Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums GT Research NutureShock-The damage we cause by over-praising

I have seen numerous discussions here on this subject, thought the group would find this article interesting. Curious to know if anyone has read this book yet, the wait at my library is forever long.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=113347007

The days of the so-called "helicopter parent" are numbered � or they should be, according to author Po Bronson. "Sure, he's special. But new research suggests if you tell him that, you'll ruin him. It's a neurobiological fact."

Although the impulse to hover over our kids may stem from the best of intentions, Bronson argues that over-praising and over-nurturing may do more harm than good. His new book NurtureShock: New Thinking About Children expands on a series he wrote with co-author Ashley Merryman for New York magazine, exploring how American pop culture has misread the fine print of parental research.

-Guy

Hi, thanks for this - it looks interesting. Have you read "Punished by Rewards" (Alfie Kohn)? It was recommended to DH and me and although we never read all the way through it, it certainly raised a number of interesting issues and changed the way that we did some things!

Funny -- I don't recall being interviewed by this author. This could have been a discussion about our son.

I haven't read the book, although this teaser chapter may prompt me to do so (if for no other reason than to learn about the recommended antidote).

I think we've instinctively avoided the "You're so smart" mantra, but he still gets a large dose of it from everyone else with whom he comes into contact. If the research outlined in this book is correct, then I assume the external praise is having some negative effect, but there's not much we can do about that, is there?

I've got to stop reading all this research. Sometimes it just makes my head POUND!

I've got one of these kids too. The Optimistic Child also deals with this issue, and includes results of school experiments in which some children were used as the control group and others had the importance of effort drummed into them, with positive results.

lol, exactly. Figured many of us could relate to this

How much of it is praise and how much of it is the nature of the gifted child. When so many things come easy for a child w/little or no struggle it makes sense then when something doesn't come so easy that child may not want to do it. Goes back to perfectionism. If they can't do it perfect they don't want to do it. Our DS6 can't draw a real looking person so he doesn't want to draw at all.

I can honestly say that I received almost no praise growing up (Not that I was put down either, but my father never praised except for very rare off-hand comments), and I had the same issues. While I agree with over-praising being a large issue nowadays, I think this particular dimension of gifted children is not based on that and has been around a lot longer than overpraising issues have been.

Great, now I have something else to worry about! ; )

Thanks for posting the link and I've added it to my library queue. The experiment with the Chinese and American mothers was eye-opening.

The author was interviewed on the Utah Public Radio show called "RadioWest." You can download a free podcast at iTunes. The whole show was very interesting.
It makes me glad that we always rewarded perseverance and effort at least as much as results.

This topic has always interested me. I see a lot of my friends do this and see how it effects their kids. Also what I find interesting is the recent generation that has come into adulthood. These are the kids that all got ribbons during sports events. There was a big push not to have winners and losers to help with their self esteem. Now they are in the workforce and I find it interesting that the human resources departments have had to have new training on how to handle this new generation. The typical structure doesn't work for them. Handle with mittens is fitting for them. I hope we are learning from the recent past. I will definitely look to buy this book. It has peaked my curiosity and I really hope we are not falling into the trap.

Thanks for this tip. I just downloaded the program -- it will give me something to listen to besides the talking heads on the radio.

I was recently reading a book about teaching kids art.... It suggests to say things like "did you had fun with that project?" which makes it more about the childs experience and process rather than the outcome like, "oh what a beautiful picture".

I read an article about this book not too long ago and have since stopped praising results and started praising "effort".

thanks, finally got to listen to it today and now I am even more interested. Received a 30% borders coupon via email so I am hoping to start reading the book this weekend.

I have a different perspective on this phenomenon. For me, it seems possible or even likely that shutting down when something gets hard can be a by-product of the school environment, rather than knowing or having been told that you're bright.

Many gifted kids get by in school with little or no effort because grade-level work is too easy for them. At the same time, ND kids have to struggle frequently to learn the same things. The result is that many gifted kids never develop problem-solving skills that ND kids develop as a matter of course.

The result is that when these gifted kids finally encounter a challenging subject, they have no skills for approaching it. They assume that they aren't as bright as they though because if they were, this would be easy too. After all, everything has always been easy, right? So if they were really smart, algebra/geometry/Moby Dick/etc. would be easy too, right?

In this context, the conclusions that you can draw from studies like the ones described in The Optimistic Child become more nuanced.

