Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy red-shirting of gifted kids

We had DS4's parent teacher conference two weeks back and what came out of it left me wondering.
Since we haven't had DS tested, I am not sure if I understand his level of giftedness hence this post. On Ruf's level, he fits in level 4 or 5.
Now his teacher told us that he is very bright academically, but emotionally not mature enough so we should think of red-shirting him. As he is already reading (pretty much everything), writing, doing math, we are concerned if this is a good idea or not. We don't want him to get into trouble because of his emotional immaturity but at the same time we want him to be challenged academically.
Is redshirting of gifted kids a good idea, if they have a late summer birthday? What do you think?

Any chance you could negotiate redshirting him in the sense that he doesn't start school until a year later, but then starting a year up? I'd optimistically think that now might be a great time to discuss that with the school (but I'm from a different system, so don't take my word for it!)

Eek! I would be wary of "red shirting", if I understand that to be holding back a gifted child. Emotional sensitivity does not equal emotional immaturity. But like ColinsMum says - if he's not ready now, why not wait until mid-year and then start him in a higher grade? What does your gut say? Perhaps this school isn't the answer? Good luck... jojo

That's a great option if you can talk them into it. Even if he starts now, he is likely to find kindergarten boring. However, if it is a half day situation, it might be an easier transition than to jumping into all day 1st grade next year. I think that all day transition is tough for lots of kids.

I find these situations difficult. I know lots of boys held back in our area. All day kindergarten is pretty standard. And I also know several bright boys who were sent after just making the cut off that have had a couple very rough years behaviorally, but are well ahead of the curve academically. I have a son that missed the cut off by about 6 weeks and turned 6 shortly after starting. Kindergarten was great for him socially and emotionally. Academically it wasn't so great, but he did have a creative, open ended teacher. My son was at home and learned so much that year before kindergarten. Looking back, we were "unschooling". A year earlier, for him it wouldn't have great either way. We're homeschooling now, so you can see where that ended for us!

You might want to pursue testing if you really think you need the evidence to get the accommodations and entry you want. Although, not every school will except outside testing. Maybe even ask the school if they would be willing to do testing.

We went throught the exact same thing. At the time, we knew our ds was bright, but we didn't realize he was gifted. We just thought most kids were like that! This was PK4, and the school asked us to repeat PK4 a second year. We agreed b/c of "emotional immaturity" and were assured that they'd differentiate the curriculum for him. That never happened, and the inattention and emotional meltdowns continued. Luckily, that year, the teacher didn't mind his behavior so much (very laid back), but he didn't learn anything! In my personal opinion, if you want a gifted child to mature, you don't put him/her in a group of kids younger than them. Again, just my personal opinion. In KG, we had more of the same b/c ds was bored stiff. No meltdowns (he had gained some self control over the summer in this regard.), but he exhibited significant inattention and talking out in class. The teacher agreed that the curriculum was not a challenge to him, but differentiation nor acceleration were an option in this particular school b/c class sizes had grown so much. We decided we weren't going to pay big bucks for our son to learn nothing and get in trouble all day and pulled him to hs. We did plan for ADHD testing, and then ended up doing gifted testing instead. The psych who did his testing said that he often sees students misdiagnosed with ADHD or just referred to as "emotionally immature" when they are simply unchallenged and gifted. I agree that emotional sensitivity or intensity is not the same as immaturity with these kids. We are homeschooling as well, and I feel that we are having to work extra hard to reverse a major case of underachievement b/c of repeating a grade. If I had it to do again, I would NOT have him repeat. Just my humble opinion and one person's experience, but FWIW...

Oh, I also wanted to add that my ds's behavior is much more mature when he's with older kids than with his peers or younger kids. It's very strange to us b/c when he's with younger children, he actually behaves less maturely than they do. When he's with older kids, he steps right up to their level. It's bizarre.

HTH!
Jen

I definitely agree that if he is in a classroom situation now, I wouldn't have him do the SAME thing again for another year!

We also didn't know anything about the world of gifted until our son was about 3/4ths through kindergarten and I realized the whole class hadn't jumped 4 grade levels in reading that year.

Our experience was very similar to Jen's, but at the last moment we decided not to redshirt DS, who is now 12 and in 7th grade. I believe it would have been okay either way. The first few years were tough in some ways - during the first three weeks of kindergarten he fell asleep in school every day (at that point we and the teacher were seriously reconsidering our decision to send him)! And he had some issues with being hard to redirect/talking too much in class about things he is interested in, but I'm not sure how an extra year would have impacted that.

Now he is in 7th and it still affects his school situation in some ways, particularly since MANY people in our district redshirt summer boys, so there are many kids in his class that are more than a year older (and some of the kids his age from preschool are now in 6th). But academically he is doing great, is in GATE and all the things that go along with being a smart kid.

Like Jen's DS, my DS is very mature now, so that is no longer an issue. Now he just doesn't like it that he is among the smaller 7th graders!

PM me if you have any questions about our experience

Colinsmum,
His teacher says that as he is already well ahead academically, she will not have enough to keep him busy next year so he willhave to move on to kindergarten but we can think about keeping him another year in KG.

Jojo,
When I asked DS if he finds the school work easy or difficult, he said easy and my gut says No about redshirting.

Kimck,
he is already going to full-day pre-K and we have been thinking of testing him, possibly next summer when he turns 5.

Jen,
What you wrote about your son is what I fear. I sense he is already a bit bored. His teacher did not mention about any meltdowns but said he is more interested in correcting\seeing what other kids are doing rather than doing his own work. At the sametime she also said that he is very focused when he is challenged. Other thing she mentioned is that once he has set his mind on what he wants to do, it is difficult to change his mind and yes she said he is very competitive and that sometimes refelects negatively. She also mentioned about inattention in the class but at the same time also said that he is very bright academically and if he is not paying attention does not mean he is not learning. He sometimes forgets to use his words like saying excuse me instead would use his hands to side the other kids, however at home he always uses "excuse me", "please", "thank you" so I am confused.

