Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy Stanford-Binet L-M, and school enrichment question

I'm toying with the idea of finding a tester in our area who still does the Stanford-Binet L-M, just to get a better feel of where ds is ... I guess I'm still questioning the need for fighting the school for accommodation for ds5, as they've refused to do any accommodation for him outside of "his level" DRA reading group (which is a gross underestimate according to his WIAT GE). Has anyone here done the WPPSI or the WIAT, and gone on to do the SB L-M? Was it helpful for your dc/your planning? Worth the effort? How do I even find someone who will do it? We went to the only tester in our state listed on the Hoagies site to do the WPPSI and the WIAT; would she possibly be a resource to find someone who would do the SB L-M?

Also, since the school has refused accommodation for maths based on ds's MAP achievement testing (again, a gross underestimate in my opinion, and I'm 100% sure I'm right), I have a possible solution. Do you think the school would allow me to send enrichment sheets for ds to do during math time if he's finished the work provided? I've gotten the 1A Singapore Maths workbook, which ds could breeze through, and I'm perfectly willing to get him more as he finishes. If I provided those worksheets as enrichment during schooltime, do you think the school would go for it? Or do you think I'd be wasting my time? Has anyone had any experience sending their own enrichment material to school? I can't decide if this is a good idea or not a good idea at *all*. I'm perfectly happy to work with him at home on it, I just hate to have him be at school all day and then insist that he do more work when he gets home, and this seems like a good middle ground.

I am still planning on sending my "Move our kid up in math or else" letter in January, just after the break so it's not lost in a sea of mail for the principal. And I'm waiting with bated breath to hear back from Davidson, as we applied last month.

Thoughts? TIA!

How's your relationship with the teacher? Will she "get it," or will such help from home on math assignments seem to her to be an imposition (or a no-confidence vote on her, or whatever other negative thing...)? To me, it seems perfectly smart and helpful for you to send in appropriate work so she doesn't have to find it, but then I'm not the teacher in the room with your child, so what I think doesn't matter one whit.

I'm going to read the comments on the SB L-M with interest, though I have no help for you there, beyond that I would think your previous tester might be able to steer you in the right direction. It's at least a logical starting point. I've often wondered if the L-M might be useful in our case, but I've never been sure enough to seek it out. It's what I was tested on when I was a kid, so seeing how DS6 did on it might give me a better feel for where he's really functioning, comparatively speaking, particularly since he and I seem wired somewhat similarly.

Babbling now...Anyway, I'm glad you asked!

I've been thinking about you as the Davidson notification date draws nearer for you. Fingers crossed! Not for nuthin', but your son sounds like a shoo-in to me. I hope I'm right.

My daughter is working on the Continental Mathematics League Books as extra math excercises. They are great and she thinks they are fun.

I would approach the teacher carefully. You really want her on your side. Perhaps you should ask her what she thinks about the worksheets and see if it would be helpful to her if you brought them.

Kriston -- See, the teacher's the thing. She seems to recognise that he's bright and is giving him "enrichment" worksheets -- word problems on the order of "Jane has 17 apples and gives 9 of them to John. How many apples does Jane have left?" He get those right, of course, but I'd rather see him on a progressive accelerated plan than getting random arithmetic problems, kwim? And since they're not offering to do it, I was wondering if it might be beneficial to steer them in the right direction. I guess it does depend on how I approach it ... just wondering if anyone had any "that's a horrid idea!" gut reactions.



As for that ... I hope you're right, too! Given his WIAT scores and near-hit WPPSI (148 plus ceilings), I'm hoping he'll be accepted, but I'm still worried. After reading this board (which I discovered about a week or so before sending in his app and didn't even consider asking for advice, duh), I don't think I did him justice in the essay section -- some of the kids here make him sound downright average (or at least almost). I think he comes off sounding bright, but not necessarily PG. And I think I focused on some of the wrong stuff. So I'm hoping his test scores plus a few of my comments will carry him. The thing is, I'm sure the intellect is there, but he doesn't necessarily have the drive to learn that a Ruf Level 5 kid would have -- certainly Level 4, but I don't know if that will do it. I would really, *really* love some help figuring out what the heck to do with him, as homeschool is just not an option for us.

Ugh. Ever wish you had a "normal" kid? Or at least a "garden variety" gifted kid? I tested MG on the SB as a child, so I'd really like to see where ds falls in comparison to where I was. I know I was reading almost on par with him at that age (perhaps a bit behind, but my interest was higher from what I recall), but he's ahead of where I was on maths. So it may be morbid curiosity on the SB L-M, but I feel it would be helpful. I have a PG cousin (180 on the SB L-M), and knowing that he could have scored in my Benjy's range on the WPPSI makes me even more curious to know where Benj would fall.

I guess I'm *still* looking for confirmation -- having applied to Davidson with a hope of getting in, how pathetic is that?

Mia,

I just sent you a PM.

Incog

This discussion has peaked my interest. Here is an interesting article I found regarding the SB-5. Neither of my children have taken this test and I really don't have an opinion either way. Just thought this article gave a colorful description of the test. Enjoy:

http://nswagtc.org.au/info/articles/Smith_Stanford%20Binet%205.PDF

Mia-

I can understand your curiosity. Outdated and questionable as it is, the LM is the only test that really opens up to show the differences among EG-PG kids. Current tests are like the stick to ride the rollercoaster at the amusement park. "Yup, you're tall enough..."

Only one of my kids was tested on the LM. His score was quite high, and it helps *me* to see how different he is, much more clearly than the 160 GAI he had on the WISC. I don't know how confident I would be about sharing it with anyone in a school for advocacy though, as it does have a tarnished reputation.

I did not seek the LM for my other children, as now that I have the score for one, I can extrapolate for the others based upon their relative strengths and weaknesses, and their scores on more modern tests. I suppose I could really get into it as far as guesstimating subtest scores, but I haven't gone that far.

I have a friend in the Chicago area. If you like, I can ask her if there is a tester she recommends. I am not certain if her children have taken the LM, but she might be a good source of information nonetheless. PM me if you want.

I am very new to Singapore Math, but 2 weeks in eith DS7(1st grade doing 2A) playing around I'm very impressed! They are really laid out so he can jump right in and feel very confident(and he is typically not a super confident kid) and is breezing through the exercises with no encouragement or intervention.

I am also fighting an internal battle over whether or not to get DS further tested. He scored above a PR 99 on the NNAT in kindergarten and he did hit the ceiling on the test. The "numbers geek" in me would love more data. But the longer I wait, the less compelled I feel to do it. As time marches on, it becomes more obvious with what we're dealing with, and I'm feeling less like the need to get an exact number to go with it. I know it certainly wouldn't help our school situation. They don't even care about the GT test THEY gave. We could potentially apply to DYS if DS was tested, but that doesn't seem like enough reason to go spend the money. We actually live quite close to Dr. Ruf (http://www.educationaloptions.com/), and I would just LOVE to have her get into DS's psyche just because I know she is so great in this arena.

