Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy standardized test

I'm 99.999% sure that my daughter's gifted but, since there's literally *nothing* in her school for gifted kids (we're in Massachusetts)I haven't had her formally tested with an IQ test.

Anyhow, I got the results of her Sanford 10th ediition test back. She took it at the end of 2nd grade. She's now in third grade. Out of 10 scores, 7 range in the 99% percentile. In one of the subtests, reading vocabulary, she scored in the 88th percentile which gave her a Stanine of 7. On math problem solving she scored in the 8th stanine with a 94th percentile and on listening she scored in the 8th stanine in th 94th percentile.

Her lexile measure was 1095, which puts her reading comprehension firmly in the 9th grade level.

Anyways, I was speaking to the adjustment counselor at her school who said that, based on the test, she's "very bright" but not "gifted".

Can anyone help me here? According to the test her reading comprehension is at a 9th grade level (that's a conservative estimate) and on all of the major tests she scored in the 99 percentile band other than math listening where she was in the 94th. She did score in the 88th for vocabulary but that was only with getting one question wrong out of 30. And reading vocabulary was a subtest, not a major heading.

I hope that this is not too confusing. I'm really struggling with this as I want her to start being challenged at some point.

I've always assumed that she was gifted. She is a 'textbook case' with the perfectionism, sensitivity, near photographic memory, etc. I really want her teachers to recognize this. Any input/advice would be appreciated.

Thanks,
-Ellen

My advice: get a second opinion from a qualified, independent professional (i.e., one not employed by the school district).

And trust your instincts about your daughter.

Just to clarify: I didn't have a meeting with the adjustment counselor. I just happened to run into her in the halls when I went into the school. The adjustment counselor grabbed Sophie's file and looked at her test and made the "very bright" assumption within literally one minute.

That test seemed to meet the gifted qualifications to me, as far as they're tested in her school. That's why I'm confused.

Based soley on the fact that she scored in the 9th grade for reading comprehension and in the 99% in 7 out of 10 tests.

Sometimes I get the feeling that it's seen as 'bragging' and rude to bring up a very smart child's needs yet if you had someone that needed special help, it would be attended to ASAP. I feel like I was being brushed off and that, according to even just that test alone, Sophie had needs that the school wasn't fulfilling. Yet the adjustment counselor has me confused.

According to what I've read, they don't have to score in 99 percentile in every section and subsection, just in the major sections, which she did.

Am I wrong? I'm feeling very overwhelmed by all of this.

-Ellen

Ellen, I feel your pain... I have an almost 4 year old son. I have been trying to get some help from the local elementary school to try and challenge him before he goes to school. He was born in Dec. so he won't be in first grade until he is almost 7 so I have 3 more years. When I try to speak to the "experts" they have told me they can't test him (okay but I just want some advise and direction.). They act as if I'm bragging but I have made it very clear that I am asking for help!!!! He just started pre-school and I told them he can read. So I pick him up on Thursday and they ask me "Did you know he can read whole books?' Well YES. I feel if my son could throw a football 20' everyone would be impressed, but because he's just incredibly smart I'm showing him off.

I would see if they have any programs at the local colleges. William & Mary has a program here that I have enrolled my son in. Good Luck!

Dottie,
I'm so glad that you're familiar with the Sanford 10! I'd really appreciate your opinion (and anyone else's) on this. I'll go into more detail.

We have 10 subtests on our report. Here's the rundown of how Sophie did:
1. Total reading: 97/100 this was in the 99 percentile

Under this total reading score were three indented scores, word study skills, reading vocabulary and reading comprehension

2. On the word study skills: 29/30 This was the 99th percentile.
3. reading vocabulary: 29/30 this put her in the 88th percentile
4. reading comprehensison 39/40, which put her in the 99th percentile.

5. Total mathematics: 71/74 which put her in the 99th percentile
(Under total mathematics was math problem solving and math procedures)
6. math problem solving 41/44 which put her in the 94th percentile
7. math procedures: 30/30 which put her in the 99th percentile.
8. Language: 48/48 which put herr in the 99th percentile
9. Listening 36/40 which put her in the 94th percentile
10. partial battery 252/262 which put her in the 96-99th percentile.

And her Lexile measure was 1095 which, according to what I've read, puts her reading comprehension at the 9th grade level. A good friend of mine who happens to be a teacher, said that this lexile score is very significant and, from what I've researched about it, is pretty indicative of what level that she is comprehending at. Maybe I'm wrong on this, who knows. The whole test result sheet is rather confusing to me, LOL!

