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    #74678 04/23/10 02:29 PM
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    Last edited by master of none; 12/26/13 07:32 PM.
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    The "issue is effort, not grade" slide makes a good point. Thanks for posting it.

    "What a Child Doesn't Learn" is pretty powerful:
    http://www.wku.edu/academy/?p=430

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    Not sure if this will help you, but I've heard:

    If a child does well in sports, do you hold them back, and tell them not to run that fast? Wait for the other children to catch up?

    If a child is musically inclined, do you tell them to stop practicing?

    If a child can draw, do you tell them to stop?

    If a child can learn at a fast pace, ...

    (I don't have the exact phrase, but it was something like that. Perhaps someone else knows...)


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    I don't know if this will be any help to you.

    Page 32, Part 2.
    Talks about levels of giftedness and the classroom. Uses some older IQ numbers in parts but primarily talks in levels.

    http://www.dest.gov.au/sectors/scho..._modules/extension_mod1_primary_pdf.htm.

    PS. If link appears broken, click on cached copy.

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    The best argument I think of is that if you don't allow him to grow at his own pace, he will probably become a problem both in class and at home when he begins acting out his frustration and boredom. It really burns me that schools are so quick to encourage mediocrity.

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    Originally Posted by master of none
    Second, I asked which was the best solution in her mind, for us to work toward. Her answer was that she just wished she was born like everybody else and didn't have this problem. She said she didn't care what happened as long as she could feel better.

    Ouch!!!!
    That's a tough thing to hear. Some little gifties can say it, and mean it with all the intensity of their souls, and then be fine 5 minutes later, relieved simply by being listened to. But if what she says fits what you are seeing long term - that is a call to action.

    ((hugs))
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    Originally Posted by jesse
    Not sure if this will help you, but I've heard:

    If a child does well in sports, do you hold them back, and tell them not to run that fast? Wait for the other children to catch up?

    I've used this one quite a bit. I have friends that have athletic kids that don't "get" why I try to get DS what he needs in school. I don't know if it's changed any minds but it makes them thing.

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    The following link contains a survey regarding adolescent and teacher attitudes toward gifted students, those with daughters should find the results particularly interesting. It also has an interesting story under the title - Why do we accept sporting talent so readily?

    http://www.dest.gov.au/NR/rdonlyres/0BDB5F1C-E56B-4A10-B47F-66275050522E/13920/SpecModule3_PRIM.pdf

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    Thanks for posting that link. Loved the story about Mr. Palcuzzi�s PTA! grin
    This part was disturbing: frown
    Quote
    Indeed, teachers have been found to adhere quite strongly to one of the most prevalent gender stereotypes; that boys are innately brighter than girls and that when girls� achievement matches that of boys it is because girls have worked harder (Arnold, 1995).

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    Originally Posted by matmum
    It also has an interesting story under the title - Why do we accept sporting talent so readily?

    I would hazard a guess that we approve of sporting talent because it ultimately entertains us and because we can understand it and because we can understand it we admire it even if we can never achieve it. On the other hand, if someone is a brilliant physicist and there is a competition of physicists, who would attend since most likely even other physicists studying a different topic would have trouble understanding. Kind of like watching a spelling bee in another language.


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    Originally Posted by Breakaway4
    Kind of like watching a spelling bee in another language.
    Good explanation and analogy!

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    In the article, she seems to criticize praising effort over ability (specifically for girls). In several of the under-achievement/perfectionism seminars that I have gone to, the lecturers encourage you to praise effort over ability for gifted kids -- citing Carol Dweck's, Mindset: The New Psychology of Success. Any thoughts?

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    I think the problem she's pointing out is that the stereotype sets up a false ceiling for girls. Under the stereotype, if a girl achieves as high as a boy, the boy can just put in more effort but the girl is maxed out.

    Praising the effort over ability is important as so many researchers point out. Praising a girl's ability would seem to be a solution to overcoming the stereotype but it creates more problems than it solves. So my working theory is: praise the girl for her effort but make sure teachers are aware of her ability too.