But unless we see a real compelling reason to get him further tested (i.e. an opportunity for easier acceleration or entry into a gifted school, or even perhaps helping out DH's gifted denial!), we'll probably pass. I also was never tested as a child, so I have no number to compare it to! That would be interesting ... I guess I have no advice - just commiserating.

I'm glad Singapore Math is working well for you, Kim.

Mia:


It sounds to me like a conversation with the teacher is in order and probably won't be badly received if you use a gentle touch. She seems like she's not the sort to go ballistic if you begin a conversation. We had one teacher who was very open to such conversations, and one who took even the slightest question personally. Yours sounds like the former rather than the latter.

Maybe you could say you've come across something to make her job easier that you'd like to share with her, since you know teaching your DS is an added challenge for her and you have SO appreciated her efforts, rather than just flat-out asking her to use the workbook? (or something like that?)

I dunno though. I feel like I'm really bad at this advocacy stuff! I fear my "gentle touches" come off as manipulative and my normal approach is too bull-in-the-china-shop. I'm definitely an acquired taste...

Oh, and I know exactly what you mean about the LM! It's not so much that we want/need/care about that high score. That's just a meaningless number. It's context that we need, and I wonder if using the same yardstick that was used on me--flawed as it is--might help me make sense of DS's abilities. I could see where he is in relation to me, and that would help it all to make more sense.

Maybe instead of giving our DSs the LM, perhaps you and I just need to take the WISC now! LOL!

This sounds like a very good idea. Since she prepares extra material for him anyway she may find this very helpful. Have you checked the supplementary material for Singapore math? Challenging Word Problems 1 or Primary Math Intense Practice 1. I just looked at their sample pages and some of the problems are similar to what his teacher uses but they seem to go father. I would think she may like it.

I wouldn't bother with the test unless you want to get better idea about his abilities. The school already saw his IQ and achievement tests and I don't think one extra IQ test would make any difference not to mention that it's not really a popular test these days. I would expect the schools to care more about the achievement test than the IQ test though. Wait for Davidson and see if he gets in and what they suggest.

I keep telling myself that it better work this way. I still have a few more questions to go on the DYS application (should be doing it right now) and cannot come up with any reasonable answers.

Hi Mia,
I think asking for a meeting to show the teacher the worksheets your DS has done, and the ones still availible to do, is quite reasonable - but no garentees how it will turn out. I'm glad that "or else" letter is in the works.

As for understanding your child better - that's a worth goal. I would wait to see if you get into YSP first, because there is lots of resource for this task that you don't have to pay for. You can ask the family consultant and the other parents on the emial lists. Another possible source of information is that frustrating MAP test, although I hope that by the time you get that information, you can just check off the list, "I know he knows this, I know he knows that!"

I don't remember who did your other testing, but see if you can get some of the information you really want from the folks who did those tests. What one would really like is a list of subjects and skill, and a grade level scale of what the child already knows, and what they are ready to learn. If you find anything like that - please let me know! Until then you must find out the 'scope and sequence' information for your particular district, and painstakingly seek to observe what your child knows and is ready to learn in all those areas.

good luck,
Grinity

Thank you for telling me. I had no idea. Where would I see the blinking envelope? I run Firefox with blocked pop ups in case it matters. I actually thought that I had PM tied to my e-mail but I just checked and it looks like it's not even possible on this board or I just don't see it.

Thanks for the PM. You have a point. I'll reply after the kids are in bed.


I like your thinking. May be I should just wrap it up tonight and be done with it.

Thank you for all the weigh-ins!

To make myself clear, the SB L-M would be for my own benefit; since his current school doesn�t care about his current test results, I don�t expect they�d care if I came back with a paper that said he had two heads that were both 200+ IQs! It�s more that, as gratified says, I�d like to know whether with his WPPSI scores he�s 1/1000, 1/10,000, or 1/20,000. I�m pretty sure he�s closer to the 1/1000 level, but knowing where he falls would give me a little more drive to decide whether a grade skip is truly called for.

The other thing is that people don�t understand that you can�t get amazing numbers on the newer IQ tests and are still looking for those 170s and 180s. It�s frustrating when people think, �Oh, 148 isn�t that high� when it truly is. But even the school doesn�t seem to understand what his numbers mean, and it�s possible (though unlikely) that an older, more familiar scale would have more impact. Still, the SB L-M would be for my planning benefit. I don�t think I�ll actually do it, but I�m still pondering.

Dottie: I haven�t given up on school yet, and I�m cautiously hopeful. His father wants to sit down for one more meeting with the principal before we send out letter. I, however, don�t see the benefit in this; she�s already said no once, and her knee-jerk reaction is going to be no again. I�d rather avoid that and send the letter, so at least she�d have to think about it for a while. I�ve agreed to set up a meeting to sit down with her, explain our position, and give her our letter at that meeting. Anyone else have any input on this? We�re asking for first-grade math pull-outs and a start to the Iowa Acceleration Scale per the letter I posted a few weeks ago.

Kriston: The teacher is an interesting case. This is her first year as a K teacher, but she�s taught first grade before. She�s said several times that academically, he�s certainly ready for first grade or higher, but his �organizational� skills aren�t there. And what even more interesting to me is that she�s gotten quieter and quieter in our meetings as the semester has progressed � which makes me think that she is starting to agree with me and ex-h but doesn�t want to say it when the principal is against acceleration. In any case, for right now, I think we�re going to work at home with the Singapore Maths (which I�m really liking too) with a reward for finishing the books. I know he could finish this 1A one in about 3 days without any real effort, so we�ll employ a little bribery to get him to get him going. I bet he could be through the 2B by the end of the school year at least, because he knows it � just not in the format they�re asking. It�s about teaching directions and such, not the actual math.

Grinity: That�s a good idea, to wait to hear from DYS before pursuing the SB L-M, and I would probably do that anyway since we�ll hear back in the next few weeks. I�ve looked at scope and sequence (or at least general curriculum, is that the same?) for his district, and I believe he�s at least at the second-grade level with a few holes here and there.

Anyway, thanks again, all. I love having a community that I can bounce these ideas off of! To start, no one else that I know would have the slightest clue what I was talking about if I said SB L-M!

Hi Mia!
Sounds like you are on the right track. Meet before letter, or letter before meeting, whatever - as long as it's soon. Try to give way on the small things. You can also bring the letter to the meeting, distribute it to all, and read it aloud.

I'm a little confused by the above. Are you saying that if your kid is 'really' 1/1000 you'd be less likely to push for the skip and if the kid is 1/10,000 then you'd be more likely? LOL!

Personally I'd be more likely to push for a full grade skip for a 1/1000 kid because then they could pass for MG, and have a that coveted 'normal childhood' while a 1/10,000 kid is really going to need so much more I might get overwhelmed and give up!