Anyhow, I'd love to get her IQ tested but don't seem to be able to get anyone to do it here. It's very difficult unless there's some behavioral problem that warrants further testing, etc. and, even if she was tested, they have nothing that I'm aware of for kids like her anyways. Frustrating!

Rocksea,
I know just what you mean about the bragging and, to some extent, I can understand it. But, at the same time, our kids have needs just as much as someone with learning disabilities do and we, as parents, want their needs met. It's very difficult to not feel like you're bragging. I have a really hard time with this too!

It's really difficult with my daughter because, I feel that she sticks out like a sore thumb. She's so intense and creative and well, unique. It's hard for her to find peers. She's a great kid. I just really want the school to recognize that she needs special help too, ya know? But, because she's well behaved and does well, they don't see a problem. And, whenever I try to bring it up, I feel like they think that I'm either exaggerating or bragging so I guess that I've learned to not talk about it.

So, when she got the test results back, ones that they go by here, I thought I could just use that as sort of "proof". But, sometimes I think that I'm wrong about the whole thing. That yes, she did everything early, freaky early at times and yes, she hummed note for note tunes from classical music after hearing it a couple of times at a year and a half, said her first word at *3* months, talking at 6 mos, taught self to read at 4 yrs and can read literally ANYTHING with comprehension but maybe I'm wrong about her. Maybe I am bragging. It's hard to know but in my heart I feel that I know. That I've always known with her. I just so much want the school with her on this one. To help her develop just as they would the other kids who need 'special help'.

-Ellen

Dottie, Thanks so much for posting the talent info. I will look into it.

You are absolutely, in no way whatsoever, deflating my sails. In fact, I'm so glad that you understand. I can't tell you how good that feels right now.

I understand what you are saying about the Lexile measures. In this state apparently each book is assigned a Lexile score and, Sophie's able to read and comprehend much more advanced stuff than what's currently in her classroom. I personally don't need a test score to tell me this, though. We had a hard time with this last year as she was reading adult stuff ( I can't monitor it all, and she reads so darn fast that by the time I've gotten to it, it's read). She was getting anxiety as she was able to "get" stuff that she wasn't emotionally able to handle. Anyhow, this is another topic altogether (I may write about this later...)

My daughter turned 9 two weeks ago. She took the Stanford exam at the end of second grade.

I double checked the math procedures section on her test and it does span to the 99 percentile. Now I'm wondering if I'm reading it wrong because the National PR-S is 97-9. Does that mean that it's the 97th percentile? The percentile band does go all the way to the 99th percentile.

How old is your son? Why does he sound so much like my daughter? When did you find out that he was g/t?

I'm not sure what our school offers. The whole thing is kind of hush hush'ed. They are phenomenal with students with disabilities but, with this stuff, I get the feeling that I should just be quiet and be greatful that I have a smart child. Nothing is made known. You have to dig for info here. I've never heard of those tests so I'm thinking that they don't have 'em. I'll see if I can find out.

Oh, and by the way, I know that the Sanford is not a measure of either IQ or giftedness but just thought that it may warrant further investigation since she scored so well. But, like I said, noone said a thing to me about it. If I want anything done, I have to be forceful about it and I really, really don't want to be the obnoxious mom who the school runs when they see coming and then have it taken out on my kids by the staff. I feel that I need to approach this in a way that is win-win. Just not too sure how to do this or if I even have a case for it based on what I know intuitively, how she is at home and her test scores.

-Ellen

I also have three children, aged 9, 6 and almost 5. The other two are very intelligent, possibly gifted as well but not as obviously 'out there' as Sophie appears to be.

I wouldn't have her jump a grade because she's small for her age as it is (and *very* sensitive about it...). I want her in with children her own age but it would be nice to have *something* for her as, like I said, she's very unique and I can tell how hard she wants to be like the other kids. She does finally have one friend who is extremely intelligent but finding friends has been difficult.

When you say that tfurther testing should be done for those in the top 95%, were you referring to the top 5% of their *total* score or if they scored in mostly the top 5%? Because, as ridiculous as this is, if you factor in the one problem that Sophie got wrong on vocabulary, that would bring her entire test result score down to I believe below the 95th. I haven't had a chance to look into it yet. Have been busy with the kids here putting on a lip synch show for me.

PA sounds so much better than MA as far as gifted ed goes. From what I've heard and read, Massachusetts is probably the worst state for g/t. You wouldn't think so with all of the great schools (Harvard, MIT, Dartmouth, etc.) but it is.

Last year, Sophie's teacher wanted to have Sophie tested but it never happened. There was no follow through. Noone thought it was important enough. I'm not sure how to proceed here or if there's even anything that I can do. I seem to keep hitting a brick wall with this.