In order to correct the existing issues, we don't want to introduce new ones and thats my concern with red-shirting. If he has not been doing great academically, the decision would have been easy.

Grif, he is already going school full-day and thats not an issue, the issue is to challenge the teacher and inattention. and we are not sure if keeping him back another year would help or harm.

That sounds very similar to my DS. We ultimately did opt to send him to K this year. I didn't see him going straight to a full day 1st next year without having gone to K. I think he needs the time to get used to the school before having to go full day.

He is a much different kid than he was at preschool. Where he wouldn't participate there he does participate at K. He actually did really really well the first 8-10 weeks but now he is starting to fidget much more. All along he has had a few emotional breakdowns here and there but his teacher is very good with him and has learned some of his triggers. She knows he doesn't transition well so she makes sure to give warnings before group changes.

Before making a decision one way or another definitely check out the school he would go to. Even DS5s preschool teachers said it was so dependent on the K teacher as to how he would do. Also last year in March I was unsure on whether to send him but by summer I was pretty positive sending him was the right choice. So the next few months may just be all he needs.

Yes, you are correct. We went there with the mindset of advocating subject acceleration but she got me all confused. If this is so further down the road, we wonder why she raised it in the first place. May be she raised it casually and I am taking it too seriously. Don't get me wrong, we like the teacher a lot, she is great, positive and understands him and thats why it got us worried. She actually was very detailed in explaining his progress but my husband and I have been concerned with this suggestion and hence the post. We just hope that things correct themselves given time.

CFK, a lot of people have told me how much they benefited from the "gift of an extra year." I totally agree with you, however, especially if the child is already academically advanced and/or gifted. Maybe it's better for ND children, but if a kid is already ahead, being around even YOUNGER children for a whole year while they learn nothing isn't going to help them mature. They'll mature at their own rate regardless of what grade they are in, so you have to ask are you holding them back for THEIR good or the good of the teacher/other students? They might as well be learning while they mature if you ask me. I do know that some people really worry about their children being ostracized socially b/c of immature behaviors. We found that even the younger children are not accepting of behavior that is highly emotional or of children who frequently are being reprimanded. It's a tough decision, but like I said, if I had it to do over again, I'd choose not to repeat.

My experience, in the three different states in which we've lived, is that it is standard advice for teachers to suggest you redshirt boys with summer birthdays. I've heard this advice offered basically without regard to the actual child the teacher is talking about, and more in regard to their opinion that virtually all boys are socially immature at that age. But that really isn't the case, and I think the advice is way over-used. Sure there are boys that are socially immature, and arguably more boys than girls in this situation. But this is too often used as a blanket statement.

My DS11 has an end-of-July birthday and we sent him at 5 and he did great. My DS(almost 6) was ready for K last year in every way, but we knew they'd never consider early admittance for a BOY with a November birthday, so we didn't pursue it. But as time for K approached we realized at that point that he really did need to be in 1st grade. So he ended up skipping K. He's no more immature than others.

The range of kids' academic and social maturity is so vast in any classroom, that I would hesitate to question your own parental judgement. Maybe see if you can visit a K class where your son would be going to school and see for yourself what the range of emotional maturity is at the beginning of K.

Personally, I think redshirting is a mistake even for most non-gifted kids (summer birthday boys included) within the framework of the current public education system, which tends to discourage advancement beyond age group, and I find "socially mature enough for kindergarten" to be an oxymoron.

As a practical matter, in a typical public school, while it's easy to hold back it can be very difficult to be allowed a grade skip, even to get back to the child's original age group, let alone to accelerate above that.

Mostly, I would not want to sacrifice my child's academic progress, sow the seeds for underachievement, and have him graduate a year later from high school merely to make some kindergarten teacher's job easier. Moreover, I'd rather give the child the opportunity to rise to the occasion - it's hard to predict when huge leaps in development will occur.

An article:
http://www.naecs-sde.org/STILL_Unacceptable_Trends_in_Kinderg.pdf

Here's a related thread: http://giftedissues.davidsongifted....mic_red_shirting_are_they.html#Post44250

that's my two cents

IMHO, if boys who are old enough for school are often/regularly/usually too "socially immature" for school, then the yardstick for measuring what constitutes social immaturity is the problem, not the boys.

All kids are different and all that, but if school is going to be arranged by 12-months of age per grade, without flexibility for grade-skipping and/or subject acceleration or for kids having trouble to be held back without stigma, then the social demands of school need to work for the maturity level of kids who are within that age range.

Sorry, but I always find myself getting a wee bit huffy over this subject because I generally think red-shirting is silly at best and is indicative of problems with our current system at worst.

TOTALLY agree. I think it's sad that some kids get shamed their first year of school and get pigeon holed as a behavior problems. When in reality, their behavior is age appropriate. I think this is an issue for all kids, not just GT kids.

I understand why people make this choice, when faced with a structured, all day kindergarten program with a young, squirmy boy.

kimck - it is sad that some kids get pigeon holed as behavior problems starting in K. And it's especially hard when a girl acts the way a lot of boys do - seems to be more acceptable from boys.

True! We had an interesting K class. I expected my Oct 20 boy to be one of the oldest in his class. Not at all! The oldest child in our class had turned 6 in April.

And totally agree on the girl angle too. We had a girl in my son's kindergarten class that was right in there visiting with the principal on a regular basis. I have a daughter that could easily be in that situation this year in an all day kindergarten (summer birthday). She is sometimes perfectly behaved. But if she can find a partner in crime, she might hop right into that.