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    Hi MON,

    Have you ever read the book by Miraca Gross entitled, Exceptionally Gifted Children? It follows 15 or so children in Australia who are exceptionally gifted. It discusses the school history, psychosocial development, family environment, and IQ data for each child. It also has a chapter at the end called "Where are they now?" that discusses how each child matured into adulthood. The conclusion of the book is that the kids with the higher IQs needed radical acceleration in school. The kids that received this faired far better as adults in jobs, social relationships, and general happiness than the kids who were held back and not accelerated by the school.

    It is an interesting book. The copy that I have has a copyright of 2004, so it is fairly recent. Most of the research in the book is from the 1980's? perhaps.

    Hope this helps! smile I've dragged this book to numerous school meetings and have not seen much recognition or acceptance for it. But it is documented research on the academic needs of HG+ kids.



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    Hi Ebeth, in that Miraca Gross book, the kids that needed radical acceleration in school -- what higher IQ range did she say? (I know it is probably approximate and depends on your child's situation, but I'm hoping for some guidance on that.)

    thanks

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    I was reading this:

    http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/d_major_chord.htm

    Quote
    Social-emotional maturity in intellectually gifted children

    Teachers who fear that gifted children may face social and emotional problems as a result of acceleration have often not taken into consideration that intellectually gifted students differ from age-peers of average ability in their emotional maturity almost as much as in their intellectual ability. In children and adolescents emotional maturity is more closely related to mental age than to chronological age. Teachers with a special responsibility for intellectually disabled children are particularly sensitive to the developmental delay which is readily apparent in both their cognitive and affective development; however many teachers are unaware that intellectually gifted children are characterised by advanced affective (as well as cognitive) development.

    The most comprehensive longitudinal study ever undertaken in human psychology - the Terman study - is also one of the landmark studies in gifted education. At its commencement, almost 80 years ago, this study contained 1528 children of IQ 135+ (Terman, 1925). The sixth and latest volume of the study, The Gifted Group in Later Maturity, was published only four years ago (Holahan and Sears, 1995). The authors discuss, frankly and comprehensively, the influence of mental age on the subjects� cognitive and affective attitudes and behaviors through childhood and adolescence, and the influence of their high intellectual ability on their relationships, interests and career paths in early, mid and later adulthood.

    �Mental age as behavior determinant. Through the school years and into adolescence these children�s interests, attitudes and knowledge developed in correspondence with their mental age rather than with their chronological age. Their academic achievement as measured by tests, their interest and liking for various future occupational careers, their knowledge about and interest in games, their choice of recreational reading materials, and their moral judgments about hypothetical conduct were all characteristic of older non-gifted children whose mental age-range was approximated by this much younger and brighter group. Even the intellectual level of their collections was more mature than that of their chronological age-mates.� (Holahan and Sears, 1995, p. 16)

    In both their cognitive and socio-affective development, intellectually gifted children resemble older children much more closely than they resemble their age-peers.

    That is about half-way down the page. Right after that is a Linda Silverman example of what it is like to be gifted, with a mental-age of 9, being in a class-room of 6 year olds.

    I hope some of these things help...

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    MON,
    You probably saw this thread:

    http://giftedissues.davidsongifted....ould_you_approach_this_sc.html#Post69759

    Quote
    "appropriate education", she needed to "learn how to learn"

    Thinking teachers can agree to that at a minimum...


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    Originally Posted by master of none
    I don't know if this is denial or clarity of thinking, but dd is not over the top in IQs. She is only 146. I can understand why a 160 might need more acceleration, but dd isn't topping out her testing. DD has already had one year of acceleration. Gross doesn't give current IQ testing numbers, so it's hard to compare. I think if she said 146 Wisc IV score sometimes need 2 grade accelerations, we'd push hard for that, even if it meant private school for a year.