-Ellen

Please, by all means continue being a board hog! I can't tell you how much this is helping me.

I'm sure you know how hard it is to talk to other moms (and dads) about this. Just finding somemone who understands means so much.

As for the grade skipping, it doesn't seem the right thing for her. She's finally made a couple of friends in her grade. One who appears gifted as well. And, while she intellectually advanced, socially is a whole 'nuther story! And, when I say that she's small, I mean she's always one of shortest girls in her class and she is ultra sensitive about this. But I can completely understand you wanting this for your son. It seemed like the best idea for him from what you wrote.

I know that this does not have to be this difficult. Not sure how, but feel like if we feel like this, other people, and teachers, must sense the unfairness of this. That those in the top rung academically don't get what they need to be challenged and to *learn*. My friend Maura, the teacher, said that teachers in her school talk about this too. So it's at least talked about in our schools. But there is literally no funding for g/t education here. Nothing, nada, zip. So, even if she's tested, not sure what that would do.

The thing with Sophie is that every teacher that she has had up to now has commented on how bright she is. Last year's teacher called her "scary smart". She has eyes that are like laser beams when she's paying attention to something, absorbing it like a sponge. And she is very quiet and endearing. Teachers seem to take to her and want to help out, knowing that she's not learning yet. I feel like if I can somehow use that to my advantage, that we can finally get somewhere. Not sure how to do this, though. Ok, think I'm rambling now. I think I need sleep, LOL!

-Ellen

Suggestions....
I never fit in with my peers. I then got involved in non-acedemic activities; chorus, karate, gymnastics, team sports, etc.

I was also told by some educators that I need to stretch his lessons at home. For example in preschool he is learning 2D shapes, so they told me to show him 3D shapes. Talk about volume. Do more in depth lessons at home. I realize it is A LOT more work, but it will keep her interested.

Welcome EllenC,

I'm glad you found us! Isn't Dottie terrific with those number interpretations. I second her reccomendation to do the talent search and above level test, with a twist.

If possible, sign her up for the "correct" above level test, and also for the next grade group level up. My hunch is that as gifted as she is, she'll top out the test that was planned to be for her age group. I don't know if you'll be allowed to start with double testing, but if you are, try to get both done this year. Another tip, as long as you are bringing DD9, sign the other kids up as well if you can afford it. The talent searches are a bargan!

OK - here's my take on your situation. You feel that the school should be doing more for your daughter, and want to come in armed with statistics that prove your point. You want the school to look at the scores, and start looking more deeply at your DD to see where the problems are. I think you've going about it backwards.

Schools like to problem solve. You have to be the one to highlight the problems. Later you'll also be suggesting solutions, such as distance learning during the school day. Collect some DD stories going that highligh your concerns. Put it in writing and request testing in writing. Make an appointment to speak to the teacher, and then make an appointment to speak to the adjustment counselor or the principle if your concerns are not met. ((What is an adjustment counselor?))

You don't need an IQ score,(except to qualify for Davidson, which I encourage you to do) and if you are lucky, you may not have to pay for one. Maybe the school will and maybe the school won't. Your written request is your best bet. I say you don't need scores, because teachers don't really "get" IQ or Achievment scores - they get work samples. Do a little afterschooling with your DD and collect some of the work she does at home so you can show the contrast between what she is being asked to do at school and what she enjoys doing at home.

Are you located in Western Mass. or are you close to Boston? Are there any schools for gifted kids within a reasonable driving range? Another way to "check" if your kid is gifted is to apply to independent schools and talk to folks there. Ask them what they would do with a child like yours who yearns to learn more. (Even if you never intend to switch, it's about 10% of the cost of IQ testing out of pocket. If you do decide to pay, please go to one of the top 5 in the country type places, not a local tester. You've already said enough to make me believe that you'd be waisting your time, money and mental energy to work locally with someone has "some" gifted experience.) You may find that your medical insurance covers the testing.

Again - write it out, what are your concerns? Tell a few stories that highlight them. What do you want from a school? If you are locked into public school, then I urge you to consider grade skipping as part of the package. Here's a though experiment: If you daughter had a disability, and the school offered her a program that was proven to help other kids like her, would you decline on the basis that it would call attention to her height and that she has finally make a few friends in the regular program? See where I'm heading with this? You can request "A Nation Decieved" for free online to help you start thinking about these things. Yes, your daughter will need "differentiation" and "enrichment" once she is within one or two grades of where she really needs to be, but keeping her with her agemates all day long is a set up for her to never fully learn social skills. This kind of learning takes lots and lots of practice, and she needs to be able to practice on kids who she can be herself with. Otherwise she gets practice in masking her true self in order to have friends. This is the situation my DS10 has been in for his entire school life so far.