Not really I guess, but I am having that 'what am I reading?' feeling. I'll try to be clear. It's only LOG up to a point. After 1/1000 rarity, any gradeskip might help, but it's the personality and the school fit that really determine if the gradskip is needed.

Anyway, good luck, I'm glad we're all in this together!
Grinity

Sigh, yes, I guess that is what I was saying ... but not that I wouldn't try for that grade skip anyway. I guess I've heard "We get kids like this all the time" so often lately that, once again, I'm starting to doubt myself. I need to knock that off and just go for it all out, because I think he needs it.

But that's the thing, though -- does he *need* it? Would he live if he doesn't get grade skipped? Sure. He'd probably be just fine. Would he be challenged with his schoolwork? No. Would he learn good study habits? No, probably not, though he still might. Do I think it'd be better to skip him? Absolutely. Do I think he'd socially and emotionally do great with a skip? Yep, I do.

But I'm not convinced that it's the only way to educational fulfillment. Maybe that's why I'm looking for more confirmation that he really is that out there with the SB L-M. I think he is, and his WPPSI and WIAT results seem to confirm that. So I should probably just leave well enough alone and go with what we've got, which is nothing to sneeze at.

As for the "normal childhood" thing -- I was skipped and I had a "normal" childhood, so that's the least of my concerns. I strongly feel that "normal" childhood has more to do with the child and how their social skills are than it does with any skips, per se.

I love journaling, but isn't that what the archives of this forum are for? So we can look back at our own tormented musings?

tee-hee-hee!

Hi Mia,
We spent over $1000 total on 2 rounds of testing (SB5 and Wisc-IV) in which DS hit ceilings and the tester said the numbers were clearly underestimates. It was really very dissatisfying. i really wanted that big number out of the LM, but I'm over it now, because I don't think that would really solve anything anyway because of all the problems with the test and because at >12 he's probably too old anyway. Nonetheless, I continue to crave knowing exactly where DS "fits."

But, frankly, I get more out of this forum than I ever will out of a number. I also found reading Deborah Ruf's book helpful and I am looking forward to reading the book: Exceptionally Gifted Children by Miraca Gross. Reading stories of kids like mine, has been the best therapy for me. I remember reading the chapter on level 4 kids in Ruf's books and just feeling my whole body and spirit relax--"Ah, now this is my life!" I think the stories about the kids speak to me way more than any number!

Okay, strong opinion alert:

Mia, here's what I think you should take into consideration before going into the meeting with DXH and the principal again.

You're hearing a lot of "we've got lots of/we've seen lots of kids like this before.

IMHO, I feel the administration at school is attempting to manage your expectations. I think they would say this to you even if they clearly realize there is no other child in his grade/school that appear to have his capabilities/needs.

Even if I'm wrong, I don't feel it matters how many children with higher educational needs they have. In fact, it kind of makes your case for you that they should be doing something different. Then they can accomodate your child as well as this unusually large group of brilliant children they supposedly perceive they have.

But that's not what I would say in the meeting. The bottom line is you are the parent of your own child and that is who the meeting is about. Superfluous folktales of the many other genuis children only are affective in minimizing your child's needs and I would steer them away from that line of thinking quickly.
Ex: That's great to hear the DS will have many peers here, however, I'm here to represent DS, I'm sure those other children's parents are quite capable handling their own child's academic needs. What I see is the real question is; What material is a kindergartener/first grader expected to know to graduate to the next grade. Does DS already know this/has DS already mastered this material? You can say this carefully, in a friendly manner and still not come off as overly assertive.

Your school definately has concrete parameters of what each child needs to know in order to be promoted to the next grade. If they are being vague about those parameters, I feel it is because they have already made the decision they don't want to skip for whatever reason. Try to ask specific questions and write them down so you can remember them before the meeting.
There are so many more people on this board who have better advice than I do so maybe others can pipe in.

Try to treat it as a business meeting, I know that sounds weird. There is nothing more personal than your child. But, the principle has no emotional attatchment to your or any other child, so it really is a "business" meeting to them.
Calm, state the case, friendly but not overly emotional.

Lastly, if DS is happy and doing okay, don't feel you need to borrow trouble. It's easy to read these boards and become aware of possible problems down the road. But if isn't problematic right now, know you can handle anything that comes up, as it comes up. KWIM?

So, good luck!!!!!

Incog

Clearly your son's scores say that he could easily handle a skip or 2 or 3, academically. But the decision to skip is way more than whether one can handle it academically. As I have said, I was skipped, and it provided little challenge academically but it was socially disruptive. My son (in 6th) just took a practice ACT and those scores show he has higher scores than the average entering freshmen at many mid-tier colleges. But he is not skipped, nor have we seriously considered a skip. His school is open to subject accelerating and he has many friends and activities he loves that he does not want to disrupt. It is not a great school (by the numbers), but they have been great to him!

In my mind, you skip a child because there is a problem. I am constantly looking for problems, but we haven't had any we have needed to solve by skipping. Others have not been as lucky with their schools, or have kids that have a personality that would thrive on skipping. Or they really need it to stay engaged. For them, it's a good solution.

So I guess what I'm saying is that you son has the numbers to be able to handle the skip academically, but how does everything else stack up? Are there things in the school that you'd hate to have him miss out on a year of? (DS had the most fabulous PE teacher you could imagine and I hated the idea that he'd miss a year of that. Through my childhood, I remember wondering what I missed by never going on the first grade field trip, myself). Basically, if you skip, you are making a trade. Is the trade worth it? For some it is, other it isn't. But those answers don't come from the numbers.

How are you feeling about it, Dottie? What's running through your mind right now?

If I don't hear back from you before then, all the best to you! I hope it goes swimmingly!

You sound like you're ready!

I hope it is friendly and productive and painless.

Yes - good luck Dottie! Looking forward to the update.

Mia - on the "We have MANY highly gifted kids in this school comment". Our school also uses this comment with much frequency. I think what they mean (in our case anyway) is they have many moderately gifted kids. After volunteering in DS7s' 1st grade class for a couple months, this is really obvious. And many MG kids are fine at grade level. Had I not been volunteering, I would have believed this comment or felt empowered to do anything. I'm not sure if you said you've done this, but if you can spend any time in the classroom, I highly recommend it. It really has been a wake up call. Anyway - don't let that comment from them deter you! I know our school just lumps all GT kids together.

kimck-no disrespect, truly: Our principal uses that comment as well. In fact, another parent and I have compared notes, he pretty much has a set speech that he uses with parents of gifted kids.
I still believe it's used as an attempt to manage parent's expectations. It's not personal. Think of the school in terms of a business. The principal is the C.E.O. who has to make decisions on how to allocate resources. It wouldn't be possible or even appropriate for that principal to be as vested in your individual's child education as you are. His job is to take care of all the students. In fact, I will go so far as to say his/her main responsibility is the bottom third, especially if they aren't meeting minimum standards. However, a great principal will attempt to meet all the needs of different students and I see our principal attempting to do this. There are things the school can do. Things they can't. There are also things they can do and are probably not inclined to. It's our job as parent of the child to figure it out. Think of these meetings as a chess match.