Val

This happened to DH - he did very well at an exclusive high school without trying much at all, and then crashed at university when faced with challenges.

On the other hand, I did quite badly at a mediocre high school, and was convinced I wasn't very bright. Because bright kids like school, do the work and get good marks. University (which I scraped into) was a revelation - "Discuss Heidegger's relationship wtih Nazism" and off you go - no more micromanagement, no more "duh" assignments.

Although I certainly hadn't been over-praised, I had never faced intellectual challenges before either. I love the way that no theory is universally applicable.

I'm listening to the audio version know. I thought the gifted stuff was interesting. However, I did have this reaction that was like "not my kid" and "he scores are just to high for this to apply to her."

I'm on the part know about the preschool/kindergarten that promotes executive function. I wish my 2E kiddo had had an opportunity like that!

DD's school has added NurtureShock to their parenting lending library, which is in the lower school lobby. So Its prominently displayed. I know a lot of the teachers and admins read it over the summer as a book club.

On the other hand, the religious education director of our church refuses to read it because of what she read about the race stuff in a Newsweek review. This seems like a very immature response to me. I think the book questions so many of our assumptions that anyone looking after children should read it. I thought as grown ups we could read stuff and decide for ourselves what to believe.

I'm convinced that dd's school and our church will never agree on anything. Blah.

When I complement my kids, I frequently say things like you should feel proud of that, you worked hard on that. I try to let it be about them and not so much about pleasing me.

I agree. I always, always ask, "How do you feel about the job you did?" rather than acting as sole judge and jury for my kids, and I encourage healthy self-pride.

BTW, I also encourage healthy (not perfectionistic) self-criticism where it applies. I ask things like "Anything you'd do differently next time?" I think that their seeing the pros and cons of their own efforts actually helps combat both perfectionism and "coasting."

I just received this book and find the information and research cited very interesting -- certainly worth considering their alternative methods.

I didn't initially realize the book was about more than the praise issue. It challenges many of our society's current positions/behaviors regarding children.

I am surprised that some people have issue with the chapter on race. I found it fascinating. There's a study they cited with preschoolers that I found very thought-provoking. I certainly don't feel the book discussed race in a "racist" way. It does challenge many people's current belief that if you have fully-integrated schools/institutions, and don't ever discuss race, then race will become a non-issue. My understanding is that the authors believe that children naturally notice visible differences between themselves and others (including race, gender, etc...) and tend to group themselves where they feel they belong. The authors suggest it is imperative that discussions about race take place with young children in a positive way in order to avoid issues surrounding racial attitudes.

I would recommend the book as an interesting read for anyone with kids.

thanks for the mini review, I plan to read this over the thanksgiving break.

In the acknowledgments the authors expressed thanks "for encouraging us to 'geek out' in our stories, trusting that readers would be turned on, not turned off, by the depth of science we covered." I learned about many interesting studies I hadn't been aware of before reading the book. Bodrova and Leong's Tool Of the Mind work about cognitive self-control was especially intriguing.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/27/magazine/27tools-t.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1

Thanks, inky. That was an interesting article. I thought it was fascinating that the Tools of the Mind kids go through "Make-Believe Play Practice � with the teacher leading the children, step by step, through the mechanics of pretending," because more than once I've invited a kid over hoping they would engage in imaginative play with DS4, only to discover that the other kids didn't have any clue how to pretend.

I think part of the problem is that young kids don't have enough time alone with each other these days. It frustrates me to no end that I'm still expected to accompany DS4 on his playdates and that parents/caretakers insist on being in the room where the kids are playing, so they can constantly supervise and intervene. I was even on one playdate where an adult lectured the kids for starting a game of cops and robbers because "robbers are good people too--just people who made bad decisions in life." Pretend pirate play was similarly squelched. Talk about sucking the fun out of childhood! OK, I'm done ranting now.

kcab, I don't think 'Tools of the Mind' seems new either. It sounds like what moms & dads & children have done forever. Little children mimic their parents. Little girls played with dollbabies; feeding, rocking, & changing them, just like mommy. They prepared food for their dolls and made clothing for them. Little boys wore their daddy's hats & boots; tagged along to the shop or on the farm, watching & trying to do what daddy did. The favorite toys of boys have been things to build with(or tear down!), farm animals, etc.
When you think about it, throwing a bunch of 4 & 5 year olds together with very little adult modeling seems very counter intuitive to teaching & training them to become adults. It sounds like the perfect environment to encourage wild, out of control behavior!
Therapists know the value of play therapy for children, it's about time our educational leaders understand it.