I wish I could tell you that there is a good choice for your daughter. You can move to Nevada and attend the Davidson Institue where she can be with agemate who are appropriate peers. You can homeschool. You can send her to community college. You can grade skip. You can look for an alternative school setting - are you close to Sudbury? That's an idea. ((BTW - I really like the book, Picky Parent's guide to choosing a school K-6))

You may be feeling very unformed in your concerns. If that's it, tell us what books you've read and we'll suggest some more. Mass has a gifted association - join up ASAP. There are some great Moms of PG kids in Mass.

Have you found SENG and Hoagiesgifted.org?


It's really late here, so I hope I'm sounding warm and loving. Acutally I'm in kind of a self-pitying mood, so if it's leaking through, it isn't you, it's me, but in true Gifted fashion, I want to help and inform sooo badly that I can't leave it alone.

Love and More Love,
Trinity

Ellen, has this year's teacher said anything about Sophie?

And has Sophie said expressed any dissatisfaction with school (the academic aspects), such as saying it's too easy/slow, etc.?

Having just taken our daughter (age 5, 1st grade) out of one elementary school only 3 weeks into the year, and moved her to a different elementary school within the same district, I've come to one conclusion: if we're going to keep her in public school, we are going to have to hand-pick a teacher every year who is willing to do *something* different for her, and make advance arrangements directly with that teacher.

This seems to be the only way to get anything different for our daughter. Last year we talked to the district about testing her--they refused, because she wasn't "struggling." So, we had our own testing done. I then spent countless hours over the past year discussing DD with the principal of the first elementary school, where my older two children attended, and thought we had a wonderful placement for her this year in what was supposedly a "multi-age" classroom. Principal seemed to understand, be on our side, etc. But when school started and we had a meeting with DD's teachers about doing a single subject acceleration, they were absolutely unwilling to do anything different with DD in the classroom, or to acknowledge that she needed anything different--this is even with professional test results in front of them. And the principal who I thought was supportive sat there and said nothing. I've also talked to the district's curriculum director and the ISD's "advanced and accelerated" coordinator, and the best they could do was offer suggestions on "enrichment" to do at home.

Luckily I found a teacher at another elem. school in the district who said she believed in differentiated curriculum and would let DD do some accelerated and independent work in the classroom. I talked to the techer first, then talked to the principal who, while not a big help in terms of ideas/options for supporting DD, was happy to have another warm body in the school to bring up his enrollment numbers. And he will not interfere with what this teacher will do for DD.

It's not the *ideal* situation for DD. I know this school and this district will never do a grade skip and probably will never let DD do subject acceleration in another teacher's room at a higher grade level. I know this teacher doesn't really truly "get it" and that DD will have to sit through some boring material she's already mastered. In most subjects she still will have to do the same curriculum as the rest of her class, even though she could be working ahead in every subject. I know that a lot of her potential will not be realized, and that saddens me.

HOWEVER--it is a better situation than what we had! And DD seems much happier, so I am grateful for anything positive. In Reading, at least, she is able to do accelerated and independent work. The teacher started her out at a Grade 4 level in Reading homework and said she won't have to do "reading group" with the rest of the class. I am hopeful that as the year goes on, this teacher will be willing to make some other accommodations for DD.

As for next year, I have no idea if we'll be able to find a second grade teacher who will work with us in the same way. Finding a good teacher might mean changing schools again. There are four elementary schools within our district, and I will be talking to 2nd grade teachers at every one if I have to! Our back-up plan is to move her back to the private school where she attended Kindergarten. I know they would be willing to let her work ahead there, because they already have kids who are doing subject acceleration (in another teacher's room with the older class).

Sorry I rambled on and on. My point was/is, maybe you should schedule a meeting with Sophie's teacher and tell her your concerns. Do you think she would be receptive to doing anything different for Sophie? I think that's your best place to start, even before testing.

Thanks for the compliment, Dottie! So tell us a bit about your oldest daughter..... (wink)

Seriously, I don't know my own IQ, and have been told that I'm "nicely gifted but nothing amazing" ((Hi Mom!)) I try to use this forum to develop a clearer vision of myself as a gifted person as well as of my son. I get the same intensity jags as other gifted people, the same need for putting my gift into service, the same need for recognition for a job well done, the same somewhat scary feeling of having lots of information at my mental and spiritual fingertips and trying to harness it into my physical fingertips. For me, the very act of harnessing my mind and spitting out the advice, is a door into my son's world. So I try here to throw off the filters of the world I was forced to contend with as a child, and use self-designed filters in the service of getting the better world, that I can almost taste, for all of us.