On that point, Dottie---You Go Girl!!!!!!
Good luck, stay strong and do not allow them to manage you. From reading posts it appears that you know the laws involved and probably have a pretty good feel for what they can and cannot do.
I read a previous post where someone implied that you do not have to agree to anything at the meeting and I think that is key.
Looking forward to some good news!!!!!

Incog

That's hilarious, Kriston! It hits close to home because I have a regular "May 2002 Babies" board where I've been posting with the same core group of 10-12 women since we were pregnant. We recently switched board hosts and were able to access the old board for several months ... but when I tried to go back to the "old board" to look at milestones for DYS, I found I couldn't access it anymore! I almost had a coronary when I realized that *all* that journaling that I hadn't thought to copy/paste anywhere was *gone*. It still stings, actually ... there was four years worth of milestones/cute moments on that board, now gone.



That's exactly it, acs, and we got the same "clear underestimate" talk from our tester. Obviously, it doesn't *really* matter where he falls as long as he's being provided for. I guess I'd just have a clearer idea of what "provided for" meant if I had a more accurate estimate of where he actually fell. It's pretty clear, though, that I probably won't *get* that estimate from straight IQ testing.

Also, acs, can I ask what grade you skipped? Mine was second, where they were mostly teaching reading; I was teased as a child, but more for funny clothes/chubbiness than for braininess. Ds won't have those issues (it appears at this point); at least his clothes aren't horrid! Sad, but it *does* matter. And socially he's on par. All of the research I've read has found that skipping rarely makes a difference socially -- either the kids stay on par with where they have been, or they actually do better when closer to their social peers. B is socially adept, especially with adults, and older kids usually get a kick out of him (though, granted, that is usually much older kids). Bottom line -- I'm not worried about him socially, and I think he'll adapt to pretty much whatever group of kids he's with.

I also think of my PG cousin, who had social issues, Aspergers, etc., who now at the age of 24 says he wished he *had* been skipped -- his parents opted for the subject acceleration route and he wishes that he had been skipped several times. Looking at my B, I honestly can say that a skip is really the best thing for him in my mind.

Personally, I'm looking to skip to *avoid* problems, not wait for them to arise in the first place. It's like preventative medicine -- there's something I can do to prevent a problem, and I'll take that opportunity if I possibly can. I know a lot of people have different ideas on that, but that's where I stand on the issue of "waiting until there's a problem"; I'd rather prevent a problem from forming than have to dig out of one.

Incog: Thank you for the advice, and I will certainly use it. I'm planning to make a list of questions and "rehearse" with dh, and I'll work on my "business meeting" ways.

Dottie: Good luck tomorrow! You'll have to let us know how it goes.

Hey, Mia, I just wanted to say that I know what you mean about not waiting for a problem if you can see it coming on the horizon and can avoid it altogether. I wish I had acted before the school year started for my DS6. It worked out okay, but emergency measures are never as good or as effective as well-researched and well-planned educational decisions.

I guess what I'm saying (FWIW...) is that if you can find a good fit that will cultivate that love of learning, then I don't see anything wrong with matching a solution to the child before a problem occurs. As long as you and the school are flexible if that solution winds up being a poor fit, then it makes perfect sense to me to act preemptively. Good luck with your efforts to get the skip. Keep us posted!

I skipped first. I had been very happy in kindergarten and had lots of friends who I got along well with. I was reading (I'm told) at about a 4th grade level when I got to first. I remember enjoying my first few weeks of first grade, but apparently the first grade teacher wanted to teach kids to read and since I already knew how, she thought I should go to second. My best friend and neighbor was in second so everyone thought I would be fine there. My receiving teacher was fabulous--warm and supportive. My friend came down on the day I moved classes and helped me carry my stuff to my new class; I got the desk next to her. It all seemed like a good set-up. But it turned out that my best friend was my "home" best friend and that she had a whole different group of friends at school who were very different than me. Now it became her job to manage her two lives and her two sets of friends. I think it was very hard on her--the poor girl was only 6 after all. I definitely felt that I no longer fit with my first grade friends and my second-grade best friend clearly did not want me hanging around her and her "cooler" friends at school. I started crying a lot and acting out on the playground. If anyone noticed, they never said anything. I never told my mother because I did not want her to feel bad.

I also remember the hope I felt that I would fit in academically in second grade, but after 2 weeks I was at the top of the class, displacing the highest kids in second. One of them never forgot it, and still had hard feelings at our 10 year reunion (I know this because his wife told me!).

None of this was probably any more traumatic than it would have been to move schools. By high school I had made my own friends and was quite active in various organizations. But skipping was hard and I never really grew to like that I was skipped. I do like my life now; I would not have the husband or life I have without my skip. So I am at peace with it. But I did get a knot in my stomach just now as I described the feelings I had back then; the 6 year old is still in there.

I have read all the data about skipping, and I do think there is a place for it for some kids. But I do know several who were skipped and did not like it. When you read that *most* kids do well with a skip, that means that there are some who did not.

Ah ... so it seems that the "best friend" issue was big for you -- did you feel guilty, it sounds like, for your best friend's tough time? Were you ever asked if you should be moved? Did they take your opinion into account? I think that can make a big difference.

I thought it was pretty cool that I was skipped, and very glad to do it -- to get out of that environment was heaven on earth. I, too, was quickly at the top of my new class, but at least it wasn't the top of the super-SUPER easy material!

I guess it all comes down to individual circumstances ... Of course not all kids do well with a skip. But I have my own set of experiences, I have my older sister's experiences (also skipped second), I have my cousin's experiences (wishes he'd been skipped), and there's plenty of research supporting acceleration. Certainly personal anecdotes will be different ... but on the whole, it seems that acceleration is in *most* EG/PG children's best interests.

We can agree to disagree ... and don't think I haven't given this a ton of thought. In the end, I, as the parent of my own particular child, don't want to wait for a problem to arise before being proactive about it. I think waiting for a problem would be worse *for him* than doing something prophylactically.



And this? Seriously. Get over it, man! It was second grade! Jeesh.

Knowing that you like a lively discussion, I will partially disagree with you. I was skipped preemptively; the only one having a problem was my teacher who didn't know what to do with me. Before the skip I was very happy, had lots of friends, and was not bored. The result was that once I was skipped and things were not going well for me emotionally in second, I always imagined that back in my old grade things would have been hunky-dory. The first grade I skipped and the class I left behind were sort of a golden age or shangra-la, a place where life was good. And that's where the anger and resentment came from.

I wonder, now, if they had waited until, say, January before I was skipped, if that would have given me time to get bored and frustrated enough to actually want to be skipped. That would have probably made a big difference in my attitude.

