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I just had a fight with DS and I'm fuming mad!! Trying to calm down by typing this out and be contructive by asking for help .

The problem is, he's very bad at accepting that he can be wrong for math. He's working on Aleks now, Level 4. He whizzed through much of it in the last 4 weeks and is at the last 15% percent. His perenial problem is that when he gets a question wrong ("Drawing an Angle" today), he thinks the computer is wrong. He does press the "explain" button and if he understands, it's great and things continue as per normal. But when he doesn't understand, he asks me for help while at the same time fight me off by being SO DARN RUDE when I try to explain. I have tried these methods at various times and sometimes all at the same time:
a) calm him down, ignore his rudeness/tell him to tone down and praise him when he gets it;
b) start to raise my voice, warn him that I will walk away if he continues, and go on explaining as best I can
c) shut down the computer/close the book (before we started Aleks, it was Ed Zacarro) and walk away.

When I get to c, all hell breaks lose because evidently, he wants to understand but can't stop being rude, and is very upset with me for walking away.

Is there a better way of doing this? I notice we get into this cycle when things are going particularly smoothly for him - he starts to be overconfident and become unwilling to accept that his answer can be wrong.

I try to communicate to him all the time that his attitude and his willingness to try, hang on, and learn are more important than getting correct answers. I really hate these fights but yet again, we've repeated the cycle !!

A 2 minute time out for him, with the computer/book still available after might be better - get him to demonstrate he can be calm but not pull the plug, which sounds like it is too severe, and putting a dent in his learning.
Good luck! We have similar issues here with ds9 wanting help, but stopping me every 3 seconds during an explanation so he can try again/take a shortcut/make a guess, which just makes the whole thing take longer.

I agree with chris1234 but there's another angle: I also want to comment that ALEKS can indeed seem pretty dumb at times with the geometry construction questions! We encountered the odd bit of weird buggy behaviour, as well as several things that just seemed odd. I forget which topic it was, but there was something where in order to get your answer counted correct you had to do two things in one particular order whereas in real life both orders would have exactly the same effect, and there was another fairly similar case though I'm not remembering what it was... It can also take a while to realise that it's only when the lines light up that ALEKS is recognising that you're pointing in the right place, so you can end up with a figure that looks fine but isn't.

Your DS is older, but with mine, I did sometimes help him, in learning mode, by doing the actual mouse-guiding for him while he told me what to do. I think is reasonable for youngsters doing ALEKS: the real skill in the end is to do it on paper, which requires a different application of motor skills, so the part ALEKS is teaching is the knowing what to do, anyway. We did keep the "no help during assessments" rule inviolate and he did eventually get through all these topics!

More generally, I dunno. Maybe asking him questions might work better than giving explanations - the Socratic method?

We skipped the Drawing an Angle section on Aleks because I couldn't figure out how to work it! LOL
I broke out a protractor and some paper and we did it the old fashioned way.

When my DD is runnin low on patience with a new concept I encourage her to skip it for the moment and go back later when she has her fresh brain on.

I have to keep in mind how long my son's patience level is and what is the best time of day to do things. It can be tricky. I have always thought if DS could start the day with a jog he would be more relaxed and ready to learn.

If the Math is stressing him consider taking a break from for a few days. Then before you start it up ask him, "how he could make the situation better?" Try to listen mostly and get him to solve the problem. Maybe he needs a day to think about it.(I find this hard to remember. Thanks for reminding me)

Hope this helps. Hang in there.

I read somewhere when children seem to deserve a hug the least is when they need it the most. This has helped me.

Hi all, it's been quite a few hours since and I've calm down, somewhat. Tks for all the advice.

Thinking through, for some reason, Aleks has been a whirlwind for DS7 so far. He never had any drill before - we used to just run through concepts without any practice, so I'm startled he hasn't needed more time. I think he really dislikes to receive any help (socratic questions or otherwise, Collinsmum - he's the sort who, if he looks at hints in some puzzles, tells himself to forget the examples so he can have his "original thinking"), so that in itself must be quite stressful for him, that's true. I did try to position the mouse for him today, but yow, I got an earful. Anyway, he finished the section with a triumphant smile on his face.

My chief complaint is his attitude towards mistakes and how he takes out his frustration. He's always had very fixed ideas about things and he despises mistakes, no matter how I model it for him. Actually, that backfired today because he said I couldn't help him since I may not be right, *roll*. And the backtalk, ouch. On his attitude towards mistakes, I guess only repeatedly talking it through and tireless modelling (gasp) can help. He's only 7yo, so we'll have plenty of time to do all that (I'll have to be saying he's only __yo for a long time to come . )

After a day like this, he's sorry for saying hurtful things and will actually try to be patient with himself and sweet with me for several weeks. And then the overconfidence (to me) and impatience builds, and pow again.

I'm going to prepare myself for the next episode and remind myself about the pearls of wisdom you guys have said:
- a short time out, and assure him that it's not punitive, but rather, for him to calm himself (tks, Chris1234)
- bring out the real protractor set (yes I did find the Aleks version annoying, except he's bent on finishing it). A break for me wouldn't be a bad idea, Floridama!
- yup, this is my son at his worst, but he does deserve a hug for trying so hard. So true!! I have to look past the behaviour and find my sweet kid. Tks, onthegomom.