    MON - Only 146? My DS6's IQ is only in the 130s, and I can already see how additional whole grade acceleration would benefit him academically. But at the same time, for him, socially he's right where he needs to be. I think focusing on an IQ number is not the way to go... you need to focus on your DD as a whole!

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    Yay! That is good news. Someone who is willing to learn is definitely better than not. Real happy for you.

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    MON and Jesse:

    I had to go back and reread some of the Miraca Gross book in order to try to answer your question. Here are some of the more interesting tidbits that I've seen so far.

    Most of the children in the book have an IQ in the 160 to 175+ range. I believe that these scores are from the Stanford-Binet L-M test. I think that I probably misspoke earlier, in that all of the kids probably needed radical acceleration. Instead her research breaks them down into three categories: Those who received radical acceleration, those who received a token one-year acceleration, and those who received no acceleration. The last group fairs the worse in terms of self-esteem, social relationships, and motivation in school.

    Here is an interesting paragraph though: (page 268)
    Quote
    Furthermore, the majority of individaul IQ tests, such as the WISC III, also have ceilings which are too low to assess the intellectual capacity of most highly gifted students and are quite impractical for the assessment of the exceptionally or profoundly gifted. Several of the children in this study who scored in the high 140's on the WISC-III's predecessor, the WISC-R, subsequently scored at 160+ on the Stanford-Binet L-M. As related earlier, Jessica, when tested on the WISC-III, scored in the moderately gifted range!

    I don't know, MON, if the extended scale on the WISC-IV helps this or not. I agree that it would be wonderful to have some type of data comparing IQs on current tests with IQs on older tests. As parents, we would then have an easier time understanding the research that was published 20+ years ago. Research on HG+ kids is difficult to find as is. It shouldn't be made more difficult by trying to interpret research findings based on IQ test that change every so often. Perhaps the Davidson Institute should apply for a grant to give free testing to their 1600 or so kids? We would make a nice, statistically significant data base. wink Doesn't someone out there need data for a PhD in this field? I would happily sign my child up for free testing.

    From page 279:
    Quote
    It cannot be sufficiently emphasized that the problems of social isolation, peer rejection, loneliness and alienation which afflict many highly gifted children arise not our of their exceptional intellectual abilities but as a result of society's response to them. These problems arise when the school, the education system, or the community refuses to create for the exceptionally gifted child a peer group based not on the accident of chronological age but on a commonality of abilities, interests and values. Only through the creation of such a group can exceptionally or profoundly gifted children be freed from the taunts and jeers of age-peers, the pressure to camouflage their abilities in a desperate and futile struggle to conceal their differences, and the frightening sense of being the one-eyed man in the country of the blind who is distrusted and resented because he has vision- or perhaps because of what he can see.

    Hollingworth (1942) reported that, in her longitudinal study of profoundly gifted young people, the most successful interventions occurred when the children were identified earlier, rather than later, in their elementary schooling, and were either accelerated or placed in a class with other gifted children. She claimed that it was between the ages of 4 and 9 that the social difficulties experienced by children of IQ 160+ were most acute. The present study mirrors Hollingworth's findings. Indeed, as one traces the history of the 18 young people in this book, it can be clearly seen that, in the majority of cases, the seeds of their future successes or difficulties were sown in the early years of school.

    One last note: (page 281)
    Quote
    In every case, the young people who have radically accelerated have found both outstanding academic success and the 'sure shelter' of a warm and supportive friendship group....Some of the young people have not yet found that 'sure shelter'. In the majority of cases these are the young people who remained, for much of their elementary schooling, in an unfacilitative classroom setting with age-peers, or children only a year older, who would have had little comprehension of the ideas, interests, and with who one has little, or virtually nothing in common.
    Indeed, a striking finding of this study is that, the earlier exceptionally and profoundly gifted children are placed in a setting which is deliberately structured to allow them access, not to age-peers but to children at similar stages of cognitive and affective development, the greater will be their capacity to form sound friendships in their later childhood, adolescent and adult years.