We waited until DS was pretty frustrated with math before we subject accelerated him. Now he is taking algebra (in 6th) and there is a lot of homework. when he starts to complain, I just say, "Well, we can always just put you back into 6th grade math if you don't like this." And he quiets right down and gets to work. He knows what his options look like and he chose this. I did not know what my options looked like and I did not choose to be skipped and that, I think, is part of what made it so hard for me.

I haven't figured out how to double quote, so I'll deal with both quotes together. I don't think we are disagreeing. I think the skip question is totally individual. I will say, though, that I carry some scars from my skip and that when I read about how well kids do with skips, part of me just want to shout, "Hey, look at me! My story is real TOO!" I don't want to take away something that has worked for others and is a good option for some. Skips can be good or bad and kids adapt. I adapted. You are right, though, I was not consulted. I was given a night-before opportunity to veto and that was all.

This guy (whose wife informed me of the resentment) was actually a friend and still is, actually (otherwise, I doubt the wife would have shared). My point was, I guess, that no one ever really forgot--I never felt like I totally blended. You will probably point out that with my IQ I was never going to blend in anyway, and, of course, you'd be right. But I did not realize that until I got to college.

Again, Dottie, Good luck, have a great meeting.

Thanks for all the personal viewpoints on skipping. Sharing your viewpoints and feelings on the experience is very helpful to others struggling with the decision. I know I've found it helpful.
I'm one who wished I had been skipped. I guess I actually had a self-induced skip when I refused to go to high school for a year, but still graduated on time!
DD7 is clearly mis-placed in second grade, but she is adamant that she doesn't want to go up a grade. This is based mostly on not wanting to leave her friends. The interesting thing is she admits she is very frustrated with how easy the work is, mainly she seems to have trouble with the repetiveness of the stuff she already knows.
For a second we thought we'd pursue the skip anyway, I mean, she'd probably eat Hershey bars for breakfast, lunch and dinner if we let her make all her own decisions.
However, we decided it wouldn't work out well. After reading the posts I feel better about this decision, for now.
We'll see what happens going forward.

No, I did not feel guilt then and I don't now. Most of my life, I just "knew" in a gut-feeling way, that skipping had been a bad thing for me. It was only when confronted in the last few years with the data that skipping was "good" that I came up with the best-friend theory to make sense of why my experience deviated from the data. But the BF theory makes sense and I do now feel sorry for my friend.

She never articulated the resentment per se. She also never clearly articulated the "rule": we could be friends at home, but I was not to hang with her and her friends at school. It became clear, though, that that was The Rule and I respected it. We remained friends at home until middle school and I have many fond memories of playing in the woods, riding bikes, baking in the easy-bake oven, swimming and practicing cheer-leading moves with her (I even have a permanent scar from one of the moves!).

This is a very interesting discussion! I certainly value the opinions of everyone and please don't think I'm discounting your thoughts. :-)

I wonder if the other thing that may have made a difference for my skip situation was moving. We moved frequently when I was a small child; I was in one school for K, another school (and state) for first and third, a new school (and state) for 4-8, and a new school for high school. I wonder if watching all your "old" friends from K-1 made you realize more what you were missing -- or feel like you were missing something? That "what might have been" feeling.

So that's one thing -- there's no way B will be in this school district past, say, third grade. Probably we'll be moving next year, possibly the year after, but it *will* happen, and soon. So at that point, it'll be less of a "discussion point" for kids around him -- they probably won't even realize for a while (unless ds opens his big mouth, which he probably will). And he won't have to watch all of his K friends get buddy-buddy for long. Plus, he doesn't have many close friends at his school; there are maybe one or two kids he'll miss, but not for long. Quite honestly, they're very replaceable for him right now. And he has older friends from his after-school program that he attends 2-3 days a week. So that's on our side.

*And* he's asking about being in third grade -- a good sign he'd be receptive to a move, though probably disappointed it wouldn't be to third! :-)

I guess my feeling is that he's *so* far ahead of his class now, he's receptive to the idea -- enthusiastic, even -- and I do believe that he'll need it in the long run. I'd rather start the process sooner rather than later, because it's clear that he's not going to learn anything in K or even first grade. Moving him will get him closer to where he's at.

As parents, we have to make the decisions that seem right to us at the time, after examining all the angles and weighing the pros and cons. No doubt you're parents weren't out to ruin your school experience! Certainly my parents made decisions that I wouldn't/won't make. My skip, luckily, was not one of those decisions -- I'm thankful they did it and I'd certainly do it again in a heartbeat. And yes, that does affect the decisions that I make on behalf of ds, though it's in no way the *only* affecting factor in this situation.

Oh good, I'm glad I made someone feel better. LOL!

Dottie--thanks for your support! It was actually hard to dredge up some of those yucky feelings. My hope is that it is helpful to some and not too troublesome to others.

I had originally vowed not to even mention my feelings about my own skip on a gifted board. I can see how much everyone agonizes over the decisions they make for their kids and I didn't want anyone who had skipped their child to worry any more than they already had.



Anyway, I think the social stuff is big, especially for girls. It is not about being teased; it was about losing key relationships that mean a lot to girls that age. If you don't have those key relationships in the grade you are leaving, then it's easier to imagine it will go well.

DS, who is in 6th and goes to algebra with advanced 8th, told me last night from a social perspective that he would rather be with the 6th graders who both tease him AND enjoy him than be with the eighth graders who do neither. He feels like he is a real part of his 6th grade class and just tolerated in the 8th class. He's fine with being with them one class a day, but he would not want to be there all day. He and I had not talked about my skip much before, but I really thought his perspective on a potential skip for him (he's been offered one)summed up my feelings about my own skip.

Hi Mia,
It looks like our posts crossed. I completely agree that our circumstances are/were different in many ways. It sounds like he's a better candidate for a skip than I was.

acs -- No, it's really helpful to read your experiences! Do keep sharing, because it ensures that parents examine all angles.

As for your ds ... I wonder if his perspective comes *from* being "just subject accelerated" as opposed to full skipped? I know that I, for one, never felt like a younger kid with older kids; I was one of my class, and that was that. I honestly felt more "out of place" as a subject-accelerated first grader than I did as a third grader. I didn't think of it in terms of, "I should be in second grade" ... I was in third grade, I was a third grader, and that was that. My closest friend was a girl who was in third grade already when I was skipped, though we were in different classes; we didn't have the same issues you and your friend did, likely because we *weren't* in the same class.

So much of the skip equation is personal to each child and each situation. That's why it's so hard to make these decisions -- you never know how it will turn out for your individual child! I think that my positive skip experience and that of two of my sisters (my youngest sister skipped 8th grade) has certainly made me more open to skipping than your average person-on-the-street, even if that person has a gifted child. It takes a lot of the mystery out of the equation for me, since I've gone through it and have experienced first-hand the goods and the bads. Luckily for me, my experience was, overall, very positive.

