Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Identification, Testing & Assessment DYS Application and Test results question

4 years ago DS took the WISC-IV and The WIAT II. His WIAT II scores meet the DYS requirements but his WISC IV don't (but he is a number guy not a words/verbal guy and I've always believe his score was low). He has since tav . fg+-+9 ken the Explore test twice and the ACT twice and always meets and exceeds their minimum requirements.

Should I send all the scores (meaning two sets of Explore, and 2 sets of ACT as well as the individual scores) or should I just send the last two years of scores? Should I send the individual scores at all since one of them doesn't meet the requirements?

Also what did you use for recommendations?. I homeschool and he has never taken outside classes so he doesn't have other teachers to evaluate him. When I asked Davidson about it they said family friends(but not relatives) are fine but when I look at the questions I would feel weird asking them to answer those questions. When we get together the parents talk and the kids run off and play games. I certainly don't know any of their kids well enough to evaluate them on that level and I don't see where they would know mine that well. They've heard stories that I've shared but that's not the same as witnessing the kids doing it.

The only adults he really interact with regularly are his religious instructors but they aren't working on any academic topics where they would really see him shine.

His most recent test scores are really strong (he is in 6th and meets the requirement for 7th, 8th, and 9th graders). Are his tests scores enough to get accepted or is there a lot of weight put on the recommendations?

I applied four years ago and was denied (I presume due to the not quite there WISC-IV score or maybe the lack of strong recommendations then too) and so I'm paranoid about going through all this effort and not make it again.

Thanks for your thoughts
Stephanie

Hi and welcome.

How off are his old WISC scores? The way I understand the application you need at least 2 out of 3 items: IQ test, Achievement test, portfolio items.

If his WISC scores do not meet the requirement but are not that far off, I would submit those along with the most recent Explore/ACT scores. I would then include portfolio items; in other words, assume that the IQ is not really counted and supplement with portfolio. My guess is that if you only submitted achievement testing you would be asked for more information.

AS for the recommendations, do you have any friend that comments on how smart your son is? What about somebody from a coop homeschooling group. Do you do homeschool entirely on your own? People have adviced using any type of coach. We used a family friend along with a teacher. You only need one but you can submit 2. I would bet that the religious instructor (at least one) has seen how unusual your DS is, it doesn't have to be something academic.

The other thing is that the qualifying scores have changed over the years. I am not sure how long they have asked for qualifying index (verbal/performance/GAI) instead of only FSIQ.

Here's the breakdown of his WISC-IV scores.

Verbal Comprehension 112
similarities 14
vocabulary 15
comprehension 8

Perceptual organization 129
block design 18
picture concepts 11
matrix reasoning 15

working memory 110
digit span 11
letter-number sequencing 13

processing speed 136
coding 17
symbol search 16

Full Scale 129

So he's really not that close on the IQ score but I think the extremely low comprehension score dragged him down. The tester did note that his block design score was "an underestimate of his true ability to analyze and synthesize" and his strength is math and verbal/reading things he's really only slightly about average. I've always felt that the WISC-IV probably wasn't the best choice for showcasing his strengths (but I didn't really know much about testing back then). As a contrast he scored 160 on the math composite in the WIAT II so at least that test measured his strengths.

GAI wasn't mentioned on the report but when I found a chart it actually lowered his number. His high processing speed really helped him overall.

Honestly people have been saying since he was 2 how very bright he was. It took me until he was 5 to even realize that he was different from other kids.

We don't participate in any co-ops. He is the oldest of 5 and so I simply don't have time (or money) to run kids to outside classes and still be fair to all. The only thing I've outsourced is Phy-ed because multiple kids can participate at one time.

So I'm working on putting together a portfolio. I don't have much from years past. I'm not really into saving things. So far I have copies of some of the homework assignments from his Algebra II book and copies of a couple of his Chemistry tests. It's all from the last couple of months and should at least support the current ACT scores.

Still working on the recommendations, we pulled him out of Sunday school classes last year but he is involved in Bible Quizzing. My hubby is supposed to talk to the coach and see if he will do a recommendation for us. Otherwise I'm at a loss there because the other contacts are from years ago.

Thanks for the feedback, it's helping me think through this process. I'm just hitting a wall about where to go next with DS and really hoping getting into DYS and talking with people with help me navigate the next few years until he is mature enough to attend college (he's academically ready but not emotionally so I need to keep him engaged several more years despite the fact that he is already surpassing me in math).

The WISC IV and the WIAT-II were from when he was in 2nd grade. Reading comprehension has always been a struggle for him. He can read an unknown word (pronounce correctly), spell an unknown word but is completely clueless when determining the meaning from the context. These were factors discussed with the tester. Since then we have pushed Reading/English and done loads of reading comprehension exercises. These skills have improved over the years but at that point in time he was only reading and comprehending slightly above average (I should have clarified better originally).

After going back and looking at his old scores, I realized he did better in reading/English than I remember but because it has always lagged behind the math/science, I never really recognized that he wasn't just average in those areas.