I know exactly what you are going through, and am sure we are not alone!

It isn't the intelligence or necessarily the subject matter that is the issue it is the attitude where the issues begin. I love hs'ing my son, but his attitude / impatience / rudeness / and inability to accept mistakes makes me insane! Therefore we had to put him into a GT program in town. We are not happy with the program, he complains constantly about how easy the work is. As we see it he is backsliding, and gets away with doing just the minimal amount. It is really depressing for us, but I want to be his MOM and not someone with whom he takes out his frustrations on. He always appologizes afterwards, and he's commented that he doesn't know why he gets so upset with me, yet with his teachers in school he doesn't get angry with them! (I'm glad he sees this - but wish he could control himself - and not go for the Power Struggle)

We are presently looking into relaxation techniques for him to learn, and have consulted a behaviorologist who teaches 'how to relax', and 'how to know when the feelings are about to erupt' and 'how to avoid those situations'. We're hoping that teaching him to control his outbursts, and understand rather than trying to control all situations and thereby inducing a Power Struggle, will in the end allow us to hs again.

Not sure if I've gone off topic - sorry if I did. But I know many families that have these intense issues. I too appreciate all the posts with such great advice!

I wish I had more ideas - one or two of my kids give me a very hard time when I try to explain or teach something - they want to learn, but they can't stand making mistakes and don't want to be taught. It's as though they just want to know automatically without having to stretch their brains to do so, and then they get frustrated when it doesn't work that way.

I might try to find another source of information on the particular issue that doesn't involve your explaining - perhaps a lesson from a texbook or other on-line program (maybe see if there's something applicable at Khan Academy?)

Gasp, AZgirasol, you certainly haven't gone off topic. Quite the contrary, you've hit the nail on the head! I feel like printing out your reply and underlining so many words, especially in para 2. The words "insane" and "Power Struggle" deserve triple underscores at least!

I am precisely in your previous situation with regard to being the primary kicking post, *wince*. And like your son, DS is not usually like this most of the time. From your words, I realize belatedly (but not for next time), that all the more, I should have just retreated for that 2 minute timeout, because wagging my finger to tell him to stop the rudeness is the equivalent of waving the red flag at a bull .

A behaviourologist and relaxation - that sounds necessary for DS & I!! I just want to be a mummy too, and not his teacher. Yes, will be writing all these strategies down on a handy card, ready to be whipped out when the time comes...

We have had similar issues in the past. When this starts to become a problem, I preface any session to help her with, "I will look at this and try to help you IF you promise to be attentive and respectful while we work through it. If you aren't, I won't be able to help.". And... if she behaves badly, then I just leave with the comment, "Please let me know when you are ready to try this again with a better attitude." Usually it works...

We do pretty well in this area but we used to have more trouble. What helped here was definitely just not getting riled myself and using intparent's preface conversation and then a simple walk away with "Let me know when or if you need help."

I dealt with this for years and the only way I could even begin to make some sort of sense of my son's behaviour was to accept that I was his comfort zone. I was the one person he could behave in front of like this, to vent his frustrations with the world. Perhaps at the end of the day he knew the love was unconditional, mind you it didn't make it paradise for me!

When it came to frustration at home and the rudeness started I also would walk away, he would always come looking for me when he was ready. If the frustration was a result of school or some other outside cause, depending his mood when he came through the door, I would either listen without interjecting or let him stomp straight to his room. I would then just wait till he was ready to come out.

Best news is, he did outgrow it!

OK, I am going to TRY to implement these strategies:

-I will say "Let me know when or if you need help."
-I will preface any session to help with, "I will look at this and try to help you IF you promise to be attentive and respectful while we work through it. If you aren't, I won't be able to help."
-I will learn to walk away.
-I will not engage in the Power Struggle.
-I know he WILL outgrow this!

Thank you for all your suggestions, and knowing that we are not alone!

Tks for all the helpful ideas, intparent, Breakaway4 and matmum. It's good to know that the path well trodden comes with solid and sensible advice.

So far, my notion has been that my son needs a lot of assurance even while he's being rude - he needs me to be there or it's a complete meltdown, so I stay and get miserable. But he's older now. The preface can help. I must turn the entire mindset into one of getting him to collect himself before he can get help.

And matmum, it's nice to know kids do outgrow this behaviour. We need to help them manage their own intensities.

For me the hardest time to do this is when I am feeling the deadline pressure for an assignment more than D is. As an adult (and one who does not have any executive functioning issues, which she does), sometimes I can SEE that she is on a path for a late assignment. So I know sometimes that walking away may result in a late assignment if she can't keep moving on it, when she doesn't seem to recognize that probability. That is when I have trouble executing this approach... but I have learned that an argument/power struggle does not usually result in the assignment getting done any sooner anyway. So I try to stick to it (and, of course, encourage her to get started on things sooner). I find that reminding her that she is going to be late when she starts to melt down is NOT helpful, it just adds to the pressure on her. So I try to refrain...