I'm sorry that your skip was not so positive ... that really stinks, since it is completely an elective decision in most cases. It's hard to feel like you don't fit in, especially as a child. I certainly still did not "fit in" in grade school, for a number of other reasons, after we moved when I was in fourth grade ... that was due to a number of other issues. But I still know the feeling, and it's not a good time. I'm truly am sorry you went through that.

Agree agree agree!!!!!!

Thanks for both of your viewpoints. In some ways I experience mom guilt because I am not pushing for the skip. On paper, aptitude and skill are reasons that just beg to skip. My gut is telling me it's not right for this girl right now.

I do indeed! Good on ya'!


I would agree with you wholeheartedly that this is very probably the root of the problem with your skip. I would never support a skip for the sake of a teacher's convenience! Oh my!

My point is that if you can see that a *child* is going to have a bad fit, I don't think you have to wait until behavioral problems occur before you do something. (And I'm not suggesting that a grade skip is the only something that can/should be done.) We do this all the time as parents, don't we? We try to arrange to have our children's needs met so that there are no problems. We try to get him in the classroom of the teacher who will be best for him. We try to get her in that summer enrichment program so she's not bored all summer. Why should other interventions (including but not limited to grade-skipping) necessarily be any different?

I was subject-accelerated two grades from the start of K. There was no time for boredom on my part to become behavioral or emotional problems. I walked across the playground into the main school building for 2nd grade reading on the first day of K. In arranging this intervention for me, my parents didn't wait for trouble, they prevented it. The writing was on the wall for me: I'd been reading books for roughly half my life at that point. Going back to learning letters would have made me miserable. My parents knew me and respected my needs enough to take preemptive action, and it worked in my case. In fact, I think their action probably made it so that a full grade skip was not strictly necessary, though I sometimes wonder if it would have been better for me (much as you wonder if it would have been better not to have been skipped, acs). Socially I was always much more comfortable with older kids.

But I digress...

I think that if Mia--and anyone else--can see that her child is likely to have problems in a regular class, then it's perfectly responsible to take action to prevent those problems.

My caveat that I'll add again is that with these kids it is always necessary to be flexible, but it is especially important to be flexible with a preemptive intervention. If it doesn't work as planned, then you have to find a way to fix it.

Since we're talking about it, I'm curious, acs...

May I ask: how do your parents remember those years? What do they have to say about their choice to grade-skip you? Why didn't they try something else with you when it became clear that you were unhappy? Did they not know how hard it was on you?

I've been wondering about that, since I think virtually all parents--certainly you, me, and everyone on this forum!--would advocate for a change if our kids were unhappy with an intervention. I find your parents' lack of action to be confusing, particularly since it comes on the heels of a grade-skip, the action biggie! Clearly your parents weren't uninvolved in your education. I guess I feel like I don't understand their part of the story.

I don't mean to pry, and I'm not judging. I just wonder about this every time it comes up in conversation, and I thought I should finally ask. I hope I don't offend by asking!

I'm not totally sure what happened on their side either, but I have some ideas.

I remember deciding that I did not want them to know I was having problems. I remember my mother asking me how it was going and me just blowing her question off. Six-year-olds are not entirely rational creatures and I don't really remember why I didn't want her involved but I do know I didn't. This may be what was happening in my mind: I wanted to handle it on my own; I didn't want my mom to feel bad; I didn't want to make a big deal of it; I didn't want to attract more attention than I already had; I liked my new teacher (more than the old one). In retrospect, I can say that I did not really want to go back to first, I just never wanted to have left it. Going back would have not been any better than staying in second; the damage was already done. How embarrassing to fail at a skip, especially after causing all that commotion by skipping!

The big question is how could my parents have missed the signs of my distress. Remember the biggest issue was my best friend. But she was still my home best friend so my mother would have seen us playing happily at our house most days after school. So there would have been no reason to suspect she wasn't the same at school; I'm sure I did not tell my mother about that problem. Also, I was alway high strung, perfectionistic, and cried a lot (even when I was happy in K). There may have been an increase in these symptoms, but I don't know how much more it would take to register. I know that my parents talked about my stress level with the 3rd grade teacher. Their conclusion was that I put a lot of pressure on myself, that it was intrinsic in my personality and that there was not much to be done except support and reassurance (which I think is true at least to a point).

Finally, remember that my parents were themselves blindsided by the skip. The teacher called my mother out of the blue and told her to get my eyes checked so they could go ahead with the skip. She was stunned; no one had mentioned a skip before that call. I think I was skipped within a week--the school did not want to wait at all. There was not plan B in place if the skip did not work out--no exit strategy. I have two older PG sibs who were not happy in school and I suspect my parents hoped that the skip would head off some of the problems they had had with them. (I think it is reasonable to consider the possibility that the skip did head off problems; I cannot be my own control group and we don't know what would have happened if I hadn't been skipped. All we know is that I did not like it and that it could have been handled more smoothely).

My mother and I have always been very close and I have rarely kept secrets from her, but I know I kept this from her as best a could. My mother is articulate and feisty. She lets no injustice go unconfronted. She was a regular fixture at the school, keeping teachings, administrators, etc in line. So I really think that had she known there was a problem and believed that there was even a slight hope of correcting the problem, she would have been all over it. So either she must not have known, not believed there was help, or respected that I wanted to handle on my own (and believed I could). More than 3 decades later she claims to have not felt the problem was very big--certainly that is what I wanted her to believe.

Makes perfect sense. Thanks for sharing that with me. I feel like I understand what happened in your case much better. I thought your parents were more involved in the skip than they were. I assumed teacher-initiated but parent-desired. Nope! (And I hope you didn't get the sense that I thought badly of your parents or something. I never did. You never seemed to blame them for your experience, so it was clear that they didn't "do this to you" in some way.)

I'm not sure what I would do if the school wanted a skip that I didn't advocate for! I've never imagined such a thing!

Anyway, now it all makes more sense to me. Hopefully I can learn from your experience and do better for my kids. Thank you for your story.

Truth be told, it's just the kind of thing I worry about with my kids (albeit without the unrequested grade-skip...). My children both like to please, and I worry that they might think they have to keep their unhappiness from me. I was actually kind of glad when DS6 acted out a bit in school when he was underchallenged, since it meant that he would not simply die a little inside every day without my knowing.

I'm so sorry you went through all that. And thanks for sharing it with all of us. I appreciate your input probably more than you realize..and I *adore* your willingness to keep the forum lively by debating with me from time-to-time!

Hi Acs,
Grade skipping has costs, that's for sure, but not getting needed accomidations has it's costs as well. I was 'early enteranced' and still bored in elementary school, and grew up hating that I was always the youngest and most physically awkward. I blamed it my not being in sync with the age mates on being younger. L O L! Once tracked middle school started I was suddenly popular, although I didn't learn how to learn until AP Calculus in senior year of High School,and can easily believe that bright underchallenged flunk out of college, because I had to do some major scrambling to get caught up. Lucky for me I used those social skills to get the help I needed.