...and yeah, I do scare myself in the process, but I love listening to you all, and thinking about you and your families. I try to cut gifted adults some slack, knowing so well what most of us had to contend with, and I hope you all are cutting me that slack to - LOL - I sure need it sometimes!

Love and More Love - Really Big!
Trinity

Trinity, I'm going to look into the talent searches and the above level tests for Sophie.

You are right: I am feeling kind of unformed as to what I want for her. I'm leaning towards supplementing at home and trying to find a 'peer' group for her. There is a school for the gifted (Sage school) that's an hour from where we live. I'm going to look into that, even if it's just to meet others like her.

I did find SENG and Hoagies.
And yes, you sound incredibly warm and loving, BTW!

Galaxy Girl, No, this year's teacher has yet to comment on Sophie other than to tell me that she is very shy. Actually, her teacher is a former Title one teacher (a teacher who works with academically challenged students) from first grade. They moved her up to third grade in an integrated classroom. This is her first time in 3rd grade. There are lots of kids in her class who need special help just to keep up so I think that the teacher is just glad that she doesn't need to do more for Sophie. I'm hoping that this is not the case but it appears to be and, in a class with 22 students, a big chunk of which have problems even keeping up, she's probably doing all she can. But I plan on having a meeting with her soon to discuss my concerns. I think that she will be somewhat receptive to my concerns simply because she seems to be a caring individual. I hoping this is not too naive of a view. We'll see.

Seems like you've done a lot for your DD and that is great. You seem to really be doing all that you can for her.

Dottie, I'd love to attend a Parent Advocation class too!

Thanks,
-Ellen

Ellen,
I have found that teachers that choose to work at Title One schools are generally very sensitive to kids with special needs. My daughter goes to a Title One school (the only one in our district). The teachers I have met there truly have a special calling. I have talked with other parents of gifted kids in our district about their schools. From what I can tell the teachers at my daughter's school are much more open to differentiation.

If you think the teacher is overloaded, you might be able to think of some ways for her to differentiate the curriculum that are easy to implement. If your daughter can work independently, the teacher might be open to her doing some independent computer work or projects. I recommend having some suggestions ready since you know your daughter better than anyone else.

Summer

Hi Ellen,
I looked at Sage School's website Gifted information and am very impressed - http://www.sageschool.org/gifted.shtml It sounds to me like they "get" gifted kids. I'll bet they would be a good resource for you.

I think that looking for a peer group and talent search, and "afterschooling" are good places to start. LOL - if you find a peer group for dd, you will probably also find a support group for you in their parents! What do you think of the idea of DD taking the Explore? It must seem so amazing, but honestly, from her developmental milestones that sounds right to me.

As far as supplimenting at home, I'm re-labling it afterschooling because 1) that gives you acess to your local homeschooling community and 2) that gives the activity you do with your daughter the respect it deserves and 3)because if you daughter responds well to you as learning partner, then it's likely that your work together will be the main course, and the 9-3 will be the suppliment.

So, what does she want to learn? What do you feel comfortable teaching? How does she like to learn? In what form does she like to express what she's learned? Does she have a special interest that can be harnessed towards a learning goal? How does she respond when facing a academic challenge - here's a warning - if she has never faced an academic challenge before, and you introduce one, be prepared for some feelings to bubble up to the surface. You may see more intensity than you are used to seeing.

The wonderful thing about afterschooling is that you can truly follow the child's lead. Keep your eyes open for places where she is so used to "instant learning" that she might give up well before she has challenged herself. That's where the supported push comes in. Most of all, have fun! Learning together is a fine way to pass the time.

There are so many books availible to Parents of Gifted Children. Are you reading one now? Do you have a next on in mind?

Here's a link to "Mrs. Hoagies" Amazon list. Friends, are there any books you would add to Gifted 101?
http://www.amazon.com/gp/richpub/li...detail_fullview_cf_1/102-2521882-7546561

Ellen -
I just remembered that you are near one of my favorite professionals - Aimee Yermish
da Vinci Learning Center
aimee@davincilearning.org
978-461-4815
If you want F2F, professional advice, she is very wise.
If you are more of a do-it-yourselfer, send us more questions !
Me Again

I can't add much to what has been said already - just my personal opinion - pursue individual testing if you want really meaningful results.

Mary