Here's his scores over the years
3rd grade Explore
English 13
Math 19
Reading 16
Science 18
Comp 17

4th grade Explore
English 17
Math 24
Reading 16
Science 18
Comp 19

(I was always puzzled by the fact that there was no change for Reading and science but there is a big jump for the next year)

5th grade ACT (I bumped him up because he had pretty much maxed out in math and I really wanted to track his progression)
English 20
Math 25
Reading 21
Science 26
Comp 23

6th grade ACT
English 26
Math 33
reading 25
Science 30
Comp 29

I know Davidson doesn't list ACT scores for 5th and 6th grade but they said they would extrapolate for lower levels so I'm certain he would meet them in 5th grade as he has 2 of the subtests met for 7th graders and his comp is only 1 point low.

Anyways I know he pretty solidly hits the requirements for achievement testing. I can pull together homework assignments to create a portfolio. But I don't know how strong a presentation that will be. To me his work isn't that impressive but since I look at it every day it's quite likely my perception of normal is skewed and with him being my oldest I have nothing to really compare against.

But without the IQ numbers and without a strong recommendation, and in my opinion a "boring" portfolio because it's simply normal stuff for us, I'm just stressing that it won't be good enough. But I suppose everyone worries to some degree if their kid will make the cutoff.

But I'm glad to here the WISC numbers are sometimes just really off because my gut has always said they weren't accurate.

Funny you should question the Asperger's because at one time I questioned that myself. Back when we did the first testing in 2nd grade I had looked into it as well. While I still don't really understand it my impression is that there was this line with Autism on one end aspergers in the middle and gifted on the other end. And my son was definitely on that line between aspergers and gifted. But I don't really think he is an aspie, he is actually quite good with his personal interactions (my parent's own a greenhouse and he has been waiting on customer's since he was 6) and he has lots of friends at church, etc. He also has exceptional fine motor control he's been writing the letters of the alphabet since about 2 1/2 and now his handwriting is 10x better than mine.

When he was little he was obssesive about lining things up in order and having things just so. I don't see much of that any more (but to some degree he has simply learned that younger siblings will mess up his stuff and he just has to deal with it). He is still a perfectionist but I think that is more a gifted thing anyways.

Thanks for the compliment on my son. I frequently find it hard to evaluate his abilities because I see it everyday and it's just "normal" stuff to me. It usually takes someone making a comment for me to step back and realize that not every kids does the things he does.

Since we do homeschool, I have him take the tests every year because it's my only outside source of evaluating him. He doesn't mind them (he always get a special breakfast out to eat with dad before the test) and it really helps me get a sense of where he's at and what we still need to work on. I just wish they had something harder than the ACT so I could continue to track progression.

I've known since DS was 10 months old that we would homeschool (and I didn't even know he was gifted then) so we have never even looked at a school. However, I always thought when he went to high school I would have him take science or a foreign language at the the school because I hate those subjects (our state laws allow for taking 1 class in the public schools starting in Jr high I think and still being considered a homeschooler). The person who did our initial testing is a counselor in our school district full time (and does private testing as a side job) so she was able to tell me a lot about our school district. The biggest obstacle is not only is he years ahead in math but he is several years behind in emotional development. At the time he was 8 and was ready for an 8th/9th grade class but was emotionally about 6 years old. The tester flat out told us, that our school district would never be able to really meet his needs (we were really only talking math at this point) because they had no options for taking an elementary student to the high school for classes. Even if I provided transportation, really would I WANT my 8 year old taking classes with 14, 15 year olds? Tester flat out said the best thing I could do for him was to keep homeschooling him. Which really helped my resolve when someone who works full time in the school district said he didn't belong there.

So no I've never really tried to work with the school district and I'm not likely to start now. My challenge is to find college level stuff because our state law prevents anyone under 15 taking in-person classes and I have no idea how to go about evaluating on-line classes (my hubby got his bachelor's degree through an on-line program and it was a horrible excuse for education in my book so I'm really gun-shy about them)

So is your son a DYS? Or are you just thinking about applying?

With respect to the college courses, I was able to get around that rule many years ago by doing "independent studies" in science and math with some of the professors at local universities (WI and NC, if you happen to be in those states). Also, there are some excellent, thorough math books (at a reasonable cost) available on Amazon.com (by Dover, Oxford, and Princeton). Perhaps one of the professors at the university would be able to tutor him while he is still homeschooling. I have found that many mathematics professors (and graduate students) love the opportunity to teach someone who is interested and talented in math.

We have a DYS but I don't know a lot about the admissions criteria. What I will say is that whether you apply to Davidson or not, with your son's talents I think it is time to find other people to bring into his academic life. That could be in the form of mentors, teachers, etc. Maybe a friend has a dad or a neighbor who is a retired engineer or scientist. Perhaps there is community organization for adults interested in birdwatching, computer programming, astronomy or some other interest your son might have and they would welcome a younger talented person. I would start looking around and seeing who you can find.

I'm vary curious about what you are saying about your state law. Would you care to share what state? We have a child in early college and know many from other states and I've never encountered a law such as this and it makes me wonder about the source of the information. I will say as a general rule, don't listen to the first answer you hear if it is no. Often that answer can shift when they see those sorts of ACT scores.

Also, I would encourage you to start at the college departmental level. Approach the math department and ask for advice. Perhaps they know of a "math circle" for high school students in your area or perhaps they could connect him with a grad student who could tutor him or they might offer to let him audit a course. I agree with LilMick - it is fortunate your son's strongest talents are in math because it is a world that really understands younger talented students.