It wasn't until I was able to observe my own son interact with his agemates, that I realized that being the youngest wasn't the actual source of all my difficulties, only a few, and that the path not taken would have had difficulties of it's own. One of the noted problems with grade skips, is that every difficulty the person ever has from then on tends to be attributed to the skip.

If I had a time machine, there are a lot of things I would be tempted to go back and change. Being early enteranced isn't one of them. Of course if you could offer me a school that understood the needs of young abstract thinkers who can't yet hold a pencil well, that's a whole 'nother story.

Love and More Love,
Grinity

Trinity,

I really think that being early entranced and being skipped are different issues. I lived in a small town and everyone knew I had been skipped. It was a big deal and it disrupted a number of my social relationships. That does not happen with early entrance or when the skip happens when moving between schools. It may not even be as much of an issue when the skip happens in a big school or when the child does not have close ties within the school. But my experience was very real and not just based on the fact that I was gifted.

acs,
I'm sorry to imply that your experience was not real! Opps!
I'm also sorry to imply that your expereince was 'just based on the giftedness itself.'

I agree that early entrance and skipping are quite different issues, and that grade skips are not positive - academically, socially, or both - in many instances. I'm really grateful that you have been willing to share, given the 'pro-acceleration' flavor of this forum. I hope that everyone who has had bad expereinces with full grade skips feels safe enough to post on the full range of their history.

Every situation is different, and every situation is complicated. I firmly believe that if we treat each other with respect, then we will be better able to make the best decisions we possibly can for our dear children. I do appologise that I have given you the feeling that you were being heard with less than the respect you deserve. Opps!

Thanks for catching me when I head off 'the path.' I do value you letting me know.

Smiles,
Grimity

And I never got to try a grade skip because my mother went to college at 16 and felt it was a mistake not to be repeated with me. So she took me out of the school where I sat in on the fourth and fifth classrooms for reading and math when I was in second grade and moved me to the school where my brothers were (mostly for convenience's sake). The new school wanted to skip me but my mother said no, and in essence, I repeated third and fourth grade. Whenever I said, but I read this book, the teacher would say you couldn't have because this is a third grade book and that was the end of that. So everyone's experiences are different, and I appreciate that. One of the nicest things about this forum is that there appears to be no judgment of each other, which is a very nice thing. But I do notice that for the most part, everyone seems to share similar opinions. Don't know if it's the group experience or coincidence, but it's very interesting, and from time to time, I stop myself and think, now wait a minute, does that make sense for us?

Sorry about the run-on sentences, but I'm typing on my phone in the dark. Anyway, just wanted to say yet again, what a nice and civil and considerate bunch of people you all seem to be. I'm very fortunate to have found this website and have benefited tremendously from your collective knowledge and experience. Thank you.

questions brings up an interesting point. We try to learn from our mistakes and not repeat them with our children, but maybe those things wouldn't be mistakes for our children.

My sister was in the same boat as acs. She skipped 3rd grade and went from being an extremely outgoing leader in her class to being a social outcast and complete misfit. We were in a rather small school where everyone knew everyone and the new girls in the 4th grade just weren't going to accept her in any shape form or fashion. Maybe if she hadn't been so social to begin with it wouldn't have bothered her but it was devastating for her to just be completely shut out with the others. My mother has always felt that it was the worst thing she could have done to let her skip, but we don't know what it would have been like if she hadn't of skipped. In fact "grade skipping" was pretty much a dirty word in our house and still is to my mom.

I've only been reading this forum for a few weeks but already ya'll have changed my opinion on grade skipping. It isn't a dirty word for everyone and I can see that it is greatly beneficial in some cases. But that doesn't negate my sister's or acs's experiences. It isn't always a good thing although it can be a good thing for some. I guess as questions pointed out, it needs to be an individual decision for each individual child for his/her own situation, preferably without the "baggage" we bring from our own childhood experiences. Probably impossible for that to ever happen, but maybe with all the information out here and all the different experiences/viewpoints to consider, people can try to make the best possible decision for their particular child.

I appreciate hearing all the different opinions so thank you to everyone for sharing them!!!

No problem. You were sharing your experience, which is real also. I just didn't want people to equate them. Your point I think is really helpful (that a certain amount of not fitting in is typical for HG kids regardless of their placement), it just wasn't the point I was trying to make and I didn't want mine to be negated.



I agree! I also agree with EandCmom that this forum has helped me see some really cool things about skipping that I had not considered before. I'm much more willing to see that good aspects than I was before adn I like having my mind and opinions stretched.

I have, however, felt that at times we get a little too pro-skip, probably because it feels so good to be with people who understand how atypical our kids are and recognize that skipping isn't always a bad thing. Also the bad skip stories have been used IRL to block parents from advocating for their kids, so by the time you get here, you've had enough of them. So I think this is (and should be) a safe haven for skippers. But I don't want the voices and experiences of those who were badly skipped to get lost.

My skip was badly handled in a lot of ways. I hope that my story will help people look realistically at their own situation and not assume that skips are always going to work out well, just because they do for many people.



Apology accepted. I obviously felt safe enough to share my experience in the first place. Which is weird because there may be thousands reading my story, but ah well. I really have hardly told anyone about my skip until I posted. But I guess when I did, it made me feel a bit vulnerable--it's still a pretty tender subject. On other subjects I can be pretty thicked skinned!

Cheers!

Thanks for sharing this! It's strange how much better I feel knowing that my experience was not completely unique. I think it's interesting that both of us were girls who experienced social consequences in a small school. I really think that the close-knit aspect was part of the challenge for me and your sister's story supports that. I wonder if this will turn out to be a recurring theme.


Ditto! Who knows, you may find that by sharing an unusual experience that you may connect with someone who shares your experience!

EandCmom--tell your sister "Hey" from me

I think one of the greatest things I've decided about grade-skipping as a result of this forum's influence is that any major adaptation needs to come with an exit plan. If grade-skipping or home schooling or early acceleration or gifted school or whatever isn't working, then there must be a plan B, and plan B must be carried out as soon as it seems necessary. Nothing should be "sprung" on a child, and we should not let our preconceived notions about these major adaptations to the "normal" educational path keep us from seeing what is going on with our particular children.

That's a very valuable lesson for me to learn for free, without actually having to screw up my own kids' lives to learn it, I think. For that, I am exceedingly grateful to all of you who have been my teachers!

You all rock!

I find it very interesting how many of us have skip stories in our families, considering what a hassle it is to be skipped! I wonder if it has gotten harder to skip over time, or whether our parents were such great advocates that so many of them were successful in securing acceleration for us (whether it turned out to be the "right" decision or was handled incorrectly). Any thoughts on that?

Also, today's the meeting day with B's principal -- we're going in to present our views one last time, and ask for at least pullouts to the first grade accelerated math program and the Iowa Acceleration Scale. Wish us luck! I'm going to post on the new board that Grin linked to for some last ditch efforts -- maybe I'll even get some expert opinions (though it's quite short notice).

