Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Age or Ability Specific Forums Middle School AP courses in middle school?

Hello all,

MY DS10 son has the opportunity to take either AP Statistics or AP Computer Science next year through his school. He will also be taking Pre-Calculus. Two questions: 1) Which of the two courses should he take? and 2) The school tells me that although DS10 will be allowed to take the AP exams, they will not be able to put 'AP' as part of the class description on his transcript. It will say either 'advanced' computer science or advanced Statistics. The school says it is a 'College Board' thing...Any idea as to why? I initially said that was fine (as long as he take the exam(s). Am I missing something? The only other place that I know of that allows middle schoolers to take AP classes is Northwestern's CTD. Thanks!

Wow! Is this a public school?
I have no advice, as my 15 yo will take her first APs next year as a junior, but I wanted to mention that your son and his school are remarkable.

AP Statistics isn't too terribly difficult if he's already in Precalculus. (He should understand logarithms, but that's as hard as the math gets - it's mostly just algebra.) Computer Science I've not seen myself, but I imagine it's manageable...

The reason for not putting the AP designation on the transcript is likely that they don't have a teacher in the middle school with an approved syllabus. That isn't necessarily a bad thing -- it does show that they're being honest (when a lot of places might not be if they thought they could get away with it), although it's really not that hard for them to get a syllabus approved, especially with this much lead time. It does mean that no one is going to consider it AP until he takes the exam, but it seems like a small risk.

Which class is he more interested in?

You can find course descriptions here:

http://www.collegeboard.com/student/testing/ap/sub_compscia.html

http://www.collegeboard.com/student/testing/ap/sub_stats.html

I have taken graduate level courses in mathematical statistics and I taught myself to program when I was 12.

Looking at the course descriptions, the AP Computer Science looks more appropriate for several reasons. The AP stats goes deeply into statistical nomenclature, but without the rigor of proofs, while the CS class looks more abstract but with a lot of hands-on work, so he will have the support of both the ideas and the work. This will give him an introduction into abstraction that the Stats class won't and then set him up to take more rigorous classes in CS or Math. And, CS should be fun, giving him more things to do with his computer.

After he is done with that year, I'd look at taking the following in priority at a community college: typing, C, and logic.

I assume he has taken Geometry? Has he read Euclid's Elements afterwards?

Calculus the next year is fine, but if he likes math, he should set his sights on taking more mathematically mature classes such as Real Analysis, Abstract Algebra, etc at a college. Even if he wants to do something else technical, he will have the time to become mathematically mature.

I helped a number of PHDs that did not have a mathy background and the stats they took set them up to fail because they did not have the deep understanding of what the math meant. For this reason, IMHO, I think he would appreciate stats more by taking a mathematical stats class that is very rigorous plus some actuarial classes - that are upper division or graduate level.

As someone who has also taken a lot of graduate level math and taught myself on my own other areas of math and computers, I second Austin's suggestion. The introduction to statistics at the college level was awful. I stopped taking math for a few years after that. There were no proofs or intuitive ideas presented--just memorize this and compute that with no theory behind it. My graduate courses in probability and statistics allowed for a much deeper understanding and discovery of relationships. There are also other good mathematics courses at the college level that would probably be accessible after calculus--abstract algebra, differential geometry...--that do offer this depth and exploratory aspect to students.

Computing, on the other hand, might offer some abstract ideas to test out on his own and some practical application to his projects. It is much easier to see what is being done and why it is being done than an overview of statistics.

Exactly!

Until he is old enough to know how to organize other peoples' work, he should be kept out of intellectual houses of horror!!

One more comment - when he takes Calculus might be the time to find him his first non-family mentor, too. Mine when I was 13 was a CS PHD - he had an enormous influence on me. A retired Professor or PE (Professional Engineer) might be the right choice.

Thank you all!

Sorry to all for the long delay! We are leaning towards Comp Sci. He might do the CTY C++ over the summer, just in case the AP (in Java) is too rigorous during school year...he just wants to get as high a grade in AP exam as possible (no complaints on my part!) I'm meeting with the school next week to finalize. The thing that worries me is that, he wanted to do pre-calc over the summmer, and start Calc in the fall. Both, school teachers and myself, decided that was just too fast; instead, he will do a 1 year 8th-9th grade Pre-Calc w/ Trig (Saxon). Not thrilled about being with older kids, but what can you do?

delbows, thank you for your kind words, it is an AZ charter school.

austin, lilmick; he has not read Euclid's Elements , but done geometry. Right now, for the near future (after AP Calculus BC), the best I can find is Stanford's EPGY math courses (undergraduate level) since it's the best chance at not having to repeat all his coursework in high school and/or college? Any suggestions/recommendations are always welcome!

Both the school and I are working at getting some local university professors on board. I've introduced him to several math phd's the last year and a half or so, and he was lucky to be invited to help in an NSF grant project with UIC! It seems math will take him places. :-)

Thank you all again!