    I hope this helps! Thanks for pointing out that there is access to her work on the internet. I have not taken advantage of this yet and will happily cruise the net looking for more data.


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    Good luck, MoN! Keep us posted on your progress.

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    Originally Posted by master of none
    When I said, yes but, how will it feel to no longer be head and shoulders above everyone? And to always get As. She said, maybe someone could be head and shoulders above her and then she wouldn't have to be the one.

    It's probably a lot easier and healthier to go through this in grade school than later on. My first experience with not getting straight As and not being the smartest kid in class didn't come until college. It sounds silly now but to get the first B of my life in college was devastating to me.
    Also for my daughter, when she moved from traditional to GT programming, she told me that it was a relief not to be the smart kid that everyone else went to for answers. She liked having other kids that she could go to.
    Good luck getting her the grade skip that she wants and needs.

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    I would take your DD's comment about not wanting to stick out anymore and take it straight to the principal as a reason that you need to work out the details of a grade skip this month, before school ends. If you're nervous about it, you could always present it as, "I know that you would like to wait until next year to deal with next year, but DD is really feeling the stress of having to fit in, and waiting to begin the grade skip process until next year will only serve to call more attention to her among her classmates. If we could get the details of a grade skip down now so she can begin the year in the new grade along with the rest of her classmates, she will more easily be able to blend in." Perhaps it would be good, too, to approach them as if it is a fact that she is going to get a grade skip, not something you still need to discuss further, and instead focus on which teacher she will be assigned to and what, if anything, she could work on over the summer to make the skip go more smoothly.

    Good luck with the effort. Hang in there!

    Last edited by mnmom23; 05/10/10 09:42 AM. Reason: grammar

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    Originally Posted by Dottie
    I just don't want her set up for the expectations of truly smart kids, when that might not be the case in the next grade either. Peers will pop up occasionally, but there's no guarantee at any particular grade level. Now...there is a compromise of sorts, where say a 145 kid might fit extremely well with 130 kids 2 years her senior, but it's still not truly a "smarter" or even "as smart" situation. Please know I'm not trying to say any one child is "smarter" than another, and hopefully you'll get what I'm trying to say.

    Well put, Dottie, as usual. wink

    I've wondered about grade skipping. If a DC is grade-skipped into a class with other ND kids a year ahead, the work will be more challenging, but will the pace be fast enough? And are the peers a better fit for finding a kindred spirit...? I guess it's not a slam dunk, but hopefully an improved situation.

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    Originally Posted by master of none
    I don't know if this is denial or clarity of thinking, but dd is not over the top in IQs. She is only 146. I can understand why a 160 might need more acceleration, but dd isn't topping out her testing.

    She does not know her limits, yet. Let her find them on her own. She WILL surprise you.

    Originally Posted by Mama22Gs
    If a DC is grade-skipped into a class with other ND kids a year ahead, the work will be more challenging, but will the pace be fast enough? And are the peers a better fit for finding a kindred spirit...?

    When I was skipped, I found the work more interesting. But not necessarily more challenging once I got used to it. I was able to make friends more easily for a number of reasons - the kids took school more seriously, they could talk about more subjects, and I was not a competitor socially for anyone in the class.

    Finding intellectual peers is almost always impossible when in most groups even at college. It is something that she will have to get used to. I liked Ruf's advice - one has friends for different things.

    Originally Posted by Dottie
    MON, make sure she knows that there is a difference between "smarter" and "knows more",

    The best analogy I can come up with is this. Some people are born with great eyesight and others with poor eyesight.

    Like good vision, High IQ brings a different way to see the world. Because high IQ, it becomes very easy to see things that others can see only with difficulty or not at all. It is like a telescope, a microscope, and all kinds of seeing devices wrapped up in a mind. The possessor of High IQ, just like the owner of a seeing device, has to learn to operate their abilities. You need to learn what you can see, how to filter mirages, and how to use it.