Good Luck Mia! Take us all with you!
Smiles,
Grin

well, it's a BlackBerry - great for reading, emailing, and web surfing while DS falls asleep... Sort of like a Kindle and an itty-bitty book light wrapped into one. But for some reason, it's hard to go back and read and edit in the quick reply text box.

I do agree that it is interesting. My guess is that many folks find us, think we're nuts, and keep on looking for their just right spot on the Internet. I wish I could know what I would have thought of the talk here when my son was age 4 or 5! No Clue! Also, since this forum is run by the Davidson Program, I would guess that a bunch of us read "Genius Denied" on our way here, as I did, and already agreed with the 'pro-accleration flavor.'

Should you seek out opposing view points? Gosh, I have no idea! I guess I'd go back to Hoagiesgifted, and look from there. I do think it's important not to get carried away by the crowd.

Grins

No one I knew in either pre-k through high school OR college had been skipped to my knowledge. In our neck of the woods, grade-skips were as rare as hen's teeth. In fact, despite an active gifted support/enrichment group that my mom created from scratch--so I knew pretty much every GT kid in our large town/small city!--I was the only person I know of who was even subject accelerated out of the regular classroom. Beyond that, GT kids were handled solely through clustering and differentiation.


FWIW, it seems to me to be shared experience. I have been struck by how "weird" my experience with our DS6's schools seems to be in the "real" world, but how absolutely normal we seem here on this forum.

Of course, we forum-users are a self-selecting group, but I think the people here are accepting enough of differing views and experiences that we're not chasing away people who might have a different perspective. Witness ACS and E&CMom...and even me, really, since I came here quite scared of grade-skipping, though fearing that it was something we might *have* to do, whether I wanted DS6 to do it or not. I still have some concerns about it: sports participation (football) being my main one. But I feel like I've gotten a pretty balanced view of skipping from this forum, and I see it as a more viable option now than I did when I came here.

Here's an alternative: perhaps being able to see the joint experiences of a fairly large group of GT kids, certainly much larger than we'd see in the "wild" of our hometowns, has led us all to similar conclusions, rather than indicating that we all started at the same spot?

Just a thought...

Oh, and go get 'em, Mia!

When checking out our schools gifted program after GS8 was referred and accepted into it, I found links on the schools gifted website that link to Ohio's Department of Education website. ODE seems to take a very pro-acceleration view.
ODE's gifted link

I really love Ohio's legislation, but word I've overheard is that the local districts are still very 'in charge' of what goes on. Still I wish our state, ,or the Nation had something very similar.
Grinity

Yes, the state law in OH and reality often leave much to be desired.

The only mandate is for testing and GT ID...sometime. It's up to the schools how they test, when they test, and who qualifies as GT. No programs are required, no skips, no minimum scores...basically the schools currently just have to test for GTness; they do not have to do a single thing about the results of those tests!

It's supposed to get better. There's some new law coming in, I think. (I learn about it next week at a POGS meeting.) But for now, the ODE can put darn near anything on their website and it has basically no effect on the schools whatsoever.

I hear funding is also an issue, ie they can pass any legislation they want, but if the district doesn't have the cash to support it,,,,,,,,out of luck.

Yup. Unfunded mandates mean zilch, and GT in OH is essentially unfunded.

Back from our meeting (well, yesterday!)

It went quite well; I basically followed the format of the letter when telling her what we wanted. She agreed (obviously) that yes, the MAP is a test of what the child has been taught, not how the child learns, and that the test would only show what B already knows.

I think we'll be able to get him a trial period in the accelerated first-grade math group (which I think he'll probably really like), and I straight out told her we'd like to start the Iowa Acceleration Scale process now. She said start that process. I think she realized that we meant business.

She ended up pulling out the "Well, even if we skip now, there are often issues that show up down the road at adolescence" card -- ie, we shouldn't skip him now because then he'll be younger than his classmates as a teenager. Gasp! You know, I didn't quite realize that? :P I explained nicely that we'd deal with that as it came up.

The fact that her next argument is that the problem will be adolescence means she realizes that he's ready for something else now. She fully agrees that he's way beyond the K curriculum in both math and reading, so that's not the issue anymore, apparently. It's pretty hard to deny that.

She's going to get back to me in the next week or so, and then we'll schedule a meeting for the last week in January (probably, maybe earlier, maybe a bit later) to discuss what will be done. I told her that if he were going to start pullouts, we'd like to get this process going sooner rather than later.

So ... I think I was successful, unless she was just smiling and nodding. Hooray for me! We'll see what happens in the next few weeks. Even if we don't do a skip, I really, really want him in that math pull-out. I think he'd love it.

I know, right, Dottie? That what her comment said to me, too.

The other interesting exchange was about GE (which *you*, Dottie, educated *me* one! How's that for circular?). It went something like this:

Mia: From what we understand, the MAP measures what they've been taught, but doesn't necessarily test how they learn.
Principal: Yes. You had IQ testing done, and that's different. The MAP is an achievement test.

M: Well, actually, we had IQ and achievement testing done. His achievement scores put him in the 99.9th percentile for math. And his grade equivalents show him at the middle of second grade -- so if you gave a child in second grade the same questions he was given, he scored where the average second grader would score.
P: [makes a hemming-hawing sort of face]

M: Am I misunderstanding that? Please correct me if I am! I'd like to know as much as I can.
P: Well, it's more of a projection. We can't know for sure what every second grader is thinking, and this is more of an estimate.

M: Well, certainly ... so it's an estimate that he's thinking at the level of a second grader.
P: [more hemming and hawing faces] Well, it's just an ...

M: Estimate.
P: Well, yes.

WTH? Seriously. I think she's trying to get rid of me and realizing I'm not going to go away.

I hope.

Yes, but I'm willing to bet B will learn much more rapidly than the average second grader. We all know that, but don't expect Administrator to buy into it.
You're doing great Mia, don't let them off the hook. Keep plugging away if you think this is what B needs.

Well done, calm and professional. You're making your case based on the numbers and thats what they understand.

I

I love it Dottie! For the Grandchildren!

Mia - well done! Go after that subject acceleration ASAP. Admins can be tricky, and sometimes will try to win by delay, so keep your eyes on the main thing - getting those special learning needs accomidated and be the 'nice' by so squeaky wheel!

Yippee!
Grinity

Mia: You go, girl!

If I have to advocate, I want you to do it for me!

"Hello, I'm Kriston, and speaking for me will be my advocate, Mia. No, she's not my lawyer. She's just way better at this than I am!"

Great job Mia. Congratulations. I hope he will be in the 1st grade math soon. Time to talk to the 1st grade math teacher

LOL, Kriston -- I don't think you'd *really* want me! Though I'd probably do better with someone else's child, lawyer-like.