told me that they'd found that kids who were already reading at kindergarten didn't really have the basics down. Again, my insistence that he did fell on deaf ears. Gah!

No matter how much I reiterated the facts, they didn't seem to hear. And they wouldn't see me in person -- this was all over the phone. His pre-school teachers have written a letter about him and provided me with samples of his work for fear that he won't be recognized there, but they didn't want to even see those ('We'll do our own evaluation'. I asked where the reading and math evaluation started, and they said at letter and number recognition, and each evaluation takes 10 minutes. They'll never get to where he is in 10 minutes!)

When I got his IQ score of 130 they finally paid attention, and said they would set up a gifted education plan for him over the summer, so I am very, very glad about that. But it does seem like they need those scores in black and white rather than anecdotal evidence to take anything seriously, which is kind of scary for me. Maybe it will change if they can observe him for themselves at their school.

Thank you, Dottie!

I love this!! (Actually, I love your whole CD collection story.) What an interesting child! You must have a lot of fun at your house.

I have nothing to contribute in regard to your questions, but just wanted to welcome you here.

peace
minnie

Nope. The tester just said that he seemed to do well and that in her opinion it was valid. My older son has tested less consistently even within the individual tests. For example, his FSIQ on the WISC IV was 135, but the GAI was much higher. And he got a 139 on the SB-V, but he hit the ceiling on 3/5 of the verbal subtests.

I am so glad I found this forum... have not written on forums before (as evidenced by my inability to be concise!), but you all have been so helpful and welcoming -- thank you again. I have learned more about the reality of the testing and what to expect from the school system in the last 24 hours or so that I've been a member here than I have in all the internet research I've done over the past 4 years!

So when the FSIQ is lower than the GAI on the WISC, do they (school systems, etc.) ever go by the GAI for admittance into a program? Is it frustrating for you still -- the inconsistencies with the test scores, I mean -- or have you gotten used to it by now?