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    Originally Posted by mnmom23
    I would take your DD's comment about not wanting to stick out anymore and take it straight to the principal as a reason that you need to work out the details of a grade skip this month, before school ends.
    Yup - yup - yup! The social/emotional argument is usually a good way to get the ball rolling.

    Sadly, a single grade skip isn't really expected to be the 'final answer' to everything, but it is a lovely step in the right direction. It will help, and it will show the school that your DD does have special educational needs that can be positively addressed. Additional subject accelerations might be needed after the transition phase. Good Luck!
    Grinity


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    Originally Posted by master of none
    I don't know if this is denial or clarity of thinking, but dd is not over the top in IQs. She is only 146. I can understand why a 160 might need more acceleration, but dd isn't topping out her testing.

    I think that it's possible to lose perspective on what a "high IQ" is, especially because people have a natural tendency to compare themselves to others who are more talented/faster/have higher IQs.

    As an example, a sprinter finishing 50th at an international track meet is at risk for thinking "I'm not very fast; almost everyone finished ahead of me." In this situation, it's easy to forget that if the whole world had run the race, billions of people would have finished behind him.

    Sure, someone with an IQ over 160 will learn faster than someone with an IQ of 145. But the point is to understand that compared to a student population where the average is around 100, and only 1 kid in a grade of 50 students has an IQ of 130, 146 is very high indeed, and requires a special environment, even compared to the special environment needed by kids with scores of 130. A school with a thousand kids might only have a few with IQs over 140.

    I don't know about anyone else, but I'm still learning about what "gifted" means. I've taught my own kids, but almost no others below the college level. Most of my other knowledge about learning comes from books I've read and this board. The focus has primarily been on gifted students. So my perspective is skewed.

    This translates to a lack of a big picture of how quickly or slowly most other students learn, and makes it easy to forget what 130+ really means.

    Originally Posted by Austin
    The best analogy I can come up with is this. Some people are born with great eyesight and others with poor eyesight.

    Like good vision, High IQ brings a different way to see the world. Because high IQ, it becomes very easy to see things that others can see only with difficulty or not at all. It is like a telescope, a microscope, and all kinds of seeing devices wrapped up in a mind. The possessor of High IQ, just like the owner of a seeing device, has to learn to operate their abilities. You need to learn what you can see, how to filter mirages, and how to use it.

    I like this analogy, and will use it in the future! Good one.

    Val

    Last edited by Val; 05/10/10 11:36 AM. Reason: Clarity
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    Originally Posted by master of none
    ...got an email from the principal who is confident they can manage dd without a skip. Didn't say a thing about scheduling a meeting (which was the topic of the email request we sent!), then ended with the distractor "how would dd like to make speeches in the end of school year assembly?"

    I think she'd rather crawl under a desk and pretend she doesn't need a grade skip.

    Strategies:

    1. Reply to the email with just a very simple message along the lines of "THanks for your message; how about the 17th or 18th for for a meeting?"

    2. To be fair to the principal, when we were considering a 2nd grade skip for DS10, the idea seemed kind of radical. We were used to the idea of one skip by then, but two just seemed...strange. This was also at a school that works a year ahead.

    It took DH and I a while to get our heads around the idea --- yet I could see quite plainly that 4th grade wasn't a challenge to him and 5th probably wouldn't be either. The idea was just...weird.

    The big breakthrough came when we sent him off to 6th grade for a couple of days and talked to the teachers about what he'd be doing in that grade. At that point, it became *very* clear to everyone that middle school was the right place for him.

    Maybe you can help the principal see this merit of another skip by developing a strategy to de-radicalize the idea.

    Remember what I mentioned above about an IQ of 146 being very rare. You may be used to it, but others aren't, and you might need to help them see how different she truly is.

    FWIW, I haven't had my kids tested, but from what I've read here, they seem to be most similar overall to the kids in the low DYS range.

    HTH,

    Val

    Last edited by Val; 05/10/10 02:42 PM.
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