Moms & dads & children have done this forever but unfortunately it's become less common than it used to be and seems undervalued. With busy schedules less time is spent on this type of play. Instead, there's been a greater focus on entertaining kids and using "educational" videos for young brain development.

More children are arriving at school without developing these foundational skills. The great thing about Tools is that it provides impressive data for educational leaders (and hopefully parents) that this is valuable.

Hmmmm, that last quote got me thinking about whether music training would be helpful to increase executive functioning. (There have been studies that show a positive correlation between math achievement & music.) I found this recent article, "Musical expertise, bilingualism, and executive functioning."

I've also reserved NurtureShock from our library, the more I've read this thread, the more I'm interested in what all is covered in it.

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But you have to ask what level of math is being taught,how high is 'high IQ,' how far up 'average' stretchs, and sadly how 'doing well' is defined. If the math is so easy or the bar of 'doing well' is set too low, than maybe we are seeing bored high IQ kids acting out?

Maybe p175 explains all of that, but on the face of it, the above statement has more of a 'but liars can figure' feeling to me.

I think that it's ironic, to say the least, that parent's are getting blamed for 'telling your kid that they are smart' while school get off easy, when they are the main culprit of 'showing' kids that they are 'smart.' Then to get a needed gradeskip, you have to label you kid and advocate, which in some people's eyes, make you a helicopter parent.

hrumph!
Grinity

I hear you Grinity. I couldn't find the paper cited but this article expands on it more than the book. http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=beyond-iq-kids-who-can-focus-on-task-do-better-math


I see helicopter parenting as doing things for children that they should be doing for themselves, not letting them learn from their mistakes, and giving them the impression they don't need to work because they are smart. This type of parenting handicaps the child into being trapped in the fixed mindset and the accompanying negatives Dweck describes in Mindset: sticking with easier puzzles instead of trying a harder one, not taking a class that can help you in the long run but may lower your GPA in the short run, looking for a mate who puts you on a pedestal instead of one who challenges you to be a better person.

Unfortunately the helicopter parent label is thrown around to undermine almost any involved parent.

My thoughts exactly!!!

Thanks for sharing this link rdr.
I've known that many times gifted kids sleep more than average, but I've always heard it was because thinking and focusing burns calories. I've also heard that when learning another language you know you're getting it when you start dreaming in it.
That is fascinating that kids spend 1/4 of the time they sleep processing what they've learned from short term to long term memory, and adults only 1/10th of the night. No wonder when I study something too much I start to dream about it.

This is something I've been mulling over that pertains to the Nurtureshock book.

DS7 started doing algebra last year at age 6. He was good with it (at least the first several chapters of Ed Zacarro), but because we did very little formal math (he hated drills), he had gaps which were not addressed. I started to see a pattern of resistance when we had to go backwards to clarify earlier concepts because in his mind, he had moved on. I've always been careful how I speak to him and realized that perhaps, I had unwittingly made a subtle distinction and he had latched on to it.

I wonder how common this is with gifted kids. They have terrific conceptual ability especially at the higher level, and they're masters at reading parental nuances. So subconsciously, they latch on to the fact that "higher is better". Yes I was impressed by him and I wanted to encourage him with praise. But certainly, the outcome was not what I had in mind! He actually resisted learning what he needed. I ended up looking for tough questions at the early middle school level (there are so many Singapore Math challenging books to choose from, and some early Math Olympiad style ones). Luckily, that has succeeded in refocusing him from being grade (and frankly ego) focused to enjoying the thinking process again.

Thanks for the article, Inky.

I'm curious what you guys see at home - do your kids have a great attention span for every area, or is it only for areas of special interest?

I sure would like DS to develop a good attention span across the board, but it's tough because his attention is extremely task specific. He can sit for hours building Lego and recently, Lego Robotics, doing math (particular workbooks only), and reading his science mags; that's about it. If something doesn't catch him, he doesn't bother and has zero bandwidth. I can't ever make him listen to me read books he has no interest in. His eyes will glaze over and in an instant, he's happily in his own world. I can imagine that's what he does at school when the teacher starts to speak!

Perhaps he's still young because I really hope his self regulation can spill over to other areas as he gets older. (I've received a few complaints from his teachers, so this issue is constantly at the back of my mind.)